Letter of Congratulations 50th Anniversary

From: John Hutnyk via Vsg <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 2, 2025 12:29 PM
To: Diane Fox <dnfox70@gmail.com>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu; Christoph Giebel <giebel@uw.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] US independence day

Hi

Ahh, thanks all. I suspected it was something I needed to know. So keeping it relevant to this list then, am happy to see any discussion of the merit of dating independence from when the coloniser recognised... And that I realise of course Christoph's point. 

J

John Hutnyk – Global Inquiries and Social Theory Research Group, Faculty of Social Science and Humanities, Ton Duc Thang University, Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam.

From: Hue-Tam Tai via Vsg <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 2, 2025 10:42 AM
To: bill@billhayton.com; turnerbn@uw.edu
Cc: vsg@uw.edu; giebel@uw.edu
Subject: [Vsg] US independence day

Adding To Bill Hayton

And many slaves decided to join them thinking their chance of gaining their freedom was greater with the loyalists than with the Americans.

Hue-Tam Ho Tai
Harvard University emerita

From: Hue-Tam Tai via Vsg <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 2, 2025 10:18 AM
To: bill@billhayton.com; Bich-Ngoc Turner <turnerbn@uw.edu>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu; giebel@uw.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] US independence day

I believe the VSG listserv is a good platform for debating--courteously and with an open mind-- all sorts of scholarly topics. I was just opining that a letter of congratulations is not the appropriate form for doing so.

That said, please carry on discussing.

Some groups in Vietnam have decided to commemorate Ho Chi Minh's death according to the lunar calendar--which is the traditional way--to be able to commemorate it on 2 September, the actual day of his death, not 3 September.

Hue-Tam Ho Tai
Harvard University emerita

From: billhayton via Vsg <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 2, 2025 9:27 AM
To: Bich-Ngoc Turner <turnerbn@uw.edu>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu; Christoph Giebel <giebel@uw.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] US independence day

Actually the Treaty of Paris wasn’t in the name of ‘Great Britain’ but in the name of:

"George the third, by the Grace of God, King of Great Britain, France & Ireland, Defender of the Faith, Duke of Brunswick and Lunebourg, Arch Treasurer and Prince Elector of the Holy Roman Empire &c.,”

- George III was still titled 'King of France' in 1783 based on his ancestors’ possessions but somehow that didn’t prevent him signing a treaty with the actual King of France.

I guess the treaty could also be regarded as the Partition of North America, since the (White) Canadians didn’t want to be liberated…

Bill Hayton

From: Christoph Giebel via Vsg <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 2, 2025 9:23 AM
To: John Hutnyk <johnhutnyk@tdtu.edu.vn>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Letter of Congratulations

John, I use the Gregarian Calendar of Granted Independence (COGI), used primarily in Paris for treaty purposes.
😉

********************
Christoph Giebel, PhD (he), Assoc. Professor, International Studies and History

University of Washington,  Seattle, WA 98195-3650,  USA,  < giebel@uw.edu >

********************

From: Bich-Ngoc Turner via Vsg <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 2, 2025 9:10 AM
To: John Hutnyk <johnhutnyk@tdtu.edu.vn>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu; Christoph Giebel <giebel@uw.edu>
Subject: [Vsg] US independence day

Hi John, I think Christoph referred to the Treaty of Paris on September 3, 1783, which was when US independence was officially recognized by Great Britain. 

Bich-Ngoc Turner, PhD (she/her)
Associate Teaching Professor, Vietnamese Language and Literature, University of Washington

206-221-3362  |  turnerbn@uw.edu  |  235 Gowen Hall

Create your own email signature

From: John Hutnyk via Vsg <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 2, 2025 9:04 AM
To: Christoph Giebel <giebel@uw.edu>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Letter of Congratulations

Hi Christoph

Which calendar are you using?

> tomorrow, Happy 242nd US Independence Day!

I'm unaware of this anniversary, as opposed to 04/07, but then I agree this list might not best be used for history spats. 

All else in your post I see as to the point, but for HCMC we've had too much rain this evening, and still have, so could hear fireworks but not see anything. 

Happy anniversary anyway, whenever you celebrate. 

