Embedded Files
Vern Weitzel <vern.weitzel@undp.org>
date Dec 18, 2006 4:39 PM
subject Re: [Vsg] Hanoi traffic - next door
Dear all,
I am terrbily sad to say that my next door neighbour, Bac Lan,
was struck by a car yesterday morning near our house and
she died at 4 am this morning. Apparently she did not cross
at a cross walk. She was in her 70s. She leaves behind three
adult sons.
Vern
"DHAUGHTON@bentley.edu" <DHAUGHTON@bentley.edu>
date Dec 18, 2006 11:03 PM
subject Re: [Vsg] Hanoi traffic - next door
Hello everyone! So terribly sad about Vern's neighbor, and other
casualties... I often heard people say in Hanoi that the bigger vehicles
were responsible for not hurting the smaller ones, all the way down to
pedestrians. So even if a pedestrian might have been erratic, it was the
responsibility of the bigger vehicle to not hit him/her. I suspect that
these conventions are breaking down with the advent of cars and denser
traffic, as well as impatience getting from point A to point B. All the
best, Dominique
Markus Taussig <markustaussig@mac.com>
date Dec 17, 2006 6:01 PM
subject [Vsg] Hanoi traffic
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2006/12/17/caught_in_the_swarm/
"Stephen J. Leisz" <steve_leisz@yahoo.com>
date Dec 17, 2006 6:58 PM
subject RE: [Vsg] Hanoi traffic
Markus,
Thanks for the link and article. Didn't hear anything about this over here (at least so far not, but I might not be watching the right news). I hope that Professor Papert recovers and will try to follow this.
Interesting about emergent behavior. I use Netlogo to do agent based modeling and in 2001 a colleague of mine from the East-West Center who also works with GIS and with cellular array modeling (though not agent baesd modelling) was here on his first trip to Hanoi. He was fascinated by the traffic and at that time suggested that it seemed like a good example of chaos theory and that one could use agent based modelling to model it. We never went any further with it than discussion, but I hope that Seymour Papert recovers and and can do so. I think it would be fascinating and might also be useful.
Stephen J. Leisz
LTA USEPAM / Research Fellow IGUC
"Stephen J. Leisz" <steve_leisz@yahoo.com>
date Dec 17, 2006 7:44 PM
subject RE: [Vsg] Hanoi traffic
Oops, just found out that I should have heard about it. It was on the news here recently and I guess I just missed it. Also Professor Nguyen Van Dao, ex-Director of National University (1994-2001) and then Chairman of the Science and Training Council at Hanoi National University was hit by traffic and killed on December 9th near my apartment here in Trung Hoa - Nhan Chinh.
Stephen J. Leisz
LTA USEPAM / Research Fellow IGUC
Le Dong Phuong <phuong@fpt.vn>
date Dec 18, 2006 4:43 AM
subject RE: [Vsg] Hanoi traffic
I think, and hopefully Mike Digregorio would agree with me, that Karl Kim, chair of Urban planning from University of Hawaii could do a test of his medelling of traffic here. He had been modelling traffic for years, but only under American conditions, not Asian ones. Hope that somebody at the UH could pass this message to Karl on my behalf.
David Marr <dgm405@coombs.anu.edu.au>
date Dec 18, 2006 3:05 PM
subject RE: [Vsg] Hanoi traffic
Having been part of many an amoeba-like encounter at Hanoi intersections, I can see how chaos theory might explain what is happening, but what contribution can it make to solving the traffic problem?
I was in Hanoi when the first traffic lights were installed, and promptly ignored. This was a shock for someone impressed by the discipline and mass mobilization of the revolutionary era. But all revolutions come to an end.
I invite VSGers to visit Da Nang, where the traffic lights are being generally observed. It helps that each light tells the waiting mass how many seconds remain to wait or to cross.
David Marr
Joe Hannah <jhannah@u.washington.edu>
date Dec 18, 2006 3:44 PM
subject RE: [Vsg] Hanoi traffic
Dear list,
Not being a numerically inclined person, nor one to build models, I take a
more "ethnographic" approach to describing the traffic. It has long been
my contention, after years of negotiating traffic in both Hanoi and HCMC
(and many places in between) that, contrary to many observations to the
contrary, there are very consistent and observable rules that govern
vehicle flow. These rules just are not a) the ones we foreigners have been
trained to expect, or b) the ones written in the official traffic laws.
They are more a set of customary laws, informal, but no less binding to
the participants.
That these "customary trafffic rules" are frequently flauted does not make
them any less important than, say, speed limits in America.
