Embedded Files
From: ? ??
Date: Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 5:05 AM
To: Vsg@u.washington.edu
Dear all
I have a question on the terms for funerary portraiture in Vietnamese. What do you call portrait paintings as well as photos used in funeral and put on ancestor altar in Vietnamese? Chân dung (??) might be one of them, I guess. I am also looking for a linkage of the terms with Chinese characters, as Chân dung comes from ??.
Thanks
Jeehey
----------
From: Vu Hong Phong
Date: Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 5:43 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Hello Jeehey,
I will call it '?nh th?', 'di ?nh', because 'chân dung' is a general term which can be used for everybody.
?nh th? = a picture of the dead, used for worshipping
Di ?nh = a picture of the dead, can be used for worshipping or for keeping a memory
I guess 'di ?nh' has connections with Chinese meanings, but I am not sure. 'Di', pronounced like 'g' in English, means 'things that remains' in both Vietnamese and Chinese.
Best wishes,
Phong
http://mailman1.u.washington.edu/mailman/listinfo/vsg
----------
From: ? ?? <jeehey@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 2:27 AM
To: Vu Hong Phong <phongvhp@yahoo.com>, Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Thanks, Phong
It seems that ?nh is from ? (nhi?p ?nh is from ??), and Di is from ?. Interestingly, Di ?nh as ?? shares the same Chinese characters to the Japanese term for a picture of the dead, then. Th? meaning 'to worship' might derive from Chinese? Would it might be helpful to explore Ch? Nôm? If so, what should I look up?
Thanks
Jeehey
----------
From: ? ?? <jeehey@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 2:49 AM
To: Vu Hong Phong <phongvhp@yahoo.com>, Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
I just found di from this website :)
http://staging.nomfoundation.org/taberd/?p=radical&stroke=7&unicode=8FB5&strokes=12&view=7222
By the way, is there any art historian or anyone studying Vietnamese painting in VSG?
Thanks
Jeehey
----------
From: Thompson, C. M. <thompsonc2@southernct.edu>
Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 2:57 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear VSG Folk,
This is a very interesting discussion!
Just a reminder that it is strongly suggested in the interest of courtesy that all posters to the VSG list serve sign their postings to the list with their full name and an institutional affiliation if they have one.
cheers
Michele
Michele Thompson
Professor of Southeast Asian History
Dept. of History
Southern Connecticut State Univ.
----------
From: Vu Hong Phong
Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 3:49 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear Jeehey,
Yes I think 'th?' could have a Chinese root. You may know that two third of Vietnamese words are similar to what are pronounced in (ancient?) Chinese. As far as I know, Ch? Nôm has a short life in Vietnam and, in my opinion, its invention/use/re-invention should be seen as a symbolic resistance to Chinese domination.
You may want to contact this blogger - Nguy?n Xuân Di?n, or his Institute: http://www.hannom.org.vn/ - people there study Ch? Nôm.
Regards,
Phong Vu
PhD Candidate
Department of Sociology
University of Essex, UK
----------
From: ? ?? <jeehey@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 7:15 PM
To: Vu Hong Phong <phongvhp@yahoo.com>, Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Thanks, Phong
I looked up Ch? Nôm preservation foundation (http://www.nomfoundation.org/). I found very interesting material from Nh?t d?ng thu?ng dàm. I am exploring terminologies for photography (as well as funerary photo-portraiture), which is related to the formation of modern lexicon in Vietnam as well as East Asia. In Nh?t d?ng thu?ng dàm, there is a "photography room" in the section 'Dwelling House" (http://www.nomfoundation.org/common/show.php?detail=885). Considering the dictionary was published in T? Ð?c 4th year, it is possible for Vietnamese to experience photography. But I wonder how "photography room" was in "dwelling house". Since it is my first time to encounter this dictionary, does anyone have an idea on this material?
Concerning di ?nh, I guess that the term originally referred to portrait painting used in rituals. Is there a good resource on portrait painting in Vietnam?
Many thanks
Jeehey Kim
PhD Candidate
The Graduate Center ,City University of New York
----------
From: Nhung Walsh
Date: Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 7:46 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear Jeehey,
Your research topic is very interesting. I am studying Vietnamese art history so I wonder if you could share with me your study, I would love to discuss more with you with private email exchange.
As far as I know, "di ?nh" is the correct term for picture of the dead, and "?nh th?" can be used for both picture of the dead, or religious pictures, but it can be more specific, eg., "?nh th? d?c Ph?t" (Buddha's picture); "?nh th? d?c Ki-tô", etc.
For ch? Nôm, I use this: http://www.nomna.org/cong-cu-nom/tra-cuu-chu-nom/tra-cuu-chu-nom and the word "Di" can be from this one?