Cheers comrades

John

From: Pierre Asselin via Vsg <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 2, 2025 8:53 AM
To: Christoph Giebel <giebel@uw.edu>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Letter of Congratulations

Beloved and Cherished Comrades:

Reflecting on 2 September 1945, I'm seeing a parallel to 4 July 1776.  Both declarations of independence are aspirational.  That is, at the time they are made, neither the DRVN nor the US actually has independence.  Each will have to fight for it.  The Americans will do so for seven years, the Vietnamese -- at least those loyal to Ho's cause -- will do so for 30 years.  Thus, neither country is actually celebrating "independence day" on their national day, but the expression of a desire for popular sovereignty and national unity under a certain regime, which materialized at a later time.

Did I just blow everyone's mind?  FYI, VSG can address its letter of congratulations to "Prof. Dr. Pierre Asselin," as Vietnamese academic etiquette dictates.  

To my friends and colleagues in Vietnam, Happy National Day!!  To my Vietnamese friends in San Diego, beer is on me if you feel like drinking your sorrow away....

Pierre    

Pierre Asselin

Professor of History - Dwight E. Stanford Chair in US Foreign Relations

San Diego State University

History Department

5500 Campanile Dr.

San Diego, CA 92182-6050

From: Christoph Giebel via Vsg <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 2, 2025 8:23 AM
To: vsg@uw.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Letter of Congratulations

People should be able to hold several insights, even opposing or contradictory ones, at the same time. For example, one can appreciate the immense contributions of the French Revolution of 1789 while being aware of all the attendant violence and upheaval in its wake. Don't get me started on the perennially broken promises and on-going betrayals of the American Revolution, but its core concepts are alive and influential.

And so, on this 80th anniversary of Viet Nam's Declaration of Independence, amid the festive mood in the streets of Huế and fireworks as I write, I can see the Declaration for what it is--a historic document transcendent of its immediate context and speaking to a larger moment in time like few other documents in the 20th century--while also being clear-eyed about the propensity towards authoritarianism and oppression in both the founding generation and their heirs. They certainly could dish it out as much as they took it. (And on this list which lately has had a tendency towards very un-nuanced victim-perpetrator portrayals, it bears reminding that revolutionaries also "took it" in copious measures.)

In its unapologetic and unilateral abolition of colonialism, of White supremacy and systematic capitalist looting, the Declaration spoke in the universal language of the colonized, long robbed of their dignity, labor, and lives. Its radical, self-empowering repudiation of colonialism and of enforced racial and economic hierarchies did not have to ask for permission from anyone, for it reclaimed inalienable rights and equal worth. And, of course, such audacity provoked a years-long violent reaction from Western (neo-)colonial powers who could only conceive of a world where they gave the orders or "granted" favors and expected only submission and gratitude in return. To turn this power relationship on its head and imply, as is being done in some of the contributions here, that the decades-long wars were started by those behind 2 Sep. 1945, is quite remarkable.

I continue to be entirely unconvinced by arguments that "real" Vietnamese independence was achieved through negotiations with the colonizers years later. Such arguments submit to the colonizer's "logic" that independence is something to be "granted" out of some benevolent impulse, something that is actually France's to possess and bestow. It is also breathtakingly ahistorical, ignoring that France was forced to negotiate (with Vietnamese it found acceptable) precisely only because the war it started to retain colonial domination was not being won. More broadly, it is blind to the realities of decolonization after WW2, where Western powers endlessly manipulated the process to retain neo-colonial privileges, entrapped formally independent states in debt dependencies, were violently hostile to independence models outside their control, and intervened or waged war in former colonial places in serial fashion.

So I enjoyed witnessing Independence/National Day today, the "old trope" per our colleague Pierre Asselin, and am pretty sure that many among the revelers celebrated 80 years of independence with genuine pride and may nonetheless still hope for a different government, more rights, and the release of Huy Đức and others.

Christoph

PS: And tomorrow, Happy 242nd US Independence Day!

********************
Christoph Giebel, PhD (he), Assoc. Professor, International Studies and History

University of Washington,  Seattle, WA 98195-3650,  USA,  < giebel@uw.edu >

********************

From: Hue-Tam Tai via Vsg <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Monday, September 1, 2025 10:02 PM
To: vsg@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Letter of Congratulations

I think a letter of congratulations is not the appropriate setting for a history lesson  or debate, whatever opinion one might hold. It should be short (and perhaps sweet?)

