Bụt vs. Phật
Matt Steinglass <mattsteinglass@gmail.com>
date Apr 5, 2007 9:08 PM
subject [Vsg] Re: innovation in East Asian religion
With regard to the RFP Philip Taylor posted on innovation in East Asian religion, I had some interesting conversations in Hue this week around the issue of Thich Nhat Hanh’s return to Vietnam and whether Hanh’s Westernized version of Zen was “suitable” (“hop ly”) for Vietnamese Buddhists. Some people were put off by the idea of meditating wherever one happens to be at the moment. Others were just put off because Hanh uses the term “But” rather than “Phat” for “Buddha”. Anyone have any perspective on the meaning of that?
Also, I have posted at http://mattsteinglass.wordpress.com/2007/04/05/i-cannot-explain-the-following-clip/ a brief video clip from a ceremony which a Hue family graciously allowed me to record a bit of. Does anyone have any idea what this is? They couldn’t really explain anything about it, or didn’t want to.
Best
Matt
Oscar Salemink <OJHM.Salemink@fsw.vu.nl>
date Apr 6, 2007 12:39 AM
subject RE: [Vsg] Re: innovation in East Asian religion
That video clip shows a spirit medium session going on. A lot has been written about that recently, for example in 'Possessed by the spirits: mediumship in contemporary Vietnamese communities', edited by Karen Fjelstad and Nguyen Thi Hien (Cornell SEAP, 2006). For Hue I think Nguyen Huu Thong's Tín ngưỡng thờ mẫu ở miền Trung Việt Nam (NXB Thua^.n Hoa', 2001) is one of the best guides.
Oscar Salemink
Dinh Lu Giang <lugiangdinh@gmail.com>
date Apr 6, 2007 9:15 AM
subject Re: [Vsg] Re: innovation in East Asian religion
Dear Matt Steignlass,
I hope that I can give some insights for the questions you have put in the list.
1. In my opinion, Bụt and Phật are the same concept, but they are used in different contexts. First of all, phonetically, Bụt and Phật are from the same root. I think that Bụt comes from Phật. But is more used in legends, stories for kids or moral lessons. For most of Vietnamese people, the word But evokes an image of an old man with white hairs and beards, who disappears and appears suddenly to help poor and unhappy people. If you can read Vietnamese, this link may be interesting to you, as all "Phật" are replaced with Bụt, such as Bụt Thích Ca Mâu Ni .
2. The ceremony in the video clip is a kind of "chầu văn" or "lên đồng". It is an shamanist ceremony. You should contact Karen Elaine Fjelstad (San Jose State University) who has studied on "lên đồng".
Regards
Dinh Lu Giang
Mike High <mike.high@earthlink.net>
date Apr 6, 2007 12:04 PM
subject Re: [Vsg] Re: innovation in East Asian religion
“Possessed by the Spirits” is excellent; Philip Taylor’s “Goddess on the Rise,” also discusses these ceremonies, as does the 1999 issue of Vietnamese Studies that is devoted to the Cult of the Holy Mothers (you may still be able to get a copy of the latter over at the Thế Giới bookstore on Trần Hưng Đạo).
During my travels in January 2006, I made some informal video recordings of several len dong ceremonies, two of them in small temples in Cao Bằng and Lạng Sơn, and a much larger event at the noted shrine of Bac Le, near Lang Son.
Chung Nguyen <Chung.Nguyen@umb.edu>
date Apr 6, 2007 5:35 PM
subject RE: [Vsg] Re: innovation in East Asian religion
Matt:
TNH's use of the term "Bụt" instead of "Phật" has generated some controversy both in Vietnam and in the diaspora, but I think it's mostly inconsequential. It's a tempest in a teapot. "Bu.t" is the Vietnamese vernacular for "Buddha." It predates "Phật" (full term - "Phật Đà) which is borrowed from Chinese. This goes back to the ancient history of Vietnamese Buddhism, which came to VN directly from India. It's only later that Chinese Buddhism came to be the dominant influence in Vietnam, which gradually displaced the much older term "Bụt," because of the exclusive reliance on all the sutras translated in China. As it will become clearer below, that's precisely the reason why TNH wants to restore the term Bụt.
