"kho" and "dinh" in the Mekong Delta 1789-1800

From dbiggs@u.washington.edu Wed Oct 15 18:06:30 2003

Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 21:16:34 -0800 (PST)

From: D. Biggs <dbiggs@u.washington.edu>

Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu

To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>

Subject: "kho" and "dinh" in the Mekong Delta 1789-1800

Dear List,

I have a questions about places and name in the delta during the period of Nguyen Anh's return residence at Gia Dinh after 1788. Gia Dinh Thanh Thong Chi [Book III, p. 79a] states that in 1788 he sent twelve of his closest mandarins out to organize the rice-growing and land-clearing policies to rebuild rice stocks and in turn build up the army. He mentions "dinh" at 4 of the 5 "tran".

Does anyone have a detailed definition for what a "dinh" was exactly? Was it in or near the citadel (thanh)? I can locate 3 of the 4: Dinh Tuong/My Tho, Vinh Thanh/Vinh Long, and Bien Hoa; but I can't locate the Phien An "dinh" with any precision. One suggestion is that it is what Son Nam calls Don Dien (Moc Hoa today) on the Vam Co Tay River. Nguyen Dinh Dau's Che Do Cong Dien Cong Tho (Hanoi: 1992) has one little map of the "dinh" and "dao" (p. 84), but the location of Phien An is unclear. Any suggestions?

Finally, does anyone know the situation of rice granaries before Nguyen Anh ordered them (re?) constructed in 1789? I have an idea that the creation of "kho" in the Mekong Delta represents a very important environmental and cultural shift towards nationalization of rice trade and production in the late 18th century, but I haven't looked at such "kho" in the north or central regions. Perhaps government construction and maintenance of "kho" is a traditional Vietnamese practice? I suspect that prior to this in the Mekong Delta, independent Chinese developed kho next to their milling enterprises. My guess would be that since the Le dynasty up nroth, there was pretty organized government involvement in rice--around the time of the introduction of cadastral surveys...

Thanks for any source suggestions or comments.

David Biggs

UW-Seattle

From sinh.vinh@ualberta.ca Wed Oct 15 18:06:35 2003

Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 00:13:34 -0700

From: Sinh Vinh <sinh.vinh@ualberta.ca>

Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu

To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>

Subject: Re: "kho" and "dinh" in the Mekong Delta 1789-1800

Dear David,

In modern Vietnamese, as you know, "dinh" means either "an official residence/edifice" (e.g. dinh Pho' Thu? tu+o+'ng, etc., not commonly used after 1975) or "a shrine/a site for (psychic) medium" (dinh co^, dinh ca^.u, etc.).

During the period of time you are referring to, however, "dinh" also means "barracks/military post/military headquarters". Another pronunciation of "dinh" is "doanh", thus the term "Doanh tra.i" (barracks) as in "Doanh tra.i Qua^n ddo^.i Nha^n da^n" (Barracks of the People's Army) has the same origin with "dinh".

With respect to the location of Phie^n An (or Phan Ye^n), you might find the following sources useful:

- _DDa.i Nam nha^'t tho^'ng chi'_ (Nxb Thua^.n Hoa', 1992), vol. 5, p. 209.

This passage gives you some information on the previous names of Phie^n An, but for a detailed description on the location of Phie^n An, based on French sources (which are cited meticulously) and personal interviews by the author, see the following:

- Vu+o+ng Ho^`ng Se^?n, _Saigon na(m xu+a_ (Nxb Khai Tri', n.d.), pp. 54-82, especially pp. 57-74. _Saigon na(m xu+a_ is included in the recently published _Tuye^?n ta^.p Vu+o+ng Ho^`ng Se^?n_ (Selected Works of V.H.S.)(Ha` No^.i: Nxb Va(n Ho.c, 2002).

VSi'nh

From dbiggs@u.washington.edu Wed Oct 15 18:06:42 2003

Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 12:50:57 -0800 (PST)

From: D. Biggs <dbiggs@u.washington.edu>

Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu

To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>

Subject: Re: "kho" and "dinh" in the Mekong Delta 1789-1800

Dear Vinh Sinh,

Thanks for the references. My confusion between Phien An and Gia Dinh stems partly from the various names given at different times to the Gia Dinh region and citadel (the 1790-1835 citadel is under the site of Duc Ba Cathedral today). The citadel was renamed Phien An by Minh Mang in 1832 one year before fighting broke out between Le Van Khoi and the Nguyen. There is a just-published book out on Le Van Khoi's seizure of the "Phien An" citadel in 1833.

