Chinese Funeral Procession, old Saigon
[Vsg] A Chinese funeral procession. Old saigon 20th c.
vsg-list-archive
Jo <gok-8@spro.net>
Wed, Mar 9, 2016, 1:34 P
Apologies for being off-topic perhaps, but some list folks know that I research decorated conveyances.
The large conveyance in this procession looks to be a decorated flatbed truck, judging by the fat rubber tires and
the absence of windows along the see-through side.
May I ask about the décor on the top: could it be a simulation of a mausoleum, Chinese style? Or a simulated roof
of a clan temple?
I imagine close family passengers inside this conveyance, together with the encoffined corpse? Or what?
Are the two men in front of this huge conveyance, wearing hats, struggling to pull it?..…not too clear in the photo.
They seem to be preceded by a single, also hatted man, pulling a small shrine?
Can anyone interpret this photo for me or provide answers to my queries?
Thanks in advance,
Joanna Kirkpatrick
Independent
...
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Alec Soucy <Alec.Soucy@smu.ca>
Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 1:51 AM
to Jo, Vietnam
Dear Joanna,
I am not sure why funeral carriages are decorated this way. However, I can say that it must be motorized. The people wearing hats in front are musicians The one on the viewer's side immediately in front of it is playing cymbals. There are mourners on the carriage. You can see the typical white headband in the front-centre.
I hope someone else can remark on the carriage. I am curious! Perhaps Leopold Cadiere wrote something about it, though I think (as the caption reads) this is an ethnic Chinese funeral.
Cheers,
Alec Soucy
Saint Mary's University
Halifax, Canada
From: Vsg [vsg-bounces@mailman11.u.washington.edu] on behalf of Jo [gok-8@spro.net]
Sent: March 9, 2016 5:34 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group
Subject: [Vsg] A Chinese funeral procession. Old saigon 20th c.
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Esbjörn Wettermark <ewettermark@gmail.com>
Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 1:52 AM
to Jo, Vietnam
The shorter 'hatted' man, closest to the conveyance, seems to be playing two cymbals or gongs (holding them in front of him), rather than pulling. This would make sense if it is a funeral procession although I would have expected a few more drums and shawms (ken), but they may well be walking after the conveyance.
Esbjorn Wettermark
PhD candidate in Ethnomusicology at Royal Holloway, University of London
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Esbjörn Wettermark
PhD candidate in Ethnomusicology at Royal Holloway, University of London
0044-7586 555 404 (UK)
0084-122 7824 342 (VN)
Alec Soucy <Alec.Soucy@smu.ca>
Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 2:01 AM
to Vietnam
Dear Joanne and Esbjorn,
There wouldn't be any musicians following the carriage. The reason for the musicians is to lure the soul along from the house to the grave, so it doesn't wander off and become a dangerous ghost. In Taiwan I sometimes saw scantily clad dancing girls on moving platforms that were intended to do the same (along with the musicians).
Cheers,
Alec Soucy
Saint Mary's University
Halifax, Canada
From: Vsg [vsg-bounces@mailman11.u.washington.edu] on behalf of Esbjörn Wettermark [ewettermark@gmail.com]
Sent: March 10, 2016 5:52 AM
To: Jo
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group
Subject: Re: [Vsg] A Chinese funeral procession. Old saigon 20th c.
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Mike High <mike.high@earthlink.net>
Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 8:50 AM
to Alec, Vietnam
Joanna & Alec,
This is an interesting and relevant topic—I have seen modern versions of these decorated hearses all over the Delta. If memory serves, the ones out in Rạch Giá have a kind of Khmer design and color scheme. When on their way to a funeral, they move pretty quickly, with four attendants perched on the corners, looking a little bit like a fire truck in a hurry.
I once heard of a Chinese tradition (in the case of a deceased father) in which the son was expected to make several ritual attempts to stop the progress of the casket to the grave. Googling around, I can find no substantive reference to this, so perhaps it was an invented story.
As to the scantily clad dancing girls, I found this interesting story about strippers being hired for the purpose of drawing crowds to the funeral:
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/04/24/401896663/chinas-latest-target-funeral-strippers
:: Mike High
Khuê văn các
Independent Research Facility
Great Falls, VA
USA
PS:
Thia was an interesting three-wheeled variant that I saw in Long Hải, with some Khmer-style depictions of the Buddha and the kind of hell-scene found in the back of many Mahayana pagodas.
On Mar 10, 2016, at 5:01 AM, Alec Soucy <Alec.Soucy@smu.ca> wrote:
Dear Joanne and Esbjorn,
There wouldn't be any musicians following the carriage. The reason for the musicians is to lure the soul along from the house to the grave, so it doesn't wander off and become a dangerous ghost. In Taiwan I sometimes saw scantily clad dancing girls on moving platforms that were intended to do the same (along with the musicians).
Cheers,
Alec Soucy
Saint Mary's University
Halifax, Canada
From: Alec Soucy <Alec.Soucy@smu.ca>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] A Chinese funeral procession. Old saigon 20th c.
Date: March 10, 2016 at 4:51:56 AM EST
To: Jo <gok-8@spro.net>, Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear Joanna,
I am not sure why funeral carriages are decorated this way. However, I can say that it must be motorized. The people wearing hats in front are musicians The one on the viewer's side immediately in front of it is playing cymbals. There are mourners on the carriage. You can see the typical white headband in the front-centre.
I hope someone else can remark on the carriage. I am curious! Perhaps Leopold Cadiere wrote something about it, though I think (as the caption reads) this is an ethnic Chinese funeral.