Some people strongly oppose this, believing that TNH freely replaces Phật with Bụt, which is not the case. He only uses Bụt when it appears appropriate, or contextually justifiable; other wise Phật is still the choice. The linguistic rule re: the making of compound words (Chinese-derived word in combination with other Chinese-derived word) still applies. For example, it's Phat giao, never "Bụt giao."
I'd have some issues with the word "westernized" (version of Zen) you use. Except for the influence of Christian liturgical music, which incidentally is inventive and beautiful with its Buddhist content, the rest of what TNH does with Buddhism is "modernized" , not "westernized." One of the most important features of TNH's school of Interbeing is the return to the authentic source of Buddhism with its paramount emphasis on practice, practice, and practice. The most important text for the Zen training in Vietnam and China is the manual "Ty Ni Nhat Dung Thiet Yeu" (Essential Daily Rule Book) which teaches novices how to keep mindful in everything they do, from the moment they awake to the moment they go to sleep. There are little poems to go with some of the daily activities, which TNH updates to become the manual "Bước Tới Thảnh Thơi" (English title - "Stepping into Freedom") where you would find new poems when a practitioner "answers the phone, starts the car, puts on the seatbelt, turns on the computer." Or his earlier, very popular book - "The Miracle of Mindfulness." There is nothing "western" in these: it only brings Buddhism up to the contemporary age.
Actually the opposition to TNH from some quarters has a deeper, and more historical root. TNH discusses the status of Vietnamese Buddhism vis-a-vis the intellectuals in Chapter 8 of "Đạo Phật đi vào cuộc đờii" (http://www.quangduc.com/xahoi/03cuocdoi8.html). During the Ly Tran dynasties, VN produced one of its best and most prolific generations of monks and nuns. Being the most educated scholars of the country, they assisted the King, created a highly humanistic culture, spread the spirit of Buddhism into all classes of society, but they never accepted any salary or compensation from the Court. They always returned to their temples, and maintained the strict disciplines of those who devoted their life to the task of seeking enlightenment. The massive 3-volume "TThơ Văn Lý Trần" (Poetry and Prose of the Ly Tran dynasties) is our record of that period.
When the Court began to organize the education system, most intellectuals flock to school in order to pass the exam and get a high position with the Court. Education had gone downhill every since. Few devoted their life to study something that will not bring about ranks and rewards. Most of the intellectuals understood less and less of Buddhism, while no longer asked for advice by the Court, monks returned to the village. Without an intellectual class and an aristocracy supporting them, they had to serve the needs of the common folks, which were not Zen training but all sorts of ritualistic ceremonies - prayers for the sick, the dead, etc.
TNH is probably one of the best descendants of the Buddhist revival starting in 1930s. Most of those who oppose his innovations either have a very ritualistic understanding of Buddhism coming out of that mass-supported Buddhism above, or too attached to its century-old habits, and fail to appreciate the dire need to respond to the challenges of the modern age. All innovations will meet with resistance.
Zen master Thich Thanh Tu looks at the issues from another angle. In his short but moving speech at the Opening of the Long Dong Temple built at the foot of Yen Tu mountain (a 2-VCD of this ceremony is on sale) he said that VNese Buddhism suffered a major setback during the Nguyen dynasty. King Gia Long wanted to emulate the Thanh (Chin) Court in China, and imported wholesale its Buddhist practice, which emphasized the Pureland school and the performance of all sorts of rituals for the masses. The Zen training took the back seat. It's fortunate that TNH came from this tradition.
TNN, as well as Thich Thanh Tu, both endeavor to rekindle the spirit of King Trần Nhân Tông's Truc Lam School (Bamboo grove), which is a Vietnamese-invented form of Buddhism, emphasizing the vigorous training of Zen - practice, practice, and practice, and de-emphasizing its ritualistic aspects. Running against two centuries of this dominant form, it's a wonder that both of them have not met with even more resistance.
Nguyen Ba Chung
will pore <willpore@gmail.com>
date Apr 6, 2007 6:01 PM
subject Re: [Vsg] Re: innovation in East Asian religion
Re But vs. Phat
Is there a Vietnamese linguist on the list who can comment on Bụt vs.