Best,
Nhung
Nhung Walsh
Graduate Student
Master of Arts Administration and Policy
The School of the Art Institute of Chicago
37 S. Wabash, 712 Sharp Building,
Chicago, IL 60603
----------
From: Ngô Thanh Nhàn
Date: Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 9:09 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear Nhung,
A.
First, "di ?nh" is a new Hán-Vi?t compound, with "?nh" a modern term
for photograph, and "di" is not ? but ?.
This word ? "di" in Hán-Vi?t has a different meaning than the modern
Chinese "lose; articles lost, omit". It means "luu l?i, n?i gi? v? sau" in
Vietnamese (T? di?n ch? Nôm, Vi?n Nghiên c?u Hán Nôm, ed. Nguy?n
Quang H?ng, 2006).
? "?nh" used to mean "shadow; image; reflection" and now "photograph".
In Tam thiên t?, it is matched with ? or ?? "bóng". Truy?n Ki?u and
H? Xuân Huong only use ? ("shadow, image", originally, means
bong bóng l?n).
B.
Unfortunately, the phrase "nhi phòng: là phòng nhi?p" in Nh?t d?ng
thu?ng dàm ref. by Jeehey -- I wonder if at the time of the book, the
word ? "nhi?p" or ?, already meant "photography"? -- or it still
had the meaning "nhi?p chính" (to assume political/administrative
responsibility), or closer to "photography" (but not yet) as "nhi?p h?n"
(take over, absorb, your soul). The word "nhi?p ?nh" (photography)
was newly coined and used in both Vietnam and China (most likely
southern China).
It could also be that the side room (nhi) "ear; handle" is an
administrative room? It's up to the date of the book.
Cheers,
Nhàn
----------
From: Liam Kelley <liam@hawaii.edu>
Date: Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 9:30 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Jeehey,
A nhi phòng ?? was a small room on the side of a bigger room or chamber.
([side room] ??????????????http://www.zdic.net/cd/ci/6/ZdicE8Zdic80ZdicB363136.htm)
The Nôm here should be something like “là phòng x?p.” I could be wrong with the exact word that ? indicates in Nôm here, but it definitely has nothing to do with photography.
Portraits of the deceased have a very long history in East Asia. Di ?nh/yiying ??was one term that was used, but di tu?ng/yixiang ?? was more common.
A quick google search brings up this book on The Material Culture of Death in Medieval Japan with a chapter on “Portraits of the Deceased.” http://www.museumoflove.eu/Death%20by%20Karen%20M.%20Gerhart.pdf
That looks like a good place to start trying to understand where di ?nh/di tu?ng came from.
Liam Kelley
University of Hawaii
----------
From: ? ?? <jeehey@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 12:11 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Thanks everyone for the information.
di ?nh/di tu?ng must be ??(C:??) and ?? (C: ??), derived from the practice of portrait paintings for a ritual use in the region. I found that chi?u tu?ng refers to photograph in the 19th-century dictionary, which is ?? in Chinese.
I assumed that Vietnamese might have been exposed to photography via China, considering that they made a regular visit to Canton and Beijing as well as the presence of Chinese in Hanoi in the 19th century. In case of Korea, China and Japan, I found some records on photography in several travelogues to China, Europe and the U.S..
I hope I could find any remark on photography from the materials including ??????????.
Thanks
Jeehey Kim
PhD candidate
The Graduate Center, CUNY
----------
From: Ngô Thanh Nhàn
Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 3:02 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear Liem,
Thanks, I like ? "phòng x?p".
Fr. Ki?m has x?p in s?p x?p, bánh x?p, thu?c x?p, x?p bút...
? can also be read depending on contexts:
-- nép in "khép nép, n?m nép xu?ng, nép bút",
-- n?p in "n? n?p, n?p nhà",
-- nhép and nh?p in "lép nhép, nhép nh?p", "nh?p",
-- tri?p in "tri?p ph?c" (n? s?).
cf. Fr. Tr?n Van Ki?m, 2004.
-- Nhàn
----------
From: Tai, Hue-Tam
Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 7:29 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Evelyn Rawski has a whole book on ancestor portraiture: Worshipping the Ancestors: Chinese Commemorative Portraits (Stanford, 2001). She asked me about Vietnamese ancestor portraits and I had to say they were much less common than in China as painting in general was less widespread. The well known Nguyen Trai portrait was painted a couple of centuries after his death. The equestrian portrait of "Nguyen Hue" was painted by a European painter during the mission to celebrate Qianlong's birthday in 1790.
In HCMC pagodas, I have seen both name tablets and photographs. On family altars, I have seen painted portraits and photographs.
