Query regarding tradition of portraiture in VN
From: George Dutton <dutton@humnet.ucla.edu>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 2:51 PM
I'm wondering if anyone has any information about Vietnamese traditions of portraiture, particularly from the pre-19th century period? In talking with a graduate student yesterday we came upon this topic, and while I know that China has a rich tradition of paintings of all sorts of people, I'm hard pressed to find any earlier Vietnamese portraits. The few that I can think of were all drawn in China to my knowledge - one of Phan Huy Ich from the 1790s for instance. I've seen an earlier one of Nguyen Trai but don't know if it is contemporary, or what its origins are. When I think of the pre-20th century fine arts, I think of carved religious figures, temple architecture, ceramics, woodblock prints, but nothing regarding representations of people, except perhaps some battle depictions. Is it simply that they have not survived, or that the tradition didn't really exist?
I'd welcome any information people have about this, or suggestions for sources, or other images that people have seen of pre-19th century individuals.
Thanks,
George Dutton
UCLA
--------
From: hhtai@fas.harvard.edu <hhtai@fas.harvard.edu>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 5:28 PM
I have had the same questions myself. I believe that the portrait of Nguyen Trai
is from the 17th century and so cannot be used as a faitful rendition of his
features. In writing, there is a tradition of stereotypes ("dragon mien") that
is not a very useful guide, either. On Chinese tradition, Evelyn Rawski wrote a
book on Ancestor Portraits that came out several years ago, and if I remember
correctly, an exhibition was mounted in conjunction.
Hue-Tam Ho Tai
--------
From: Frank <frank.proschan@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 3:20 AM
It depends of course on what you count within "Vietnamese" tradition--there is the extensive portraiture tradition of Daoist ritual paintings, some of which were produced by artists resident in Ha Noi (Hang Trong). Recent books include Tranh tho cac dan toc thieu so phia bac Viet Nam / Ceremonial paintings of northern ethnic minorities in Vietnam, 2006--more valuable for its beautiful large reproductions than for its textual details, according to some experts. It will set you back a handy $125 or so, online. And not to forget Catholic portraiture traditions of saints and holy figures. (Again, if one includes Catholics within the garden of Vietnamese traditions.)
Best regards,
Frank Proschan
Paris
FRANCE
--------
From: hhtai@fas.harvard.edu <hhtai@fas.harvard.edu>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 3:54 AM
It also depends on what is meant by portraits and portraiture. Does it mean a
reasonable likeness of a person? I am not sure that with this criterion, the
Daoist paintings would qualify. The "portrait" of Nguyen Trai, thought to date
from the 17th century, would not either. I would call these representations
rather than portraits.
Thoughts?
Hue-Tam Ho Tai
--------
From: George Dutton <dutton@humnet.ucla.edu>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 9:18 AM
Thanks Hue-Tam and Frank,
I appreciate both of your ideas on this topic. I was thinking of reasonable likenesses of people when I posted my message, though I realize that most such representations would probably be quite stylized. My sense is that there really isn't very much along those lines for the earlier period as I suspected. I realize that there is a larger tradition of religious imagery, whether Catholic or Daoist, and I would certainly place this within a broad view of Vietnamese traditions. I confess that my curiosity was partly sparked by a pragmatic interest in whether one could find Vietnamese images of people to illustrate books on earlier Vietnamese history, since I had to use European drawings for my Tay Son book. Anyone have any idea when the first "true to life" depictions of Vietnamese began to appear, and who was depicted? We have, of course, photographs of early nationalists including Phan Boi Chau and Phan Chu Trinh, though I'm sure there must be earlier images of historical figures from the second half of the nineteenth century - perhaps of French provenance?
George
--------
From: hhtai@fas.harvard.edu <hhtai@fas.harvard.edu>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 9:35 AM
George:
As you surely know, there is a portrait of Tu Duc. I am not sure whether the
portrait of Minh Mang that is available from French sources (I can't remember
whether it's from Chaigneau or someone else) is a reasonable likeness or highly
stylized. For post-Tu Duc emperors, we have French photographs. There does not
seem to have been anyone fulfilling the function that the Italian painter
Castiglione performed in painting Qianlong in many many settings.
Hue-Tam
--------
From: George Dutton <dutton@humnet.ucla.edu>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 10:08 AM
Hue-Tam and Joanna,
Thanks for your posts. While the first of Joanna's images is very familiar, the identity of the figure escapes me at the moment. The bottom image is Tu Duc. Privately held ancestral portraits would be an important genre of portraiture, though when these date from is an interesting question. After my post I belatedly thought of the portraits of Tu Duc (as in Joanna's post) and then the one of Minh Mang. Incidentally, it occurred to me that the Google Image search function would be a useful way to pursue this - and it yielded an image of Gia Long that I'd seen before, but about whose provenance I don't know anything. That technique also yielded images of, for example, Phan Thanh Gian. That said, I suspect that the Gia Long and MM portraits were done by Europeans (also the Tu Duc one?) and so fall outside of what might be considered a Vietnamese tradition of portraiture, leaving open the question of early images created by Vietnamese artists.
George
--------
From: Nora Taylor <nthanoi04@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 11:23 AM
Although the Chinese did have a rich portrait
tradition, it can also be questioned as to the
accuracy or "realism" of such portraits. The
Vietnamese did have a portrait making tradition mostly
to honor ancestors, one that continues this day if you
consider the black and white drawings of deceased that
are made to adorn coffins and altars.
In general, however, Vietnamese pre-19th century
paintings are rare. This is due to a combination of
the factors you mention: few remaining examples, fewer
artists working in that tradition, differences in
value of "works of art." It is generally not helpful
to compare with China because the context was
different. You need to look perhaps at Thailand or
Cambodia where photography and western painting
techniques gave rulers an opportunity to commission
portraits in a way that was not possible before.
Nora
--------
From: Tai VanTa <taivanta@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 11:53 AM
Hello, George Dutton and other friends in VSG:
If you go to this site: nguyentl.free.fr/html
you will see presentation, both in French and Vietnamese,of
old photo of high official Phan Thanh Gian (1796-1867), the
sketch of Vietnamese embassy mission members to China in
1078, and a whole lot of photographs and sketches of
portraits of old Vietnam (19th century and earlier).
Tai Van Ta
--------
From: jkirk <jkirk@spro.net>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 3:55 PM
Hi George,
Here are a few other shots I took in the house where the ancestral portrait
I sent you was hung--maybe someone on the list will recognize it---they also
sold silver jewelry--I suspect it's in guidebooks because our tour folk took
us there. Sorry to say I didn't write down the family name--the older woman
in the photo is the matriarch, don't know if her husband is alive or not.
This is an old house --they also showed us the entry to their US war
underground hiding place to get away from the bombs. It was under a big
square paving stone in the courtyard. (In HaNoi)
Joanna