Phật? Or, are you, Mr. Nguyen, a linguist? I am not a linguist myself,
but it seems more than circumstantial that 'But' appears to be
cognitively linked to the Japanese and Korean for Buddha:
'Futsu/Butsu/Bu' and 'Bul/Bu' respectively, not to mention Chinese
'Fo.' Could it be the other way around...i.e. that 'Phật' is from
farther east or more 'native' Vietnamese than "Bụt"?
Diem Ngoc Nguyen <ndnguyen@unc.edu>
date Apr 6, 2007 6:28 PM
subject RE: [Vsg] Re: innovation in East Asian religion
I am not specialized in this issue. However, I think we should keep in
mind this point. "Bụt" always goes with an image of an old man with
white and long hair and beard which is quite different from the image
of "Phật". I think "Bụt" relates to Vietnamese traditional spiritual
belief rather than Buddhist belief.
In Chinese and Vietnamese Buddhism, there are both male and female
Buddhists, such as "Đức Phật Thích Ca" and "Phật Bà Quan Âm".
Differently, in Vietnamese traditional belief, "Bụt" is only male. For
female, people call "Bà Tiên" (Ms. Fairy). However, people also call
"Ông Tiên" (Mr. Fairy) in some cases in lieu of "Bụt".
I hope this would help.
Yim
Chung Nguyen <Chung.Nguyen@umb.edu>
date Apr 6, 2007 6:34 PM
subject RE: [Vsg] Re: innovation in East Asian religion
Yes, any linguist, or non-linguist for that matter, is welcome to comment on this. I am not a linguist, but the explanation comes from Thích Nhất Hạnh himself. And it fits with my understanding. We have many folk tales where But is frequently referenced - Bu.t and NOT Phat. The fact that "'Futsu/Butsu/Bu' and 'Bul/Bu", etc. and Bu.t seem to be similar is easily explained: all of them are transliterations of the Sanskrit "'Buddha."
There is no doubt that "Phật" is a short version of "Phật Đà", a Chinese translation of "Buddha", which we can find in many Chinese Buddhist texts.
Further, we can verify it from the internals of the Vietnamese language itself - admittedly the opinion of a non-linguist - while "Phat" is combined with many other Chinese derived words to form compound terms (a sign of its being of Chinese origin), such as "Phật Giáo, Phật Đà, Phật Học, Phật Đường, etc., we can't find a single compound of that form for Bụt ( a sign that it is vernacular Vietnamese).
But, I am happy to be corrected.
-Chung
Chung Nguyen <Chung.Nguyen@umb.edu>
date Apr 6, 2007 6:49 PM
subject RE: [Vsg] Re: innovation in East Asian religion
Another way to look at this is that we have a Chinese character for "Phat", none for "Bụt." Also Buddhism came to VN very early, preceding the introduction of Buddhism to both Japan and Korea. Actually, Luy Lâu in Vietnam, the largest center of Buddhism outside India at the time, preceded the establishment of the Banh Thanh & Lac Duong centers in China.
TNH also proposes that Vietnam should celebrate Khuong Tang Hoi has the Zen patriach of Vietnamese Buddhism, because he preceded Bodhidharma 3 centuries.
-Chung
will pore <willpore@gmail.com>
date Apr 6, 2007 7:05 PM
subject Re: [Vsg] Re: innovation in East Asian religion
Well, that is an interesting story, but I think it still necessary
that someone who knows something about Vietnamese linguistics be able
to comment on /but/ vs. /phat/. In my previous message, I could have
gone on to refer you to the derivation of the graph and pronunciation
of Chinese /fo/ for Buddha. According to "Grammata Serica Recensa"
(1972) by Bernard Karlgren, p. 137, 500, j, the character for Buddha
is a variant of 500a, which in its archaic Chinese pronunciation was
/p'iw(shwa)t/p'iu(shwa)t/. While I would not venture to give the
accurate pronunciation of Karlgren's reconstruction of the archaic
Chinese for that graph, it would seem that /but/ owes something to
that source.
Liam C Kelley <liam@hawaii.edu>
date Apr 6, 2007 8:12 PM
subject Re: [Vsg] Re: innovation in East Asian religion
Since I'm not a linguist, I should probably keep my mouth shut, but I've had more than 1 Vietnamese linguist point out to me that words that most people think come from different sources (i.e., Vietnamese and Chinese), such as ve and hoi (return) and nha and gia (house, home) are actually the same words that entered the Vietnamese language from Chinese at different times. It's not clear to me how that happens, but if that is the case, my bet would be that this would also explain but and phat.
