"Vietnam should chart own path to create world-class schools. History proves it can."
From: Vsg [mailto:vsg-bounces@mailman11.u.washington.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Ashwill
Sent: Sunday, April 2, 2017 11:56 PM
To: Vsg@u.washington.edu
Subject: [Vsg] "Vietnam should chart own path to create world-class schools. History proves it can."
A university that is controlled by Americans or by Vietnamese who are subservient to Americans must not be allowed to dominate the academic world in Vietnam. For Vietnam’s integrity and national security, it needs to have its own universities that are not controlled by any foreign power.
Your thoughts?
MAA
Hanoi
From: Anthony Morreale <amorreale22@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] "Vietnam should chart own path to create world-class schools. History proves it can."
Date: April 3, 2017 at 6:50:17 AM PDT
To: Mark Ashwill <markashwill@hotmail.com>
Cc: "Vsg@u.washington.edu" <Vsg@u.washington.edu>
Thanks all for the brief discussion on the last thread, and to Mark for introducing this follow up piece.
Surely the US system has some issues, but I'm not really sure I follow the reasoning that the fulbright school is a threat to Vietnamese "integrity and national security".
I also think that salaries are a big issue, and I think I would side with the author against austerity and neoliberalism in the university, but I'm not so sure that this critique can be transposed to Vietnam so easily.
I thought that much of the hope (maybe misplaced) for the fulbright school was that it will teach topics, in the humanities especially, that are critical of the nationalist and one sided narratives found throughout the educational system. Though the author made a backhanded reference to "so-called critical thinking", I think people have valid concerns about the deleterious effects of state control on disciplines like history, archeology, anthropology and so on. Trần Ngọc Thêm's scholarship comes to mind, a man with considerable power at DHXHNV in Saigon. I believe that I share many people's concerns that decisions at the university would be made by party members behind close doors and then introduced to the government functionaries to be rubber stamped. This isn't an endorsement of FUV, rather an attempt to try and explicitly address the stakes in "autonomy". Portraying it as a reincarnation of structural adjustment seems disingenuous.
Though I am by no means an expert on Vietnamese higher ed, I've have been keeping an eye on the Phan Châu Trinh school and institute in Hội An as part of a larger research project. It's worth pointing out that Hoàng Tuỵ, who is leveraged as an example of Vietnamese academic excellence, met with Võ Nguyên Giáp in the early 2000's to try and address the dire state of Vietnamese Universities. They in turn called Nguyên Ngọc, a man that has been pushing for intellectual freedom since the late 70s, leading to the founding of the Phan Châu Trinh school. The story can be found here. The school has faced numerous obstacles, but has sought to become just such an "apex institution" without having a "foreign power dominate Vietnam's academic world", as the author puts it. That being said, former communist guerilla Nguyên Ngọc was one of the most outspoken supporters of FUV, even replying to Ton Nu Thi Ninh's essay disputing the appointment of Bob Kerrey by saying that "maybe we should ask ourselves why we hid behind women and children?". We may disagree with Nguyên Ngọc about many things, but I think his credentials as a patriot and fighter for Vietnam are beyond question.
He is also a member of an organization called the Independent Vietnamese Literature Group, whose website has posted a number of articles analyzing and criticising the educational system from kindergarten on. Here is a list (if you are in the country, the website is blocked, which is ironic).
I think that a major weakness of the two articles in question was that, despite the author's rebuttal, they were told from a narrow STEM field perspective. Many people's concerns regard the structure of the system (exams being a major issue and a constant topic of the new year variety show gala), and the state of the humanities and social sciences. Bùi Văn Nam Sơn put it well in one essay arguing for a broader notion of "education":
Mọi sự phát triển đều chứa đựng ít hay nhiều những nghịch lý cần phải nhận diện và suy ngẫm. Nếu giáo dục đúng nghĩa là mối quan hệ phản tỉnh với chính mình, với người khác và với thế giới chung quanh, thì ắt nó không chỉ đơn thuần là sở đắc những kỹ năng lỏng lẻo và phân tán. Ta cũng sẽ gặp những nghịch lý trong hai đặc điểm, hay đúng hơn, hai hệ quả còn lại của giáo dục trong xã hội tri thức: học tập suốt đời và tự học, cùng với việc kiểm tra và đánh giá tri thức.
