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From: David Waters
Date: Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 11:20 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Mark Zuckerberg vacations in Vietnam, Facebook not welcome
CBSNews
Chenda Ngak
December 27, 2011
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-501465_162-57348806-501465.html
The article says that Facebook is banned in Vietnam. A friend recently informed me that Facebook has not been banned in Vietnam for about eight months to a year. Is it or is it not banned?
Thanks
D. D. Waters
UW-Madison
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From: Skyler Wiet
Date: Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 11:31 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
I read that article today as well, and the author is indeed misinformed. I have come across this misconception quite often and, unfortunately, this article has already been reposted and retweeted enough to further perpetuate the myth.
For an introduction to digital media in Vietnam, have a look at Singapore Management University's wiki. There are some interviews near the bottom with a blogger, digital marketing executive, and the VP of ZingMe (Facebook's major competitor in Vietnam - also Vietnam's homegrown social media channel).
Skyler
Skyler Wiet
Executive Director
SOSRES
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From: David Brown
Date: Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 9:00 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
As of early this month, it was still the case that folks who try to access Facebook through a server located in Vietnam typically will not succeed. It is presumed that Vietnamese internet service providers have received instructions to block Facebook, and that emphasis on compliance is occasionally intensive (e.g., during the Party congress in January 2011). Thus patrons of 'internet cafes' often encounter difficulties. There's a simple workaround used by both Vietnamese and expats -- adjust your machine's DNS settings so that they access the internet via an offshore server.
David Brown
quondam FSO, occasional journalist
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From: Jo
Date: Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 9:34 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
This news story says: “To date, Facebook has 4 million members in Vietnam.”
http://english.vietnamnet.vn/en/science-technology/16933/facebook-s-ceo-visits-vietnam.html
Joanna K.
Vis. Anth.
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From: Bill Hayton
Date: Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 1:15 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
I'm not sure of the exact situation at the moment but my understanding was that Facebook was never 'banned'. However Internet Service Providers removed Facebook from their Domain Name Servers so that anyone typing in www.facebook.com could not access the site. however, users who knew the 'real' IP address (123.456.789.123 or whatever) could easily bypass the block. It was just a way of inconveniencing users to encourage them to transfer their social networking to Zing or another Vietnamese-controlled site.
Bill Hayton
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From: Carl Robinson
Date: Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 2:22 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Well, the best solution is for some hard-working foreign correspondent in Hanoi to formally pose that question -- ie, is Facebook "banned" or not -- to the Vietnamese Government, say that Foreign Affairs spokesman who's always on TV and has a bit of profile. Right now, the government doesn't admit to blocking anything on the internet, I'm sure. But the reality is that they do although it's nothing like China's great wall. (I'm sure it's more than simply wanting to direct traffic to a local version of Facebook.) Similarly, the government won't admit how much it controls what the media can and cannot say. One good current example is that the media are not allowed to report that Vietnam's has a sky-rocketing inflation rate of 20%. (Oh, and don't forget, they never had troops in the South during the war either.) Opaqueness rules.
Cheers and best,
Carl Robinson
Former AP Correspondent, Saigon. 1968-75.
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From: phuxuan700@gmail.com
Date: Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 3:12 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Some related articles:
"Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg has chosen a perhaps surprising destination for the holiday season: Vietnam, where the social-networking site is frequently blocked by local Communist authorities.
...
But while Mr. Zuckerberg might be enjoying himself in the country, Facebook itself doesn’t have quite so smooth a ride.
Access to the site is often difficult in the single-party state, earning Vietnam stinging criticism from the United States and other governments that say the policy limits freedom of expression and potentially crimps contact between Vietnamese businesses and the outside world."
http://www.viet.rfi.fr/viet-nam/20111228-tin-don-mang-xa-hoi-facebook-tai-viet-nam-sap-duoc-giai-toa
Did they indeed have troops in the South during the war ?
I thought folks in the South stood up on their own to liberate themselves from the yoke of imperialists and their puppets who were so "corrupted"! :-)))
Here is another piece of recent news:
http://www.vietnamnet.vn/vn/xa-hoi/54680/gia-dinh-quan-danh-co-thua-25-ty-dong-soc-nang.html
FYI, this mid-level party cadre in a small province lost roughly US$1,500,000 in gambling.
Where he got his money in a country whose per capita income (2010) is less than US$1,500 ?