Liam Kelley
U. of Hawaii
Chung Nguyen <Chung.Nguyen@umb.edu>
date Apr 6, 2007 8:51 PM
subject RE: [Vsg] Re: innovation in East Asian religion
There are two facts that, in my humble opinion, confirms that But is of Vietnamese origin:
1) Indian Buddhism came to VN long before Chinese Buddhism had any influence there. The first written record of the presence of Indian monks in Giao Chi (part of today's Vietnam) is under the rule of Si Nhiep (187-226 CE)
At the time, anywhere from 200 BCE to 200 CE Indian monks who wanted to go to China often stopped in Giao Chau/Giao Chi with the aid of the monsoon season, in order to learn Chinese and translate Sanskrit Buddhist text into Chinese. A number of Vietnamese in those days, under the influence of both the state with Hindu-derived culture from the South and China in the North, could speak both Sanskrit and Chinese. After a few years of training, the Indian monks then proceeded north to spread Buddhism.
Khuong Tang Hoi (200? - 280), whose father was a trader coming from India and married a Vietnamese, became an orphaned at age 10. He joined the order and became one of the most illustrious Buddhist masters in VN at the time. According Le Manh That (Khuong Tang Hoi Toan Tap, Van Hanh, 1975) he wrote a Vietnamese Buddhist text called "Luc Do Tap Kinh" (Vol I, p. 10), translated and wrote commentary on the An Ban Thu Y Kinh Chu Giai (still extant) (an essential mediation text), etc. He later came to China to spread Buddhism. He also translated Luc Do Tap Kinh into Chinese (1).
This establishes the fact that the Vietnamese had direct contact with Sanskrit and Sanskrit Buddhist text. At this time, Buddhism in VN was as well if not more, developed than in China. Note also that Mau Bac, who came to Giao Chi in the time of Si Nhiep, was converted to Buddhism there, and wrote the first Treatise ever on Buddhism in Chinese - Ly Hoac Luan, in Giao Chi.
Is it then logical to assume that the Vietnamese should have a vernacular term for the Sanskrit "Buddha", regardless of what or how the Chinese pronounced it ?
2) The Vietnamese pronunciation of Chinese was frozen after the Tang dynasty, when Vietnamese became totally independent of China. The term "Phat," therefore, is how the Vietnamese pronounced it according to Tang Chinese. The "Phat" character remains the same, but its pronunciation could have changed in China, as so many other Chinese words when compared with the Vietnamese today.
Hence, does it make sense to assume that if the "But" came from China, it should sound more like "Phat" rather than different, Eep. when the word "Phat" itself has been Vietnamized, could be used as a Vietnamese vernacular (O^ng Pha^.t, nhu+ Pha^.t, etc.) ?
-Chung
(`1) Le Manh That, "Luc Do tap Kinh va Lich Su Khoi Nguyen Dan Toc Ta, Van Hanh, 1972)
Elise DeVido <aldi_tw@yahoo.com>
date Apr 6, 2007 9:23 PM
subject Re: [Vsg] Re: innovation in East Asian religion
Dear All:
Just a few thoughts:
"But" from "Budh"-Sanskrit, to be aware of, to be awakened
"Phat" -From Chinese "fo", transl. for "Budh"
Some VN Mahayana Buddhists may associate the term But with Theravada...
and Thich Nhat Hanh's teachings are a Mahayana/Theravada/New Age mix (innovation indeed), and may be unfamiliar to Vietnamese Buddhists: some are attracted, some are not.
As for the BSM: In late 1950s, early 1960s, it was "Sister" Chan Khong (then a Buddhist laywoman) who urged Thich Nhat Hahn to promote Buddhist welfare and social service. At that time Thich Nhat Hanh was a young monk best known as a poet. Looking through Buddhist newspapers/journals of the early 1960s (now mostly found in HCM City and Hue), I have found some poems by Thich Nhat Hanh... but the major articles on the Struggle Movement are written by/about other monks senior to him. TNH founded his own journals such as Thien My, and promoted his Tiep Hien Order, the School of Youth for Social Service, his peace activities..(and he was in and out of VN in the 1960s until his exile in 1967).