-Anthony Morreale
UC Berkeley
From: "Pierre Asselin, Ph.D" <passelin@hpu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] "Vietnam should chart own path to create world-class schools. History proves it can."
Date: April 3, 2017 at 8:14:32 AM PDT
To: Mark Ashwill <markashwill@hotmail.com>, "Vsg@u.washington.edu" <Vsg@u.washington.edu>
A university that is “controlled by Americans or by Vietnamese who are subservient to Americans”! This stinks of “American War”-era propaganda spewed by the regime in Hanoi, with “imperialists” and “puppets” and “lackeys” and “reactionaries” and “pirates” being blamed for all the nation’s ills.
And let’s be clear about one thing: for all their flaws, Americans “do” higher education as well as, if not better than, anyone on the planet. And Vietnam, of all countries, could learn much from the American way of doing that education, particularly in such areas as social sciences and humanities, which remain closely regulated or otherwise influenced by the state, to the detriment of young Vietnamese scholars and increasing numbers of their professors.
Aloha,
Pierre
Pierre Asselin
Professor of History
Hawai'i Pacific University
1188 Fort St., Suite MP 409
Honolulu, HI 96813
On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 12:22 PM, Thi Bay Miradoli <thibay.miradoli@gmail.com> wrote:
"Americans 'do' higher education as well as, if not better than, anyone on the planet".... I don't see how this presumption, which many Americans share, has ever served anyone, especially in a cultural context that values humility. I can think of many educational systems that have the same educational value minus the huge profit-making and elitist dimension of the American one, but this is besides the point. Attitude matters, I would never want to be taught by someone with such a premise, especially given the two countries' history. I think sharing knowledge and/or institutional framework should not be confused with imposing implicit (or explicit) cultural superiority. After all, albeit together with outstanding individuals, let us not forget that Donald Trump is also a product of the "better higher education" system "on the planet".
Regards
Thi Bay Miradoli, unaffiliated
From: Shawn McHale <mchale@gwu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] "Vietnam should chart own path to create world-class schools. History proves it can."
Date: April 3, 2017 at 12:44:28 PM PDT
To: Thi Bay Miradoli <thibay.miradoli@gmail.com>
Cc: "Vsg@u.washington.edu" <Vsg@u.washington.edu>
Reply-To: mchale@gwu.edu
Thi Bay Miradoli,
While I generally share your view, I will simply note that Pierre Asselin is Canadian -- Quebecois, I believe -- not American.
Shawn McHale
From: William Noseworthy <wnosewor@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] "Vietnam should chart own path to create world-class schools. History proves it can."
Date: April 3, 2017 at 2:22:53 PM PDT
To: Mark Ashwill <markashwill@hotmail.com>
Cc: "Vsg@u.washington.edu" <Vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear All,
An interesting discussion, though I think it is worth noting that the field of "History," in particular, in Vietnam, has a quite restricted view as a discipline. Hence, we are more likely to find historians with a negative view of "Vietnamese academia."
For example, when I explained I wanted to work on "Cham History," in Vietnam, I was initially sent to the Anthropologists and Literary Scholars. It may not have been intended, but the subtle implication was: "History" is only a product of the Vietnamese, of course, speaking of "superiority complexes." Trần Ngọc Thêm's text (critiqued in the halls by students as having "ideas as old as Vietnam") is indicative of a larger trend. The trend can be found throughout history textbooks.
I can assure you that this view was shared among students of a number of ethnic minority groups (Cham, Jarai, Roglai, Ede, Khmer, etc.), who complained that "their history" was never taught in Vietnamese classrooms (similarly, students complained about this in Cambodia as well). The field of history in Vietnam just isn't as complex as it is in the US, yes, in part because of funding, but also, in part because the US academic system benefits from the development of Ethnic Studies programs, Gender & Women's Studies, and other program studies that only emerged in the 1970s and 1980s, quite literally as a result of student protests.
In Vietnam, Anthropologists themselves complained of the only recent emergence of their field as a "true form of study," as opposed to "Ethnology" - and looked favorably toward French, Japanese and American systems for that reason. In Literary Studies, people seemed curious about the prospects of "digital humanities," which is basically a product of American academia, with international collaborations on certain projects.