Hue Tam Ho Tai
----------
From: Hiep Duc
Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 4:23 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Jeehey,
Photography was brought to Vietnam sometimes in 1870s. The first Vietnamese who had a portrait photograph in 1863 was Phan Thanh Gian (as well as photos of his entourage) when he led the delegation to France to negotiate the return of the 3 provinces in Cochinchina. These earlier photographs were based on ambrotype technique (collodion on glass).
Émile Gysell brought photography to Saigon and set up a commercial studio there, called “Gsell Photographie”. Some years earlier he accompanied Doudart de Lagrée in an expedition up the Mekong to find its source and the way to southern China in 1866 to 1868. In this expedition, he was the first person to photograph the ruins of Angkor. In 1873, he returned to Angkor with Louis Delaporte and made many photographs there. Later he followed Francis Garnier in the storming of Hanoi citadel. He made the first portrait photograph of a Tonkin woman. This photo is still an exquisite photo valued by many to this d?y Besides doing some official photograph projects for the French government (like civil building projects in Saigon by Governor Le Myre de Vilers), “Gsell photographie” studio also made a lot of photographs on the ordinary life of people in Saigon as well as portrait photo of some rich Vietnamese who came to his studio for their portrait
Soon after another photographer, called Pun Lun (Tân Luân) who had a photo studio in 56 Queens Street, Hong Kong in 1860s, came to Saigon and set up a studio on Boulevard Charner (Nguy?n Hu?), opposite another studio belonging to a French photographer called Aurielle Pestel (at 10 Boulevard Charner). Like Gsell before, Pun Lun made some outstanding photos of scenes and life of ordinary people (mostly Chinese in Saigon-Cholon) on CDV (Carte De Visite) form. These CDVs were used for sale at less cost compared to ambrotype glass plate photographs.
By the late 19th century, there were a lot of commercial studios in Saigon owned by French, Vietnamese photographers. They made a lot of postcards (CDV) for sale printed from their photographs.
For details, see Nguy?n Ð?c Hi?p, Vài nét v? các nhà nhi?p ?nh t? cu?i th? k? 19 d?n d?u th? k? 20 ? Vi?t Nam, T?p chí Nghiên c?u và Phát tri?n, s? 1, 2 (91), 2012.
Cheers
Hiep
----------
From: Liam Kelley <liam@hawaii.edu>
Date: Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 6:04 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
The National Library of France (bless its soul) has those 1863 photographs online. They're absolutely fantastic:
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b23001495/f49.planchecontact.r=Siam.langEN
Liam Kelley
University of Hawaii
----------
From: ? ?? <jeehey@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 12:13 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Thanks everyone
Nina Hien's article is also helpful for the use of photography in ritual context.
I also found that Phan Thanh Gian might be the first Vietnamese to have his picture taken. I wonder that he might have left any record on his experience of visiting a photo studio in Paris or whether his photograph was used in his funeral, then.
But, I think that Vietnamese might have experienced the new technology much earlier, especially those visiting Canton and Macao around 1830s. They might have witnessed a new emerging market of portrait paintings for foreigners (mostly enlarging a daguerreotype into a painted version) as well. Dictionnaire Annamite-Français of 1898 contains chi?u tu?ng (??), the Chinese term for photography as I mentioned earlier.
In term of portrait painting, there was a practice of exchanging small portraits between envoys in the late 18th and 19th century, which was called ??. The term also referred to photograph in China later. I assumed that Vietnamese envoys might have experienced this practiced besides exchanging poems during their stay in Beijing or Canton.
Another evidence for portrait painting practice could be found in those of Buddhist monks. From some 19th-century French documents on Vietnamese religion, it seems possible that some renowned monks had his portraits painted in Vietnam.
I also tried to find whether there was a commemorative practice using a portrait for figures like Nguy?n Trung Tr?c.
I found that some photos by Pan Lun, but didn't know that he set the studio in Saigon.
Jeehey Kim
PhD Candidate
The Graduate Center, CUNY
----------
From: ? ?? <jeehey@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 1:12 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Hiep,
I wonder what the Chinese characters on the signboard of the studio Khánh Ký; ?? ??. Is it possible to find more on Vietnamese photography from books like the following?
?nh Vi?t Nam th? k? XX = Vietnamese photography in the 20th century = La photographie du Vietnam au 20e siecle
by Ph?c Le; Chi Thanh Chu; H?i ngh? si nhi?p ?nh Vi?t Nam.
:Ha N?i : Nha xu?t b?n Van hoa thong tin, 2002.