But these reforms and activities were criticized/opposed by many monks at the time, for various reasons...
The Buddhist Struggle "Movement" is a very complex story with competing factions and personalities and has yet to be adequately studied, though it's a pity, because a number of key people involved are still alive and should be interviewed before it's too late. On the other hand, emotions and arguments (from factional differences and the differing fates of different people in the post-1975 years) still run high after all these years (to put it mildly) so it's very difficult to get an "accurate" picture. Sounds familiar??
John Chapman has a chapter on TNH's 2005 Vietnam lecture tour in Philip Taylor's forthcoming book, "Modernity and Re-Enchantment: Religion in Post-Revolutionary Vietnam," and John Chapman is with the Plum Village Delegation now in Vietnam, so hopefully we can learn more about the "reception" of TNH's practices in Vietnam. (this book also has Pham Quynh Phuong's chapter on female spirit mediums)
OK, enough alread!y!
Best
Elise DeVido (Natl Taiwan Normal Univ)
Chung Nguyen <Chung.Nguyen@umb.edu>
date Apr 6, 2007 9:34 PM
subject RE: [Vsg] Re: innovation in East Asian religion
Let me just correct a bad typo here - "An Ban Thu Y Kinh Chu Giai (based on the Sanskcrit Anapanasati Sutra) is an essential meditation, not "mediation", text. It is this, and others of Khuong Tang Hoi works that prompt TNH to call him the Zen patriarch of Vietnamese Buddhism.
"T. Nguyen" <nguyenthanhbl@yahoo.com>
date Apr 6, 2007 10:25 PM
subject Re: [Vsg] Re: innovation in East Asian religion
"But" actually appeared first in the Vietnamese literature. In "Cu Tran Lac Dao phu" and "Vinh Van Yen Tu phu" both were composed in the 13th century the word "But" was used several times. These pieces of literature were written in the "Nom" characters.
Thanh Nguyen
Michael Churchman <Michael.Churchman@anu.edu.au>
date Apr 6, 2007 11:59 PM
subject Re: [Vsg] Re: innovation in East Asian religion
Both the words "but" and "phat" have the origins in Sanskrit, not Vietnamese, so the argument that one of these terms is "native" Vietnamese and the other not, isn't really justified in the first place. We can say "but" is more nativised than "phat" however, because it does not appear in Sino-Vietnamese compounds. Many asian languages, including varieties of Chinese, share "doublets" (words that have been borrowed at different times from a source language). In English we have the examples loyal (through French) and legal (from Latin). These two words were originally from the same Latin legalis.
If one compares "but"/"phat"Vietnamese with similar cases in Japanese and Hokkien dialect, it is easy to see that Vietnamese is not unusual in having doublets for "but"/"phat" with variations in meaning.
Japanese has two readings for the character ? These have their origins in multiple borrowing of the word from Chinese at different periods. The older borrowing (Three Kingdoms/Chin) is butsu and the newer (T'ang) futsu, originally the only difference between the two was that buddhists preferred to read their Classical Chinese texts with the first, and that Confucian scholars preferred the second. Now in modern Japanese, the last reading of the character is used only when it is an abbreviation of "France", so the meaning of "Buddha" has disappeared completely. There is an even a "native" reading for the same character, hotoke, which is actually an even earlier borrowing from Sanskrit via China. This last word refers to the historical Buddha, but has the wider meanings of "a merciful person" or "a deceased person"
Hokkien (Southern Min) a variety of Chinese spoken in the south of Fukien province, Taiwan and throughout Southeast Asia also has a doublet for Buddha. Like Japanese the early (Chin) form is "put" and the later (T'ang) form is "hut". The first is the ordinaryl colloquial word, whereas the second is used in more literary phrases, and not by itself.
The western half of Giao Chi (northern Vietnam) was indeed an early centre of Buddhism before it spread to places in what is now southern China, but in talking about the time of Si Nhiep, it is important to remember that the area was also home to a large population of intellectuals from further north as well as the westerners who introduced Buddhism. Classical Chinese was the written language in which K'ang Seng Hui made his translations, not any of the many local languages that were spoken in Giao Chi at the time. I am guessing that the translated Buddhist sutras were read out in the Chinese pronunciation of the time.