One feature that I found is a common complaint of students in both Vietnam and the US is: methods of testing are out of date. They are too concerned with "memorization of fact" rather than, say, demonstrating the development of critical analysis. There was a running joke among students I worked with that if they were allowed to use their phones in class, they could answer any teacher's question with "Google biết." Students in Vietnam complained about this even more than US students do. So, while I may know
π
r
2
off of the top of my head, thanks to 8th grade geometry class. For many of today's students, that is a "Google biết" question. At a point instructors have to learn from the students as well, to also adapt to suit the needs of the students.
All that said, I should note that I found my experience with Southeast Asian (not just Vietnamese, but also Thai, Singaporean, Malaysian, and Cambodian) academics to be quite intellectually beneficial over the years, and there is clearly a lot that American academics can learn from regional programs (Vietnamese included). I would have to say that I found certain processes (publication, research symposium organization, holding of special lectures, conferences, etc.) to be very efficient, and well thought out in Vietnam, though I am aware this is not at all an experience shared by all, and, again, is field and expertise specific.
It seems that there should be an idea that institutional development occurs multilaterally (not just bilaterally), just as learning does in the classroom. Luckily it seems that's the perspective that most people who have commented on this subject share. Hopefully that will extend to FUV's faculty as well.
Very best to all,
Billy
On Mon, Apr 3, 2017 at 5:23 PM, Thi Bay Miradoli <thibay.miradoli@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you Shawn for pointing that out.
I'd like to clarify that I was not referring to Pierre Asselin's nationality, nor implying that it matters. I did not intend to personally attack him. I'm really sorry if I gave that impression. I just took some exception with the statement which is indeed shared by many Americans. I'm a product of the US higher education system, which I entered as a non-American and which I value as further attested by the great personal sacrifice I made in its pursuit (and the lifelong debt which remains). I just don't think that my personal choice should translate into a universal statement as to the value of the US educational system not only vis-a-vis Vietnam, but as it was stated "the entire planet". Whether we are a product of, or we work for, the US higher education system, we can increase it's value with some self-criticism as well.
Also I'm not trying to attack any one's views as much as I'm trying to understand the perspective of someone resisting American models or knowledge transfers precisely because of the reluctance to subscribe to the idea that everything American is automatically "as good as or even the best on the planet" or the (cultural) obsession with having to be the best in the world at everything as opposed to just being one's own best.
I edit doctoral dissertations of students at universities in various countries, one in particular looked at platforms for multi-cultural and multi-disciplinary knowledge transfers in Vietnam. Some of the students/researchers involved were Americans but studied in universities in Europe or Asia and vice-versa. The American experts or non-Americans who studied at US universities did not necessarily outrank their colleagues. It was a very organic process where everyone had something to contribute and I could never imagine similar projects run by graduates of American universities alone being nearly as successful. Yet the American graduates often felt they were transferring knowledge to everyone else while everyone else was more invested in the sharing process with both transferring and acquiring knowledge. I just wish, for instance, US institutions reiterated more how much we can learn from the rest and how much not impressed with us the rest of the world often is.
Bottom line, there is so much that is not measurable and that matters more or less according to the cultural context and historical baggage. And yes while American universities produced Donald Trump, Cuban universities with less than 1/10 the resources of their American counterparts train doctors from all over the world, produced a lung cancer vaccine and made incredible strides in HIV/AIDS prevention. Just saying...
Thi Bay
From: Hue-Tam Tai <hhtai@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] "Vietnam should chart own path to create world-class schools. History proves it can."
Date: April 3, 2017 at 3:04:44 PM PDT
To: Thi Bay Miradoli <thibay.miradoli@gmail.com>
Cc: "Vsg@u.washington.edu" <Vsg@u.washington.edu>
The focus on Fulbright University may be misplaced. As of November 2016, 30,000 Vietnamese students were enrolled in US universities , making Vietnam the 6th ranked country for sending its students to the US.
http://e.vnexpress.net/news/business/data-speaks/welcome-to-the-us-vietnamese-students-3513338.html
While the overwhelming majority will not go into academia, those who will, most likely will be influenced by their experience in American institutions of higher learning and will seek to replicate some aspects of it. But it should be noted that already various foreign universities and colleges already have campuses in Vietnam.