On a personal note, my father happened to be in Hanoi on September 2, 1945, having arrived there in late May. His companion de route, Ta Thu Thau, stopped by Quang Ngai where he was killed, perhaps on the order of Tran van giau (he denied giving it) or by local cadres (I was told in Hanoi they were fierce and not under leadership control).  My father,who had renounced Trotskyism and Marxism tout court in 1939 owing to his disgust over the Moscow trials and Stalin's betrayal of Spanish anarchists, was targeted by Communists. He recalled Duong Bach Mai arguing "Why is this Trotskyist allowed to walk freely?" But my father had the protection of Ung van Khiem, his College de Can Tho schoolmate (they were expelled because of the same infraction--an underground paper that lampooned their teachers).  Vu Dinh Hoe mentioned in his memoir (2003) that my father was one of three signatories of a letter urging Bao Dai to resign in favor of the Viet Minh. Phan van Hum, the fellow Trotskyist who had shared my father's cell in Con Dao, survived that hell where their friend Nguyen An Ninh died of dysentry along with 400 out of 600 political prisoners only to be executed by the Viet Minh in 1946.

I recall hearing that audio copies of Ho Chi Minh's speech were long kept out of circulation because his Nghe An diction did not sound properly northern (it sounds more "southern). Anybody heard the same thing?

Hue-Tam Ho Tai
Harvard University emerita

From: Carl Robinson via Vsg <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Monday, September 1, 2025 8:55 PM
To: Cau Thai <cvthai75@gmail.com>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu; VSG <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Letter of Congratulations

Some of you might be interested in my Substack take on the 80th in my usual opinionated style.  

Vietnam's 80th what? - Carl Robinson

From images today, I'd say the 50th in Saigon (oops, HCM City) back in April, was a lot more colourful, just the setting for starters. It takes a lot of people to fill Ba Dinh Square!   

Best regards,

Carl Robinson

USOM/USAID '64-68; AP Saigon '68-75

Convenor:  Google Group 'Vietnam Old Hacks'

NSW, Australia. 

From: Cau Thai via Vsg <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Monday, September 1, 2025 7:30 PM
To: Lady Borton <ladyborton@gmail.com>; Mc Hale, Shawn <mchale@gwu.edu>; VSG <vsg@u.washington.edu>; vsg@uw.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Letter of Congratulations

Dear List,

This letter contains many words, yet it seems to lack something fundamental: truth.

1. In the months surrounding Ho Chi Minh's 1945 Declaration of Independence, quoting the Americans and the French on peoples living “happy and free", “born free and with equal rights", Ho's followers killed thousands of fellow patriots who did not share their vision for national independence. In an interview with Guerin Daniel in Paris in the summer of 1946, when asked about the fate of Ta Thu Thau, Ho responded with chilling finality: “Mais tous ceux qui ne suivront pas la ligne tracée par moi seront brisés” (“But all those who do not follow the line drawn by me will be broken").

2. Ho’s party subsequently led the nation into a 30-year war in which roughly two million lives were lost at the hands of fellow countrymen. After the conflict ended in 1975, instead of pursuing national reconciliation, they followed a policy that sent hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese to re-education camps and caused hundreds of thousands of others to perish at sea attempting to flee the country.

Please note that after WWII, numerous nations regained their independence through peaceful or negotiated means, in stark contrast to Vietnam’s prolonged and violent struggle.

3. Are the Vietnamese in 2025 truly living “happy and free”? The letter's author might consider asking Pham Doan Trang, Pham Chi Dung, Huy Duc, and those who are imprisoned solely for exercising their right to peaceful expression.

Over the past two decades, a growing body of scholarship has offered fresh perspectives on the Vietnam War. In the last five-plus years, social media users in Vietnam have increasingly challenged official narratives. They rely on Vietnamese translations of Western scholarly materials and on other sources to expose the suppressed past. 

In light of these developments, I am afraid that the letter does not accurately represent current realities.

Best,

Calvin Thai

Independent

From: Shawn McHale via Vsg <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Monday, September 1, 2025 12:57 PM
To: Lady Borton <ladyborton@gmail.com>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu; VSG <Vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Letter of Congratulations

Dear all, 

It is worth remembering that at this moment, the Vietnamese state has imprisoned individuals, like Huy Đức, put there for for expressing their considered opinions. Some are intellectuals. Some belong to religious groups. Is this to be celebrated as well? 

I may be biased, but I -- and many others -- see the wars from the so-called "August Revolution" of 1945 to 1975 as the beginning of a civil war wrapped up with a struggle against a foreign powers. We have articulated this view in densely sourced books and articles.  At the same time, we are well aware of Vietnam's successes since 1945. Is this nuanced scholarship irrelevant? It should be clear by now, for example, that the "August Revolution" was far more complex than this short piece suggests.  