Like Hokkien and Japanese, Vietnamese also shares the feature of multiple borrowing of vocabulary from Chinese in different time periods. Within Vietnamese itself, the difference between "but" and "phat" is parallel with that between "buo^`ng" and "pho`ng" meaning "room" and "buo^`m" and "pha`m" meaning "sail". Dao Duy Anh's book Chu~' No^m has a long list of such doublets.
Notice also that the question of written form is not so important. "buo^`ng" and "pho`ng" can be written with either a No^m character and a Han character respectively, or the Han character ? can be used for both. There is no separate No^m character for "buo^`m". Sometimes No^m makes no distinction between the earlier and later borrowings from Chinese.
Considering all the above points, I would say that the term "but" is the descendent of a borrowing from Sanskrit via the Chinese of the third or fourth century AD, and that "phat" is the descendent of the reborrowing of the word during the T'ang dynasty.
Michael Churchman
Elise DeVido <aldi_tw@yahoo.com>
date Apr 7, 2007 12:01 AM
subject Re: [Vsg] Re: innovation in East Asian religion
Yet the root must have been Sanskrit, right?
Michele Thompson <thompsonc2@southernct.edu>
date Apr 7, 2007 6:24 AM
subject Re: [Vsg] Re: innovation in East Asian religion
Dear VSGers,
Can anyone input electronically all of the actual characters we are discussing? If I can get them electronically in their archaic forms of Chinese for the earliest period under discussion, there may well be more than one of these, and the Nom for for But, more than one of these if we have them, and hopefully also the Sanskrit these terms may be derived from I'll be happy to send them on to a list that has several paleographers and other specialists who work in both archaic Chinese forms and Sanskrit. As long as we keep discussing these in their qu?c ng? transliteration we aren't really doing much to find an actual answer, we are making interesting and well-educated speculations and that's about it.
cheers
Michele
Chung Nguyen <Chung.Nguyen@umb.edu>
date Apr 7, 2007 6:38 AM
subject RE: [Vsg] Re: innovation in East Asian religion
> Both the words "but" and "phat" have the origins in Sanskrit, not Vietnamese,
Agree. No one argues otherwise. The issue is whether "But" is a Vietnamese adaptation of the Sanskrit "Budh"/ "Buddha" or is it a derivative of the Chinese adaptation of these.
> so the argument that one of these > terms is "native" Vietnamese and the other not, isn't really justified in the first > place. We can say "but" is more nativised than "phat" however, because it does not appear in Sino- Vietnamese compounds.
If it is the former, then But stands for a part of the original Vietnamese interpretation of Buddhism that came directly from India, not by way of China. Hence, it is older. We talk about going back to the source.
Khau Da La, an Indian monk, was instrumental in the spread of a form of Tantric Buddhism, which played a role in the formulation of the belief in the cult of Man Nuong and establishment a series of the earliest temples in the Red Rive delta. The first formal school of Buddhism in Vietnam was established by an Indian monk - Ti Ni Da Luu Chi (Vinitaruci, ? - 594). He arrived in Vietnam in 580.
> Many asian languages, including varieties of Chinese, share "doublets" (words that have been borrowed at different > times from a source language). In English we have the examples loyal (through French) and legal (from Latin). > These two words were originally from the same Latin legalis.
> If one compares "but"/"phat"Vietnamese with similar cases in Japanese and Hokkien dialect, it is easy to see that > Vietnamese is not unusual in having doublets for "but"/"phat" with variations in meaning.
The case of VN vis-a-vis Japan and Korea is different because both Japanese and Korean Buddhism came exclusively from China, much later when compared to VN, and neither was exposed directly to Sanskrit and Indian Buddhism as is the case of Vietnam. The analogy, therefore, may or may not apply.
> The western half of Giao Chi (northern Vietnam) was indeed an early centre of Buddhism before it spread to places > in what is now southern China, but in talking about the time of Si Nhiep, it is important to remember that the area > > was also home to a large population of intellectuals from further north as well as the westerners who
> introduced Buddhism.