(It says 'out of print' in your web page, though)
L?ch s? nhie^p ?nh Vi?t Nam (so tha? ) by H?i Ngh? Si Nhi?p An? h Vi?t Nam (Ha N?i: NXB Van Hoa-Thong Tin, 1993
Thanks
Jeehey Kim
PhD Candiate
The Graduate Center, CUNY
----------
From: Hiep Duc <Hiep.Duc@environment.nsw.gov.au>
Date: Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 4:54 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Jeehey,
Phan Thanh Gian and his entourage did not come to the studio, rather the “studio” came to Phan Thanh Gian delegation.
The report by Pham Phu Thu, second in rank in delegation mission, described the visit of the photographers to their residence and how the photographs were taken. France at that time were curious about the foreign mission from Cochinchina and as photography was very popular at that time with ambrotype replacing daguerretype in the ease of usage, the mission was their subject of study. Pham Phu Thu wrote that the French used to exchange and give gifts of photographs to each others as a sign of friendship. I guess the sight of the people from Vietnam in full regala passing in the Hall of Mirror in Versailles to see the French emperor was irresistible for the French not to take an interest in the people of the mission.
I can not comment on the practice of exchange portrait paintings between Vietnamese and Chinese and earlier exposure to daguerreotype photograph as I do not know about the subject.
Cheers
Hiep
----------
From: Hiep Duc <Hiep.Duc@environment.nsw.gov.au>
Date: Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 5:15 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Hi Jeehey,
Khanh Ky is a Vietnamese equivalence of Pun Lun of China (Hongkong). He was a major figure and can be called the father of photography in Vietnam. He set up many studios in Hanoi, Saigon, Nam Dinh.. His sudio in Saigon (boulevard Bonnard) employed many people (including some French). He trained many people for a photographical careers. And when he was in France, his studio in Paris also employed Phan Chu Trinh when PCT was under financial problem (later Nguyen Ai Quoc also found work at Khanh Ky studio). At PCT funeral in Saigon, Khanh Ky photographed the whole event and made a photoalbum, a rare set indeed.
All references are useful like those books you mentioned but it also depend on what you look for.
Cheers
Hiep
----------
From: Tai, Hue-Tam <hhtai@fas.harvard.edu>
Date: Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 5:40 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Jeehey
I am not an expert on the beginnings of photography, either in Vietnam or China.
John Wong just completed a dissertation on Howqua, the Canton tea merchant who died in the early 1840s. Howqua had himself painted several times and sent his portraits to associates in England and the US (there is a nice portrait of him in the Peabody Essex Museum in Salem, MA). I do not know of any photograph of him. You could ask John who is currently teaching at Hong Kong University (johndwong@gmail.com) But it would seem photography was not well established in Canton or Hong Kong until after the mid 19th century
You may also wish to contact dr. Tran Duc Anh Son (anhsontd@gmail.com) He recently presented a paper on a couple of secret missions to Hong Kong in the 1860s. His paper did not touch on photography, however.
Hue Tam Ho Tai
----------
From: ? ?? <jeehey@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 4:12 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Thanks Hue-Tam
Concerning the portrait painting of Howqua, there was a competitive market for portrait painting, patrons of which were mostly foreign visitors or wealthy Hong merchants. Painters like Lamqua and Tingqua are among them. But seems difficult to find whether Hong merchants had their portraits (whether painting or photograph) used for their funeral and ancestral rites, though I assumed so. Thanks for giving me a contact information to John Wong. I will definitely ask him more. And also to Dr. Tran Duc Anh Son for the mid-19th century travels by Vietnamese to Hong Kong. Hong Kong already had numerous photo studios around 1860s.
Jeehey Kim
PhD Candidate
The Graduate Center, CUNY
----------
From: ? ?? <jeehey@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 10:26 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear list
As Hiep told me that Ph?m Phú Th?'s record on the experience with photography during his visit to France, 1863, I found the Han Nom institute has the original text of Ph?m Phú Th?'s diary:
1214. GIÁ VIÊN BI?T L?C ???? [TÂY HÀNH NH?T KÍ ???? ]
Giá Viên Ph?m Phú Th? ????? so?n th?o. Ph?m Phú Lâm ???, Truong Tr?ng H?u ??? biên t?p.
3 b?n in (3Q), 1 bài t?u.
VHv. 1170: 292tr., 24x16.
VHv. 286/1-2: 188tr., 28x16.
VHv. 2232: 104tr., 27x16 (thi?u Q3).
And I also found what he described on photography from the French translation of the diary from Bulletin des Amis du Vieux Hu?. (1863, Sept 19th, 20th, and November 1st). I would love to see the original text written in Chinese characters, but it seems that I have to visit the Han Nom Institute in Hanoi. Could anyone give me an advice on getting the material from the institute?
Thank you
Jeehey Kim
PhD Candidate
The Graduate Center, CUNY
Page updated
Report abuse