Calvin Thai
Independent Researcher
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From: Carl Robinson <robinsoncarl88@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 3:40 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Thanks for the last link, Calvin. Now, we know why all those highway bridges over canals along Route 1A through Soc Trang province enroute to Ca Mau were taking so long to complete! From the rather rough Google translation, it sounds like he was also running a private business.
Cheers,
Carl
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From: Geoffrey Cain
Date: Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 4:03 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Carl is right. The government has never "banned" Facebook. But Facebook has always been accessible (at least to me while in Vietnam earlier this year) using the Google public DNS address which is 8.8.8.8. I have also been able to access Facebook at Vietnamese universities which are supposed to be tightly controlled by the government.
It seems the government uses a "bamboo firewall" rather than a "Great Firewall" like in China. But unlike the trite explanation that Skyler Wiet suggested, Vietnamese authorities have fostered a private ban of Facebook by using "unofficial" tools to their advantage. Multiple bloggers and government officials told me during a Fulbright scholarship last year that government officials use political and financial incentives to "urge" private companies to put certain websites on their block lists. I will not name those companies or media outlets until my research is published, but my data suggest that they are not only Vietnamese but also American technology companies.
China does this too. As did certain North African countries trying to fend off the Arab Spring. For more information, check out Rebecca MacKinnon's forthcoming book, Consenting of the Networked: The Worldwide Struggle for Internet Freedom, to be published this February.
Contrary to what Skyler Wiet said, the Communist Party is not very competent at censoring, and this will be their downfall in thefuture.
--
Geoffrey Cain | Journalist
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From: Kiet Tran
Date: Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 5:34 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear all, I live in VN for almost 2 years now. Usually use facebook.
Dear Carl, would like to ask for your forecast of the communist party's downfall? Although i live here im not quite up to date with politics and current situation around here as very few VNese I know really discuss politics/art/music/hobbies/literature/world events/ideologies in their daily lives (maybe for good reasons, hehe). For that matter, dont want to sound negative but to share my experience, i feel ever since i set my foot in VN, it has been completely void for me of those topics.
Kiet
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From: Skyler Wiet
Date: Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 5:36 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Well, Geoffrey Cain, you're not above tying insults into your contributions, are you? More importantly, you seem to miss my point: the original article is wrong insofar as it implies the existence of a policy banning Facebook. That's simply not the case. And I urge you not to quote me based on your assumptions. I did not say anything about the government's censorship ability.
In fact, it's not a case of the government not enforcing or not being able to enforce a ban. Maybe you have a problem understanding the difference between legislation and political influence? It's no secret that government-backed or approved businesses have more success in Vietnam, and that their competition encounters more market barriers. That said, you can't equate Facebook access in Vietnam with a government ban, which the government has previously denied. Despite your stale observation about backroom incentives, implementation to block Facebook is uneven at best. Facebook's usage has penetrated Vietnam to the point that it isn't just used as a marketing tool to reach consumers, it is an essential part of any digital strategy. Ngo Thanh Van's Facebook page has nearly 200,000 Likes - up nearly 20,000 since October. ZingMe considers it a direct competitor while Alexa puts it at the #4 accessed site in the country via www.facebook.com. And, as of 7.32am, both Facebook.com and 69.63.181.11 worked to access Facebook in Vietnam.
Finally, it is important to understand that decisions to block access can come from National Assembly legislation, ministerial declarations, or via VNPT regulations.
Skyler
Skyler Wiet
Executive Director
SOSRES
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From: Carl Robinson
Date: Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 5:44 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Hi, Kiet Tran:
That was Geoff Cain referring to the eventual downfall of the Communist Party, not me. But I do agree that the authorities' control over the internet is much more benign than, say, in China.
As for being up to date with politics/etc inside Vietnam today, you must be in soft-focus and just having fun. But if you follow current news, even just local newspapers, you will easily find many people who are very well informed and quite ready to speak privately what they think and what is really happening.
Cheers,
Carl
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From: Carl Robinson
Date: Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 5:52 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sorry, Skyler, but I cannot agree that Geoffrey Caine is being deliberately "insulting" in his remarks. No need to be overly sensitive here as we discuss -- or try to discuss -- this issue.
Perhaps there is not a formal policy banning Facebook in Vietnam, but it's certainly not that easy to access unless you happen to know a young Vietnamese or two. Tourists certainly have problems and at the very least that hardly projects a very positive image for the government.