But the Buddhism there came from the influence of Indian monks, not Chinese. During this period, several Vietnamese monks were asked by Chinese emperors go to China to deliver dharma lectures to the Court. And several prominent Chinese scholars wrote poems praising the great attainment of Vietnamese monks.
Hence, it is a strain of Vietnamese Buddhism that was home grown, not yet imported from China.
This strain eventually culminates in the Truc Lam Yen Tu school of Buddhism (Bamboo Grove), with King Tran Nhan Tong, Phap Loa, and Huyen Quang as the three original patriarchs. This is an engaged Buddhism, fully emerged in the world, full of power and imagination, as the extant remnants of their works show.
This is not an attempt to draw a hard and fast division between Indian- and China-derived forms of Buddhism with some form of nationalistic agenda. Vietnamese Buddhism, as we know now, has been greatly indebted to Chinese Buddhism. Thich Nhat Hanh himself is a descendant of the Lam Te school from China.
All that TNH attempts, I think, to do is point to the reality of the historical development, and urge Vietnamese to return to the form of Buddhism that had produced some of the best human beings in Vietnamese history, making the Ly and Tran dynasties one of the most illustrious periods of Vietnam. Since then, the state of Buddhism in Vietnamese has consistently deteriorated, becoming more and more divorced from its genuine mission, catering to all sorts of mass-based beliefs and needs that have nothing with the task of enlightenment, or Buddhism itself.
Such as king Tran Nhan Tong - at the pinacle of his power, voluntarily abdicated and became an ascetic monk, building a temple on the wild Yen Tu mountain, devoting himself totally to the task of self training. Then he went barefoot from village to village, trying to disabuse people of superstitous beliefs and teach them the practice of the Ten Virtues, etc.
Nguyen Ba Chung
> Classical Chinese was the written language in which K'ang Seng Hui made his translations, not any of the
> many local languages that were spoken in Giao Chi at the time. I am guessing that the translated Buddhist
> sutras were read out in the Chinese pronunciation of the time.
Le Manh That, in his "Luc Do tap Kinh va Lich Su Khoi Nguyen Dan Toc Ta" (Van Hanh, 1972), has established evidences that this is not true, but it's too complicated to summarize here. His works in the original development of Vietnamese Buddhism, have transformed our understanding of it. Very few of this have been made avaliable in English. One of the first attempt in this direction is the volume "Tran Nhan Tong, A Biographical Study" (Nha xuat ban Tong Hop TP. Ho Chi Minh, 2006)
Some of the works mentioned here are available on the web:
http://www.quangduc.com/tacgia/thichnhathanh.html
http://www.thuvienhoasen.org/index-tacgia-nhathanh.htm
http://www.quangduc.com/tacgia/lemanhthat.html
will pore <willpore@gmail.com>
date Apr 7, 2007 8:07 AM
subject Re: [Vsg] Re: innovation in East Asian religion
Dear Michele,
I don't know if there is a way to input the archaic forms of the
Chinese characters I referred and which appear in "Grammata Serica"
(Karlgren). It might be best to just get a copy of the book and look
at pp. 136-137. The phonetic transcription is also a bit of a pain but
I suppose, if necessary, could be done.
will pore <willpore@gmail.com>
date Apr 7, 2007 8:21 AM
subject Re: [Vsg] Re: innovation in East Asian religion
Do you know what the Tang Chinese pronunciation of the character for
Buddha was? The graph for Buddha in Karlgren is borrowed and modified-
a substitute - based on a much earlier graph with a different meaning
and pronunciation that sounded to the Chinese of the time like the
Sanskrit (probably) 'Budh.' Of course, Buddha, Buddhism, etc. and all
that came originally from Sanskrit/India. I don't think anyone
disputes that.
Michele Thompson <thompsonc2@southernct.edu>
date Apr 7, 2007 8:25 AM
subject Re: [Vsg] Re: innovation in East Asian religion
Dear Will,
I have Karlgren available but without copies of the original texts are we absolutly sure which character was used? Perhaps someone has such copies available?
cheers
Michele
lawrence driscoll <lawdri@hotmail.com>
date Apr 7, 2007 9:08 AM
subject RE: [Vsg] Re: innovation in East Asian religion
Mr. Chung:
>From what you say can it be concluded that this early (Indian) Buddhism reached Vietnam by a more southerly route, say by ship, or overland through Khmer and Champa territories. And if so can we conclude that it was of the Theravada rather than the Mahayana school? And are we talking here of 1st or 2nd century of the current millenium?