 In the end, I do not see the function of this list as praising the Party and the State in Vietnam.  Leave that to others. 

Shawn McHale

George Washington University

(working under the rise of authoritarianism in Washington, DC)

From: Lady Borton via Vsg <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Monday, September 1, 2025 11:14 AM
To: VSG <Vsg@u.washington.edu>; vsg@uw.edu
Subject: [Vsg] Letter of Congratulations

Dear friends and colleagues,

Recently, I was asked to write a Letter of Congratulations to the Party, the State, and the Vietnamese People for the 50th anniversary of Việt Nam's independence.

This pro forma task for many lay outside my experience. I did not know the form.

I realized that, instead, perhaps I could honor the request by summarizing points, which many senior Vietnamese leaders and American scholars might not know:

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RESPECTFULLY SENT TO:         The Vietnamese Communist Party

The State of Việt Nam

The Vietnamese People

Warmest Congratulations on the 80th Anniversary of Việt Nam's August Revolution

and

Việt Nam's Declaration of Independence

With Việt Nam's Declaration of Independence on September 2, 1945, Provisional President Hồ Chí Minh asserted the right for the name "Việt Nam" to appear for the first time on the modern world's political maps. In July and August 1945, he had followed world news on his short-wave radio, the equivalent in his time to our Internet. Hồ Chí Minh knew that Việt Nam was the first colonized nation to stand up against the British, French, and US Colonial Empires. (Yes, the USA had colonies, including the Philippines.) He also knew those three empires sought to re-take and expand the lands they controlled. Hồ Chí Minh surely knew that if Việt Nam succeeded as an independent state, then other colonized nations would follow in demanding their independence.

Here was a huge threat to the 1945 post-World-War-II global power structure.

That threat provoked 45 years (1945-1990) of wars challenging Việt Nam's independence.

The Party, the State, and the Vietnamese People can take pride in their hard-won independence.

Vietnamese can also share pride in their Declaration's opening text, which includes two additional revolutions. Hồ Chí Minh changed his quotation from the US Declaration of Independence. The US text from 1776 reads, "All men are created equal," where "All men" meant "White men of property," that is, "wealthy White men." The US Declaration excludes women, Black people, Brown people, Native Americans, and people of Asian heritage. In contrast, Việt Nam's Declaration states, "Each and every person is born equal." Hồ Chí Minh's Declaration announced two additional revolutions — equal rights for women and equal rights for ethnic-minority Vietnamese.

Việt Nam's endurance, which made this 80th anniversary possible, arose from two other, crucial, but often ignored, National-Day documents:

The Government's Pledge, announced on September 2, laid the foundation for the People's trust:

The Government's Pledge

We, the Provisional Government of the Democratic Republic of Việt Nam, which citizens' representatives attending a congress have established, pledge that:

We will resolutely lead and maintain the foundation of our Homeland's independence and implement the Việt Minh Program, which is returning happiness to the people.

While maintaining our Homeland's independence, we are determined to overcome every difficulty and danger, even if we must sacrifice our lives.

The Citizens' Pledge guaranteed the People's loyalty:

The Citizens' Pledge

We, the Vietnamese people, swear: With one heart, we will support the Provisional Government of the Democratic Republic of Việt Nam and support President HỒ CHÍ MINH. Swear!

We swear: With the Government, we will preserve the right to complete independence for our Homeland and oppose every scheme of invasion, even if we must die. Swear!

I will not be a soldier for the French.

I will not work for the French.

I will not sell food to the French.

I will not guide the French.

                              Swear!

Phạm Hồng Cư (1926-2021) was a Việt Minh Youth Guard on September 2 and among the crowd's thousands who answered the Citizens' Pledge with "Swear!" He described the Vietnamese leadership and the People at that time as "Việt Nam's Pledged Generation." If General Hồng Cư were with us today, he would remind us that the Pledged Generation and their children — a second generation — made this celebration in 2025 possible.

Today, we can honor the many heroes from 1945 onward. We can commend those active now in continuing Việt Nam's early leadership to secure sovereignty and peace for oppressed peoples. We can affirm that Vietnamese, with so many hard lessons learned, have wisdom to share with other nations and peoples in our troubled world.

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