By the way, in my conversations with Vietnamese who have driven
extensively in both HCMC and Hanoi I frequently hear that HCMC traffic is
less "chaotic, that the drivers "follow the rules" more regularly, but
that they drive too fast. Hanoi traffic is said to be less rule-bound,
but also slower.
Cheers,
"DiGregorio, Michael" <M.DiGregorio@fordfound.org>
date Dec 18, 2006 3:54 PM
subject RE: [Vsg] Hanoi traffic
Dear Joe,
When you can understand why a woman carrying her child on a motorcycle
on their way to elementary school can dash through a red light, weaving
through oncoming traffic, then you will understand the rules of the
road. The problem is not that there are no rules, but rather, that the
rules don't work well in the dense traffic of contemporary Hanoi. And
it's not that 'customary rules are flaunted' either. What you see are
the rules, despite complaints from just about everyone. The state of
traffic is a state of constant monitoring and negotiation of interests.
Mike
Michele Thompson <thompsonc2@southernct.edu>
date Dec 18, 2006 3:45 PM
subject Re: [Vsg] Hanoi traffic
Dear Joe,
I agree that there are definit rules that the locals understand and that I certainly never did. Harriet Phinney and I once considered trying to write an article of some sort-not really an academic one- about Ha Noi traffic. We felt that the whole thing was a sort of a process of expected negotiations and signals and our title was going to be "Negotiating Time and Space in Ha Noi."
cheers
Michele
Margaret Barnhill Bodemer <bodemer@hawaii.edu>
date Dec 18, 2006 5:21 PM
subject RE: [Vsg] Hanoi traffic
Having recently joined the traffic flow on two wheels (for better or worse)
the motto "give no quarter" repeats in my head every time I am on the road.
This isn't to say that there aren't "negotiations" in the traffic flow as
others have mentioned. Rather, that, if one shows any sign of giving space,
someone from the crowd of vehicles behind will immediately move into that
space.
This behavior seems to me exactly like the sort of organic models discussed
in the article that Markus forwarded, with regard to the models proposed by
Prof. Papert. Learning these rules makes you realize there are rules.
Nguyen Qui Duc <DNguyen@kqed.org>
date Dec 18, 2006 6:00 PM
subject RE: [Vsg] Hanoi traffic
Hi all,
I agree with Michael regarding the negotiation process.
I have often quite liked the notion that traffic here is a citizens' negotiation among themselves, rather than a process in which the government greenlights you to go, or redlights you to stop. I have also noticed that wider, longer boulevards of Saigon allow for a better flow, and that people do drive/ride more like westerners, observing rules and behavior more like in the west. But the people ride faster than here in Hanoi where things seem more chaotic because streets are smaller, shorter, traffic dense.
Michele, definitely not an academic article, but my title has to do with "Rules".
http://www.thingsasian.com/stories-photos/1052
Nguyen Q Duc
"Adam @ UoM" <fforde@unimelb.edu.au>
date Dec 18, 2006 6:17 PM
subject RE: [Vsg] Hanoi traffic
Joe's comments seem to me to be scientifically rigorous.
Indeed, as a Londoner (a city where drivers 'hate ditherers') I found I had
to re-learn traffic rules in Cambridge, then again in Canberra and
Melbourne. Is this not normal? Though just why there are no round-abouts (I
believe called by the local 'turning-circles') in the US remains quite
mysterious.
It is said that the reason only male homosexuality was illegal in 19th
century England was that nobody dared explain to Queen Victoria what female
homosexuality was. Perhaps there is something about the US psyche and
round-abouts that produces similar tensions?
Phep cong an thua le duong pho? Thua roi!
Adam
David Marr <dgm405@coombs.anu.edu.au>
date Dec 18, 2006 6:39 PM
subject RE: [Vsg] Hanoi traffic
All these ethnographic meditations are fine, but meanwhile there are
people dying, as Vern shows poignantly, and large numbers of head
injury victims who exist like vegetables in Vietnam's hospitals. Not
to mention the many lesser injuries, bashed motorbikes, and cash
settlements to all and sundry. Or do the number-crunchers among us
believe that Vietnam's roads are less dangerous than Sydney, New
York, Hong Kong or Singapore?