<image001.jpg>
_______________________________________________
Vsg mailing list
Vsg@u.washington.edu
http://mailman11.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/vsg
--
Esbjörn Wettermark
PhD candidate in Ethnomusicology at Royal Holloway, University of London
0044-7586 555 404 (UK)
0084-122 7824 342 (VN)
Hue-Tam Tai <hhtai@fas.harvard.edu>
Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 9:35 AM
to Mike, Vietnam
I cannot really comment on funeral truck decorations, but I do believe that in the south, flat bed trucks are used. I have heard funeral music at the crack of dawn in my Saigon neighborhood, with the theme song from Exodus played on traditional instruments, along with more traditional music. Mercifully, the funeral procession went away rapidly.
Nguyen van Huy made a video of a funeral in northern Vietnam for the AMNH exhibition in 2003. The older son and chief mourner walks backward, facing the cortege with one hand stretched in front of him as if to stop the coffin from moving forward toward the burial site and thus keeping the deceased from leaving the family..
This was not on a flatbed truck as in the south,but on a traditional sedan chair (kieu). The women were walking underneath the sedan chair the whole time, as well as underneath the long banner that symbolized the path of the soul toward heaven. I've never seen it done at southern funerals. I have not seen such sedan chairs in southern temples,but they are ubiquitous in northern ones..
It could be that these differences are due to the fact that while traditional sedan chairs, which are lavishly decorated, are plentiful in the north, in the south, motorized vehicles of all sorts have long been readily available..
Southerners do not have professional.cryers, either. But this profession is also disappearing in the North. A documentary was made on this topic about ten years ago with funding from the Ford Foundation.
On a totally different topic, one of the photos from Hanoi 1896 shows a Chinese man with a splendidly long queue. The huge circular hats that many northern women wore have disappeared; many were still wearing skirts rather than the Chinese-style pyjama outfits of southern women.. ..
For those interested in Vietnamese clothing through the centuries, I highly recommend Tran Quang Duc, Ngan Nam Ao Mu (A Thousand Years of Clothes and Caps).
Hue-Tam Ho Tai
Harvard
On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 11:50 AM, Mike High <mike.high@earthlink.net> wrote:
Joanna & Alec,
This is an interesting and relevant topic—I have seen modern versions of these decorated hearses all over the Delta. If memory serves, the ones out in Rạch Giá have a kind of Khmer design and color scheme. When on their way to a funeral, they move pretty quickly, with four attendants perched on the corners, looking a little bit like a fire truck in a hurry.
I once heard of a Chinese tradition (in the case of a deceased father) in which the son was expected to make several ritual attempts to stop the progress of the casket to the grave. Googling around, I can find no substantive reference to this, so perhaps it was an invented story.
As to the scantily clad dancing girls, I found this interesting story about strippers being hired for the purpose of drawing crowds to the funeral:
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/04/24/401896663/chinas-latest-target-funeral-strippers
:: Mike High
Khuê văn các
Independent Research Facility
Great Falls, VA
USA
PS:
Thia was an interesting three-wheeled variant that I saw in Long Hải, with some Khmer-style depictions of the Buddha and the kind of hell-scene found in the back of many Mahayana pagodas.
On Mar 10, 2016, at 5:01 AM, Alec Soucy <Alec.Soucy@smu.ca> wrote:
Dear Joanne and Esbjorn,
There wouldn't be any musicians following the carriage. The reason for the musicians is to lure the soul along from the house to the grave, so it doesn't wander off and become a dangerous ghost. In Taiwan I sometimes saw scantily clad dancing girls on moving platforms that were intended to do the same (along with the musicians).
Cheers,
Alec Soucy
Saint Mary's University
Halifax, Canada
From: Alec Soucy <Alec.Soucy@smu.ca>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] A Chinese funeral procession. Old saigon 20th c.
Date: March 10, 2016 at 4:51:56 AM EST
To: Jo <gok-8@spro.net>, Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear Joanna,
I am not sure why funeral carriages are decorated this way. However, I can say that it must be motorized. The people wearing hats in front are musicians The one on the viewer's side immediately in front of it is playing cymbals. There are mourners on the carriage. You can see the typical white headband in the front-centre.
I hope someone else can remark on the carriage. I am curious! Perhaps Leopold Cadiere wrote something about it, though I think (as the caption reads) this is an ethnic Chinese funeral.
<image001.jpg>
Jo <gok-8@spro.net>
Thu, Mar 10, 2016, 4:42 PM
Mike, and all……………..
Thanks for all the varied info.
I wish we could see more photos of these processions in Vietnam.
If anyone on this list has a few, kindly share them on list.
As for strippers at funerals, the Taiwanese do it with colorful lights at night. Mark L. Moscowitz published a film doc titled Dancing for the Dead : Funeral Strippers in Taiwan, , 38 min. DVD. Columbia, SC: Daunting Hat Productions, 2011. I’m attaching my copy of the review from Visual Anthropology (when I was one of two film editors). Available from amazon for sale or rent. (I have not seen the amazon version. I say this as I sense that there were several versions.)
A summary can be found here: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1865338/plotsummary?ref_=tt_ov_pl
Warning: The film doc’s trailers on UTube are a mixed bag and they auto-segue into porn type “exotic” film (I refuse to label the ambiguous country of production signaled by “exotic”). The original film was excellent, showed no actual stripping (the director had to be careful, so to speak). He included interviews with various Taiwanese people, from different places in civil society, on their views about “flower cars”. Such dances were performed on temple deitys’ birthdays (?) as well as for funerals/weddings. The overall funeral motives were entertainment for the deceased, deities, and demons (apotropaic motives), and for the hundreds of folks attending the funeral. The more people the better for the honor of the deceased.
Regards,
Joanna Kirkpatrick
Independent