Our perspectives on higher education is informed by our own disciplines and the colleagues with whom we interact. The STEM fields are the least affected by some of the constraints under which the social sciences and humanities operate.
I appreciated Billy Noseworthy's post very much, as it tallies with what I have heard over the years. Besides the issues he mentions, there are others that my Vietnamese colleagues in the social sciences and humanities have mentioned as constraints.
One is the overwhelming focus on statistical data over analysis. For instance, if a question is: "Discuss battle, xyz", the expected answer focuses on the number of dead on either side, not a discussion of what the battle was about, the decision-making that preceded it, or its consequences. Some years ago, in a thread about how the American War was taught in Vietnam, a link to a youtube clip was provided. It showed a teacher asking about the bombing campaign. The student's answer confirmed the focus on statistics.
Another issue that several colleagues have mentioned, especially since the state launched a campaign to produce 20,000 Ph.D.s by 2020: the limit on the length of Ph.D. dissertations and the requirement that all chapters be the same length. I was told that the maximum number of pages used to be 200; it was lowered to 180 and more recently to 150.
The dissertation must be divided into five chapters of equal length: introduction, literature review, two chapters on the actual research findings,conclusion.
The obsession with credentialing has led to the rampant ghost writing of M.A. theses. One academic is said to earn several times her salary by ghost writing theses (I was told by someone who had been approached to ghost-write). However, I have not heard of ghost written Ph.D. dissertations.
Hue-Tam Ho Tai
Harvard
On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 1:18 AM, Richard Christopher Owens <rowens@uga.edu> wrote:
This has been a great discussion. I enjoyed the comments. Thank you for taking the time to express your thoughts. I am amazed to learn how many students are learning abroad now. It says a lot.
-Rich
Richard Owens
From: Hoang Vu <hmv23@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] "Vietnam should chart own path to create world-class schools. History proves it can."
Date: April 4, 2017 at 8:24:51 AM PDT
To: Richard Christopher Owens <rowens@uga.edu>
Cc: "Vsg@u.washington.edu" <Vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear all,
I, too, find the Professor Koblitz's article fascinating but flawed. I am in the process of writing a response article. This discussion has been most enlightening and, naturally, I would love to incorporate some of the arguments into my article, if this is at all possible. As a very junior member of the listserv, I am aware that I may not fully understand the written and unwritten rules about citing ideas discussed internally, and would love for a more senior member to explain them to me. I neither want to violate the forum's internal confidentiality (if any is expected), nor to plagiarize others' arguments.
Warmest regards,
Hoang Minh Vu
PhD Candidate in History, Cornell University
From: Mark Ashwill <markashwill@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] "Vietnam should chart own path to create world-class schools. History proves it can."
Date: April 17, 2017 at 10:39:34 PM PDT
To: Thi Bay Miradoli <thibay.miradoli@gmail.com>, "mchale@gwu.edu" <mchale@gwu.edu>
Cc: "Vsg@u.washington.edu" <Vsg@u.washington.edu>
Nationality or country of origin is not important - the worldview and values that underpin it are. There are many non-US Americans who are US nationalists because they buy into the myth of US cultural superiority. (I call them honorary US nationalists. This includes some young Vietnamese studying in the US, by the way.) Here's a relevant quote I used to introduce an article I wrote last year about US nationalism:
“Patriotism is proud of a country’s virtues and eager to correct its deficiencies; it also acknowledges the legitimate patriotism of other countries, with their own specific virtues. The pride of nationalism, however, trumpets its country’s virtues and denies its deficiencies, while it is contemptuous toward the virtues of other countries. It wants to be, and proclaims itself to be, ‘the greatest’, but greatness is not required of a country; only goodness is.”– Sydney J Harris, US journalist.
http://www.universityworldnews.com/article.php?story=20160317005217625
It's safe to assume that at least a simple majority of US Americans, probably more, are nationalists, including some on this listerv. Nationalism has nothing to do with level of education or even international experience; it has everything to do with one's worldview, as mentioned.
MAA
Hanoi