"DiGregorio, Michael" <M.DiGregorio@fordfound.org>
date Dec 18, 2006 10:27 PM
subject RE: [Vsg] Hanoi traffic
Maggie,
I would say they are not so much rules as conventions. And second, I
would say that they work best went traffic consists of slower, more
transparent vehicles (you can see the intentions of drivers on bicycles
and motorcycles) and in general, less density. The conventions of
mutual negotiation barely work any more, but a rule based system has not
become accepted by a large enough part of the population. If it sounds
like Vietnam in general, don't be surprised. Traffic watchers, since
the days of the motorcycle racers, have linked what they see on the
streets of Hanoi with social conditions in general.
Mike
Grace Chew <gclchew@yahoo.co.uk>
date Dec 18, 2006 10:51 PM
subject RE: [Vsg] Hanoi traffic
Just wondering what is the outcome of this feasibility
study (follow link). Does anyone know?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTjCZc11u-c&mode=related&search=
But what I can say for the moment is that these trains
won't be able to negotiate the labyrinths of 'ngo' in
HN. It is exciting to follow this study.
Best wishes,
Grace
Ben Kerkvliet <ben.kerkvliet@anu.edu.au>
date Dec 19, 2006 2:57 AM
subject RE: [Vsg] Hanoi traffic
A general traffic rule that works reasonably well in Vietnam - and in the Philippines - is watch out for the guy in front of you, keep enough distance so as not to hit her/him. A corallary of that one is that generally speaking the person behind you is aware of that rule.
Ben
Jeffrey English <Jeffrey.English@rmit.edu.vn>
date Dec 19, 2006 4:40 AM
subject RE: [Vsg] Hanoi traffic
I’ve been driving in Vietnam for three years, every day. I have always thought that packs of motorbikes are exactly like schools of fish and the big flocks of autumn birds one sees in the cornfields of the Midwestern US. I believe the primary rule is that you must watch what is in front of you. If you rear-end someone, the rule is different from the US, in that the one who did the rear-ending is to blame. This also explains the fact that someone turning onto a main street never looks back while merging. The one merging is only responsible for what is in front of him.
Best of luck to all as you navigate the highways of Vietnam.
catharin dalpino <catharindalpino@earthlink.net>
date Dec 19, 2006 5:09 AM
subject RE: [Vsg] Hanoi traffic
Adam,
This might be getting a little far afield, but Washington, DC is an
exception to your generalization on circle-less American cities. DC is
replete with traffic circles, most of them ringing monuments or small parks
- no doubt because the city was designed by a homesick Parisian. DC
residents know the rules of roundabouts - the inner circle has the right of
way - but tourists and travelers not familiar with the system often drive
into the circle, panic, slam on the brakes and create pile-ups.
Best,
Catharin
"frank.proschan@yahoo.com" <frank.proschan@yahoo.com>
date Dec 19, 2006 7:00 AM
subject Re: [Vsg] Hanoi traffic
Washington has traffic circles and rowhouses; New England and Alaska have roundabouts and townhouses. See: http://www.alaskaroundabouts.com/mythfact1.html and http://www.alaskaroundabouts.com/history.html for the lowdown (including the tidbit that Columbus Circle in New York was the first traffic circle ever).
When L'Enfant designed the District of Columbia, he did not have traffic circles, but large open intersections with multiple streets meeting (like those that resulted in Hanoi when the city removed the islands in the center of larger intersections). Traffic circles came in the 20th century; most recently, several have been restored to their early 20th century grandeur and traffic-organizing mission.
I recall a fugitive document that was created by one or several of the earliest Euro-American residents (students? NGO workers?) living in Hanoi in the late 1980s or early 1990s that provided detailed instructions for how to cross a street on foot. Does anyone have that document, and if so could they scan and OCR it so it could enliven our discussion?
Best,
Frank Proschan
Nora Taylor <nthanoi04@yahoo.com>
date Dec 19, 2006 7:11 AM
subject Re: [Vsg] Hanoi traffic
Frank,
You might be thinking of Murray Hiebert's short piece in the Far Eastern Economic Review in the early 1990s when motorbikes were just beginning to blend into the mix of bicycles and cyclos. I don't know if you can still find it on the web but I recall it being funny and accurate!
How's Paris traffic?
Nora
harry aveling <haveling@hotmail.com>
date Dec 19, 2006 11:53 AM
subject [Vsg] Hanoi traffic
More rules:
You are responsible for what is in front of you. Not behind. There is no
such thing as lateral vision.
Get in front.
You can pass the vehicle in front of you if you can see its tail lights.
The big fish eat the little fish.
Don't stop.
Five lanes are better than three.
There may be other rules.
Grace Chew <gclchew@yahoo.co.uk>
date Dec 19, 2006 7:33 PM
subject [Vsg] Re: Hanoi traffic
Yes; drivers don't seem to look sideways. That was
what happened in my road accident in those days of few
motorbikes.
