Copyright from NLV --> language question (Minh Huong)
John Phan jdp49 at cornell.edu
Sat Apr 9 07:05:54 PDT 2016
Dear VSG,
Has anyone gone through the process of acquiring copyright from the
National Library of Vietnam for images before? I am using some images from
a few colonial texts--magazines that are no longer published, but which are
held at the library. I'd appreciate any advice anyone might have!
Sincerely, John
--
John D. Phan, Ph.D.
Visiting Assistant Professor
Department of Asian Languages & Cultures
Rutgers University
337 Scott Hall
43 College Avenue
New Brunswick, NJ 08901
David Marr david.marr at anu.edu.au
Mon Apr 11 18:01:26 PDT 2016
In my 2013 book, Vietnam: State, War and Revolution (1945-1946), six of my 30 illustrations are courtesy of the National Library of Vietnam. They all come from periodicals of those years, including several cartoons from the VN Nationalist Party newspaper. I received a letter of permission from the Library’s director, which UC Press found adequate for the purpose.
David Marr
ANU
Mon Apr 11 20:18:31 PDT 2016
Hi
I was wondering if anyone had heard the term "Minh Huong" in reference to Chinese people in/around Chau Doc and southern Delta? I have it in my field notes as meaning "mixed blood" but maybe this is wrong or offensive. not sure! Some Vietnamese friends say it means simply "Chinese". Does anyone know about the term or know of reference for it? Many thanks in advance.
Brett
Anh Pham gaupvn at gmail.com
Mon Apr 11 20:30:53 PDT 2016
Hi Brett,
The information can be found here.
https://vi.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minh_H%C6%B0%C6%A1ng
When the Ming (Minh in Vietnamese) dynasty was defeated and replaced by the
Qing (Thanh), many Chinese loyal to the Minh came down to Vietnam to avoid
living under the Manchurian Thanh perhaps in a similar manner many
Americans are moving to Canada when Mr. Trump becomes US president next
January. Those people called themselves Minh Huong (Those who carry on the
Ming's worshipping). Huong in worshipping was later replaced with
homophonic huong meaning village. Thus Minh huong became the village of
Ming loyalists.
Anh Pham
Canadian immigration consultant
Washington DC
Diane Fox dnfox70 at gmail.com
Mon Apr 11 21:22:02 PDT 2016
Yes...that's what I've often heard as well.
Diane
Shawn McHale mchale at gwu.edu
Tue Apr 12 05:19:27 PDT 2016
Perhaps a most accurate way to think of Minh Huong in 2016 is that the
patriline has Minh Huong ancestor(s) -- i.e. Chinese who were, long ago,
fleeing the Ming -- but that the patriline may well have intermarried with
Vietnamese. By the 1930s, the term had often come to refer, in southern
Vietnam, to those of mixed Sino-Vietnamese ancestry who still showed
connections to Chinese culture. Before 1933, they were considered Chinese
citizens. After, they were considered French, then eventually, Vietnamese
citizens.
Shawn McHale
David Brown nworbd at gmail.com
Tue Apr 12 07:59:59 PDT 2016
Wikipedia has an unusually good discussion (under the heading 'Hoa people')
of the waves of Chinese migration in the 17th and 18th centuries to Vietnam
or, rather, the Cambodian frontier lands that were to become southern
Vietnam.
Li Tana's excellent book on Nguyen Cochinchina is a primary source.
David Brown
Writer/analyst
Fresno, California USA
Mike High mike.high at earthlink.net
Tue Apr 12 09:23:37 PDT 2016
The best discussion that I have found of the historical use of the term “minh hương” is in Southern Vietnam Under the Reign of Minh Mạng, Choi Byung Wook, pages 38-41. (Also see his article in Water Frontier.)
I would note that the original use of minh hương, as “Ming loyalists” (those who burn incense to the Ming), should not be taken at face value. The largest groups of Chinese refugees, who came in 1679, were anti-Qing, to be sure, but not ralliers around any Ming pretender or restoration movement. They might be better described as regional warlords resisting imperial control on the contested southeastern coastline, often engaging in pillaging and acts of piracy. There is an excellent biographical synopsis of the leader of the troupe that settled at Mỹ Tho in 1679, Yang Yandi / Dương Ngạn Địch (thanks to Hue Tam Ho Tai for pointing this out to me):
"Righteous Yang”: Pirate, Rebel, and Hero on the Sino-Vietnamese Water Frontier, 1644-1684
https://cross-currents.berkeley.edu/e-journal/issue-11/antony <https://cross-currents.berkeley.edu/e-journal/issue-11/antony>
The Nguyễn court at Phú Xuân must have been aware of the depredations of these fleets, and wisely determined to settle them on the frontier. Describing them as “Ming loyalists” was probably a convention suitable to both parties.
The "Minh Hương" were later followed by the Thanh Nhân (Qing people), who were merely seeking to find employment or conduct trade. Eventually, according to Wook, the Thanh Nhân were forced to register with the Minh Hương associations. (According to Wook, Minh Mạng’s change of “hương” from “incense” to “village” in 1827 was intended to diminish the status of the Chinese in the south) And the term also took on a different dimension as it came to be used for any Chinese immigrants who intermarried with Vietnamese.
At least that’s what I have been able to parse out from the sources that I have read.
:: Mike High
Great Falls, Virginia
USA
Tue Apr 12 18:25:25 PDT 2016
Thanks everyone for the responses
[a bit of context] A colleague had noticed the
specific nature of collective death ceremonies among 'Chinese'
Vietnamese people in part of the delta at the end of the dry season. I had some
stuff about that in my own field notes about it but when I went to look through them I found one of my groupings was 'Minh Huong' - but no reference as to
where I got the term from, other than an informant's name - whom I no
longer have contact with. So I asked around (using email) and some people said it referred to, or could refer to "mixed blood" and others said it was "Chinese". Some responses, however, were 'positive' while others less so! It is interesting that historically the meaning is linked to burning incense and that death ceremony practices of (maybe but not sure) of descendents of people who emigrated later (maybe late 19th century) can potentially define a group of people.
Again thanks for the references
Brett
John Phan jdp49 at cornell.edu
Tue Apr 12 05:55:00 PDT 2016
Dear Professor Marr and everyone,
Many thanks for your advice on this matter. My publishers also suggested,
in lieu of a living author or still-operating publisher, that I seek
permission from the NLV. I am in the middle of procuring a letter from
them just in case, and I am also checking out the US and French archives as
well. In any case, as some of you have explained, it doesn't seem like
copyright will really be an issue here.
Thanks again to everyone.
Sincerely, John