<<Le van Khoi Va Su Bien Thanh Phien An (1833 - 1835)>>

The 1790 citadel called "Quy Thanh" was built following plans suggested by Olivier de Puymanel (Ong Ti'n in Vietnamese) and out of the honeycombed basaltic rock, "da ong" mined in Bien Hoa. (Vuong Hong Sen, Sai Gon Nam Xua, p. 61). The citadel was built with walls 4.8 meters high, and roughly extended from a center near Duc Ba Cathedral today. Of the eight gates, the eastern gate Dong Mon was named Phien An gate. Gate names were changed several times so that under Minh Mang, the southern Ly Minh gate was changed to the name Phien An. In 1832, Minh Mang changed the name of the citadel complex to Phan Yen/Phien An Thanh. Vuong Hong Sen also mentions that "dinh" or "doanh trai"/barracks were built outside of three gates including Phien An gate (the southern one at the time).

Minh Mang later reconstructed the citadel in 1836 with four doors at a site centered to the northeast of the old one--I believe closer to the Da Kao area of Q1 in Ho Chi Minh City today.

I think I am fairly certain that the 1789 "Dinh Phien An" was located in the vicinity of the old citadel, in Q1 of Ho Chi Minh City today. There is no reference to the forts ("dao") constructed along the Vam Co Tay river in relation to Phien An. It is interesting though that there were four of these along the course of Vam Co Tay from Cambodia downstream to Tan An area today.

Thanks for the clarification and the Vuong Hong Sen reference...I'm looking forward to the new publication when it arrives!

David

From dbiggs@u.washington.edu Wed Oct 15 18:06:47 2003

Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 13:33:07 -0800 (PST)

From: D. Biggs <dbiggs@u.washington.edu>

Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu

To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>

Subject: Re: "kho" and "dinh" in the Mekong Delta 1789-1800

Correction--there is only one old 1789 "dao" on Vam Co Tay river and one or possibly two on Vam Co Dong River. (I misread the reference in Nguyen Dinh Dau's book.)

D

From Nora.Taylor@asu.edu Wed Oct 15 18:06:51 2003

Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 09:56:15 -0700

From: Nora Taylor <Nora.Taylor@asu.edu>

Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu

To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>

Subject: RE: "kho" and "dinh" in the Mekong Delta 1789-1800

Dinh in the north means village communal house, shrine for village ancestral spirits, if that is helpful, although I couldn't possibly match Vinh's encyclopedic knowledge.

Regards,

Nora

From sinh.vinh@ualberta.ca Wed Oct 15 18:06:55 2003

Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 10:37:14 -0700

From: Sinh Vinh <sinh.vinh@ualberta.ca>

Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu

To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>

Subject: Re: "kho" and "dinh" in the Mekong Delta 1789-1800

I have tried by best, Nora. I think the "dinh" you're referring to is "ddi`nh", whereas David's "dinh" has no diacritical marks.

Best,

Sinh

From u9508817@anu.edu.au Wed Oct 15 18:07:00 2003

Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 10:15:42 +1100

From: Jacob Ramsay <u9508817@anu.edu.au>

Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu

To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>

Subject: Re: "kho" and "dinh" in the Mekong Delta 1789-1800

Philippe Langlet and Quach Thanh Tam's _Atlas Historique des six provinces du sud du Vietnam_ is an excellent source for locating Phien An (Tan Binh), as well as the other former dinh (Phien An, Bien Hoa, Dinh Tuong, Vinh Thanh and Ha Tien).

For the citadel, Malleret's 1935 study of fortifications (_BSEIS_ )has an overlay of the two constructions on 1930s streets, plus some interesting aerial photographs of the region. In fact he has a couple of photographs (from the 1930s) of a two metre section of the old citadel found in the grounds of the Hospital, neighbouring I think Ly Tu Trong (??) -- is this section of rubble still there?

J Ramsay

From phpey@hotmail.com Wed Oct 15 18:07:04 2003

Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 11:48:10 +0000

From: Philippe Peycam <phpey@hotmail.com>

Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu

To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>

Subject: Re: "kho" and "dinh" in the Mekong Delta 1789-1800

Archaeology in Saigon

I agree with J. Ramsey on the value of Malleret's works on the archaeology of royal Saigon. In the former Grall Hospital compound, there are still blocks of latterite which may have been excavated by the French when they built the hospital. But I don't think the citadel pieces are still there... Also at the angle between Hai Ba Trung St. and Nam Ky Khoi Nghia, inside the Presidential palace' garden, you can still see a small 'mount' which, according to Malleret, would be part of the second citadel's walls... I don't remember exactly, but someone should have a look and check if there are some peices of bricks or ceramics there.

I also remember spending some times with the archaeologist Le Trung Kha within the compound of the French consulate when they were doing renovation. There are pieces of well backed bricks everywhere, and they correspond to the Queen's pavillon in the old citadel (also according to maps by Malleret).

I also remember seeing a lot of old Vietnamese bricks when the rather terrifying 'Landmark' shopping center was built on Cong Xa Paris behind the cathedral.

... And not to mention the ancient Khmer grid identified by plane on the horserace cource at Phu My....

Philippe Peycam

(Spent 4 years in Saigon doing my PhD thesis between 94 and 98).