Maybe another 'rule' says: 'Go forward, never look
back, and don't never stop even if you've hit someone
because attracting the cong-ans often means bigger
pay-outs.' That was when my excursion cars became
useful twice when I took hit-and-run victims to Bach
Mai in the more recent years.
The case of the Japanese tourist in her sixties who
was dragged for some distance while crossing what she
thought was a 'zebra-crossing'(Oct 2002??) supports
why HN drivers have been labelled 'manaa ga
warui(bad-mannered)'. Then looking at the kids having
great fun playing soccer on Bai Dau Xe Dao Tan, the
summary of all ''rules' seem to be: "You have to avoid
all the misfortunes yourself - it's your
responsibility (tu tranh)."
Grace Chew
harry aveling <haveling@hotmail.com>
date Dec 19, 2006 8:03 PM
subject [Vsg] Rules: Hanoi traffic
Agreed. So some of the rules need to be rewritten:
You are not "responsible" for what is in front of you. You just have to look
out for it.
You are not responsible for what is behind you. But because the big fish eat
the little fish, it pays to be aware of what is there.
Harry Aveling
"DiGregorio, Michael" <M.DiGregorio@fordfound.org>
date Dec 19, 2006 10:08 PM
subject RE: [Vsg] Rules: Hanoi traffic
I want to say again that the search for rules is the wrong approach.
Hanoi traffic is not a rule based system, it is based on certain
conventions regarding the behavior of other with respect to individual
interest.
Mike
Oscar Salemink <OJHM.Salemink@fsw.vu.nl>
date Dec 21, 2006 3:33 AM
subject RE: [Vsg] Rules: Hanoi traffic
The angle of 'responsibility' is an interesting one. People in the west tend to assume that traffic has to do with following rules, and that accidents have to do with breaking rules. The responsibility lies in properly discerning cause and effect. But there are other ways of connecting cause and effect, for example by seeing what happens in this world as 'fate' or - more specifically - as having to do with proper rituals for the right kind of spirits. There are various ways in Vietnam of finding out what is a good time to travel, in ritually securing the blessing of otherworldly spirits, or in protecting oneself against risk - many professional drivers have talismans, for instance. As there is more than way to connect cause and effect, there must be many roads to traffic safety.
Perhaps our surprise over traffic in Vietnam says a lot about ourselves and the way we think about the world.
B Dwyer <anthrobfd@hotmail.com>
date Dec 21, 2006 9:24 AM
subject RE: [Vsg] Rules: Hanoi traffic
Im a bit surprised by this re Viet traffic - especially references to
supposed East/West types of thinking. I think a lot of Viet people would
welcome rules - both driving and procedural stuff - especially younger
riders who comprise the bulk of riders now. There are a lot more bikes on
the road than even five years ago, so many people are in the dark about what
to do and many drivers dont know the rules, dont understand them or think
they are not important. Also the traffic system in general is in need of
fixing. And in a place like Sai Gon you have so many vested and conflicting
interests it is a very difficult and time consuming endeavour. Anyway there
are rules and they get followed by and large. Ive driven a motor bike in Sai
Gon and in London and really there is little difference. I was in an
accident where I clipped another driver's fender and I paid him 50,ooo dong
so he could get it straightened - easily sorted. Other friends pay out if
they have money. Im not sure what happens in serious accidents where someone
is badly injured or killed - but really you should pay the family concerned
compensation if you have the money - thats only fair I think. You dont have
to do that in Australia because we have insurance that does it for us.
As regards fate, well some people do the fate thing and others dont. I am
not sure all Viet people would subscribe to use of talismans or some other
ritualised mode of behaviour to protect them while they ride - also riding
is fast becoming so normal - like walking, only quicker and faster. I know
some professional drivers use talismans and ritual (a pretty common practice
throughout the world) but the guy or girl on his way to work or out to see
friends ect doesnt - not to my knowledge anyway.
I think when driving in SG you have to watch where you are going and not
focus too much on what is behind or beside you or you will have an accident.
At the end of the day you cant really help it if some bangs into you but you
can stop yourself from banging into someone
regards
Brett
"DiGregorio, Michael" <M.DiGregorio@fordfound.org>
date Dec 21, 2006 6:58 PM
subject RE: [Vsg] Rules: Hanoi traffic
For my part, I would agree with you that many people would favor a rule
based system. And this, I think, is the importance of viewing this
period of road carnage as emblematic of broader societal change. The
reality is that it is now a system where some people are following
formal traffic rules, others are following customary behavioral
conventions, and both are constrained by the increasing numbers and
types of vehicles on the roads.