Thank you.
Lawrence Driscoll
lawrence driscoll <lawdri@hotmail.com>
date Apr 7, 2007 9:25 AM
subject RE: [Vsg] Re: innovation in East Asian religion
Mr. Chung:
Apologies....that should be "....of the first millenium?" or current era.
Lawrence
Minh Tran <mtran@csulb.edu>
date Apr 7, 2007 5:54 PM
subject Re: [Vsg] Re: innovation in East Asian religion
Nguyen Ba Chung,
I have read somewhere (I have to review my literature)
that the root of Vietnamese Buddhism derived from (or as
early as) the period of Ashoka (304 BCE-232 BCE) when he
propagated the Buddhist religion. From his center in
Northern India, its sea route deems more reliable than any
path by land.
Can you comment on this?
Minh Huynh Tran
Elise DeVido <aldi_tw@yahoo.com>
date Apr 7, 2007 9:02 PM
subject Re: [Vsg] Re: innovation in East Asian religion
Also, we should look at Prof Michael Churchman's masterful explication in an earlier posting; answers many of my questions, thank you Prof Churchman.
Michael Churchman <Michael.Churchman@anu.edu.au>
date Apr 7, 2007 11:23 PM
subject Re: [Vsg] Re: innovation in East Asian religion
Sorry I actually found that book in the link, so I''ll just read it myself
"T. Nguyen" <nguyenthanhbl@yahoo.com>
date Apr 7, 2007 11:43 PM
subject Re: [Vsg] Re: innovation in East Asian religion
Yes. I believe the word "But" comes out as from Sanskrit and it has been used by both Buddhists and non-Buddhist in referring to the Buddha. The founders of Truc Lam Zen School used it in their works composed in No^m characters in the 13th cenetury. Alexandre de Rhodes - a Jesuit priest credited as the person who "devised and popularised" the quoc ngu- also used the word "but" to refer to the Buddha in his attacks against Buddhism in the 17th century.This term "But" was listed as "Than Phat" [God Buddha] in Huynh Tinh Cua's Dai nam Quac Am Tu Vi published in 1898. All of these are in addition to the uses of this word in many folktales and proverbs up to this time could demonstrate that the word has been widely used by Vietnamese when dealing with Buddha in their Vietnamese and No^m, a method that the Vietnamese used to write down their spoken language. It is safely to say that the word "But" is closer to the Vietnamese souls than the word "Phat." It is the word used by commoners and writers who spoke for them.
"Phat" is the Sino-Vietnamese [Han Viet] pronunciation of the word "Fo'" in Chinese. This Vietnamese way of pronouncing Chinese words [Han yu] is actually based on the pronunciation guide [fan qie] in major Chinese dictionaries such as "Kang xi," "Ci Hai," and "Ci Yuan." For example, the pronunciation guide of the word "Fo'" is listed as "fu wu qie" [phu vat thiet]. One would take ph from "phu" and combine it with at in "vat" and the word must be pronounced in sino-Vietnamese as phat. "Phat" comes directly from Chinese and the Vietnamese used this word when they wrote their works in Chinese, an official writing system for the nation for a long time.
Nhat Hanh used the word "Phat" in his major works that set the foundation for what referred to now as "Vietnamese Engaged Buddhism": Dao Phat ngay nay [Today's Buddhism] and Dao Phat hien dai hoa [Modernization of Buddhism] in 1964, Dao Phat di vao cuoc doi [Buddhism engaging in life], Tuong lai thien hoc Viet Nam [The Future of Vietnamese Zen], Tuong lai van hoa Viet Nam [The Future of Vietnamese Culture], Trai tim mat troi [the Sun my heart] in 1982. He has actually used the word "But" formally in his talks and writings in just a litle more than a decade ago. This change may denote his desire for Vietnamese Buddhism to manifest its special characteristics and not being a copy of Chinese Buddhism. His intention in this area was very much welcome and received in Ho Chi Minh city based on the observations of several of my friends there.