Best,
Carl
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From: Skyler Wiet
Date: Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 7:21 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
The ISP that is used does have an impact on general web censorship. VNTP, Viettel, Netnam, and FPT Telecom, for example, filter sites differently, which was demonstrated in an Opennet study. This is perhaps a reflection of the varying political pressures on and other linkages to the ISPs and any case of this does not reflect well on the government within the international community. You're also right in stating that the Vietnamese youth are more equipped (vs. tourists) at getting around blockages when they do come up. But in the context of Facebook, while there are access points where it is more difficult to log-on, it is increasingly becoming integrated into Vietnamese web culture and very little effort. Consider the ISP, VNTP, for example; a search query on the website returns 72 results, including locally hosted articles. And on a peripheral note, VNExpress, Dan Tri, and Kênh14 all have comprehensive coverage of Facebook, including “Cha d?” Facebook's visit to Vietnam, of which I have not yet read a reference to its censorship.
Skyler
Skyler Wiet
Executive Director
SOSRES
Office +1/424.259.2249
Office +39/069.294.8961
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From: Paul Sorrentino
Date: Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 3:39 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
I think part of the disagreement in this discussion derives from the
use of the word "ban". I am no specialist, but as far as I know, there
is, technically speaking, no such thing as ban on the internet.
Talking about filtering is more appropriate - we might say filtering
is the way the political decision of banning a website is technically
enforced. And this makes a big difference.
None of the data of facebook is physically located inside Vietnam
(just as most of the data of the world wide web). Internet traffic in
Vietnam passes through several gateways : it is not like all of the
data was running through a single wire that the state could control.
Therefore, monitoring the whole traffic of the country is technically
impossible, just as it is in China, where the "great firewall" is,
strictly speaking, not a proper firewall.
Local authorities can use several methods to control flows of data
directly (like DNS poisoning) or undirectly. In the latter case,
internet access providers play a key role as they can filter certain
IP addresses (and therefore websites) to all of their customers.
Search engines also have their part, as they can decide (like Google
did in several countries) to stop displaying the results obtained with
specific keywords according to local policy (again : political "ban"
is enforced by technical filtering, often by a different actor). But
there is no perfect filtering method, that is no perfect technical
enforcement of a political "ban" decision, as many solutions exist :
use of alternate DNS server, online proxy...
Coming back to facebook, there obviously is a filtering of the website
in Vietnam. It is not perfect, nor homogenic, but it does exist. And
of course, the question of the reasons why, for example, certain
internet access providers filter facebook while others don't, is not
technical but political.
Paul Sorrentino
Université Paris Descartes
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From: Geoffrey Cain
Date: Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 3:18 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Skyler, that is certainly not intended to be an insult to you. Actually, my statement was a fair criticism leveled at your claim that the Facebook ban is a myth, and that the writer of that article was misinformed.
I am particularly challenging the distinction between outright state-invoked bans and the use of political influence to filter websites. Most authoritarian regimes rely on networks of compliant businesses, universities, hacker groups, and other civil society actors to enforce their will on the Internet. This gives them the legitimacy to place certain websites on block lists. To do otherwise would be costly and burdensome for regimes such as those in China and Vietnam.
China, for instance, depends on some universities to charge exorbitant fees for students to access content based outside of the country, effectively a ban against popular social networking websites. The government also carries out its cyber-operations vicariously through "GhostNet," a Hainan-based cyber-spying network, along with other privately run hacking operations.
Vietnam employs a lighter version of the Chinese model, but using similar tactics that mobilize civil society and businesses in its favor. It is fair to use the label "Facebook ban" even if the government uses decentralized tactics and is not the lone censor.
User statistics are not enough to write off talk off a Facebook ban as a myth. During sensitive times, such as around the 11th Party Congress last year, the government does compel companies to enforce this ban quite strictly. It does take some tech know-how to get around the cordon, even though many young people do circumvent it. But the wall nonetheless exists and it is probably overseen at the top, likely from some conservative Politburo members who have risen to power in the past 5-6 years. I am particularly interested in the role of one China-linked ideologue, To Huy Rua, who appears to have stepped up online censorship and crackdowns against bloggers. That is another discussion, but if anyone has anything to add on that, it would be appreciated.
Cheers,
Geoff
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