I would not regard this as an east-west debate. Rather, just another
point where the customary norms of behavior are intersecting with
formalizing rules more consistent with urban life and a society embedded
in formal institutions that govern largely anonymous encounters and
exchanges between individuals and groups of individuals.
In addition, I would say that we have not entirely moved beyond the
campaign mentality of the past, a mentality in which harsh measures were
applied periodically, and then forgotten.
On the roads today, as Hanoi sent out extra police to manage traffic, as
they also did during APEC, people have somehow managed to remember that
staying on the right side of the lane divider and stopping at red lights
is consistent with traffic safety, even if they have some pressing need
to get where they are going ahead of others. As we saw after APEC, when
the police are gone, the system reverts to its mixture of formal and
customary rules.
Finally, I would say that the agent based modeling that interest the
late professor Papert could probably tell us a lot about effects,
especially where the choke points would be and how to create roads that
reduced them. But this modeling would not be an explanatory model in
the sense I am describing. It would be a traffic model in which people
are agents within a traffic system, not a social model in which the
behaviors observed take place within a traffic system. Both are
important - one for safety and the other as a means of better
understanding the emergence of society out of customary practice in
Vietnam. Something, many of us have been concerned with for decades.
Mike
Nhu Miller <trantnhu@gmail.com>
date Dec 22, 2006 2:45 AM
subject Re: [Vsg] Rules: Hanoi traffic
Professor Paper isn't dead yet. He's in a coma at Mass General in Boston.
- Show quoted text -
date Dec 22, 2006 4:25 PM
subject Re: [Vsg] Rules: Hanoi traffic
Hello Chi Tuong Nhu and other friends in VSG:
I have in the attachment a small contribution of ideas on
this Hanoi traffic issue.
Tai Van Ta
"DiGregorio, Michael" <M.DiGregorio@fordfound.org>
date Dec 22, 2006 5:29 PM
subject RE: [Vsg] Rules: Hanoi traffic
My apologies for announcing the premature demise of Prof. Papert. I
misread the announcement of his repatriation.
Mike
"DiGregorio, Michael" <M.DiGregorio@fordfound.org>
date Dec 22, 2006 5:49 PM
subject [Vsg] Hanoi traffic
Dear all,
Merry Christmas for the wild streets of Hanoi.
Here's a shot I took from the back of a xe om last week.
Mike
Grace Chew <gclchew@yahoo.co.uk>
date Dec 22, 2006 7:00 PM
subject [Vsg] Rules: Hanoi traffic
Dear Mike and all:
Thank you for the picture. I think sometimes we should
be allowed to post some pictures- only with the
approval of the administrator - because pictures speak
more than words.
I do not rate some of these replies as being more
factual than others. For topics like this, I
participate in this forum as someone who have
experienced road accidents in Hanoi and interpreted my
experiences as well as those of my friends (both
foreigners and Vietnamese) according to my opinions. I
think I have the right to put forward my experience
and views as they are because this forum is set up for
discussions - just as anyone has the right to say that
my view and those of others are 'sarcastic'. Anyway, I
used inverted commas when I typed the word, 'rule'. I
hesitated to use the word as it is. If others think
there are really unwritten rules, so be it because
they have unconsciously written their own rules while
riding on Hanoian streets.
After many years, I am still wondering why the driver
whose bike I was riding on went off without assisting
me, although I was limping and bleeding- that was
1997. I also wondered why I was told by someone at
school that at least I was not dead and that I still
had my limbs without any 'get-well' wishes. It dawned
upon me then that the empathy and sympathy that I was
expecting would be very different -and perhaps put
across in different situations (not like the situation
I encountered) - among a very tough people who has
experienced wars for many years.
I could go on, but it's really time for last-minute
Christmas shopping. I wish everyone of you online a
very happy and successful 2007 - and may we all
continue to actively participate like this as we have
done before.
Best wishes,
Grace
Vietnam Global Network <vgn@pacific.net.sg> hide details 12/22/06
reply-to Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
to Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
date Dec 22, 2006 8:27 PM
subject RE: [Vsg] Rules: Hanoi traffic
Dear Grace and all,
You are right: pictures speak more than words.
You may want to log on to
http://www.vietnamnet.vn/xahoi/doisong/2006/12/646917/
for some pictures about accidents in Vietnam.
Wishing you a Merry/Peaceful Christmas and Happy/Peaceful New Year.
Yours sincerely,
Le Huu Huy
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