Tho and Moi

From: VSG-owner@u.washington.edu [mailto:VSG-owner@u.washington.edu]On

Behalf Of Hue Tam H. Tai

Sent: Thursday, October 28, 1999 6:22 AM

To: Vietnam Studies Group

Subject: tho and moi

to Steve et al:

In the South, the term "Tho" (Chinese "t'u") which might very roughly be rendered as "indigenous" tended to be used as a derogatory term for Khmers while "moi" which does mean "savage" was more likely to be used for upland minorities. Dong bao thuong was an attempt by the SVN government to be more respectful (even if only when speaking) toward mountain minorities. In premodern time, there was a bureaucratic position "tho ty" (Chinese t'u ssu) which was reserved for local official in charge of minority affairs. Wasn't Le Loi a tho ty? So I wonder whether "tho" in the anecdote you relate, Steve, refers to a specific group or to a larger category, and used interchangeably with "dong bao thieu so." It is not unusual for people to use both the common and un-p.c. terminology and the more official, more neutral terminology all in one breath.

I believe that the term Cham as opposed to Champa (Chiem Thanh) is of fairly recent coinage. You are right that premodern Vietnamese rulers did not bother much about the ethnicity of their subjects. In that sense, the very concept of minority is a byproduct of the attempt to construct a majority (see your colleague Dru Gladney's edited book, Making Majorities). Dru Gladney, Jonathan Lipman, Frank Dikotter and others have in fact pointed out the influence of the German concept of the volk on the construction of race and national identity in China. I would suspect that the same thing happened in Vietnam. The year that the Tonkin campaign began, Ernest Renan gave his lecture at the College de France which is much quoted in American discussions of nations and nationalism, "Qu'est ce qu'une nation?" in which he discussed the respective contribution of Franks and Gauls in the making of France (we come back to your query re: "nos ancetres les Gaulois.")

Best,

Hue-Tam Ho Tai

Date: Thu, 28 Oct 1999 07:53:34 +0700

From: "Frank Proschan" <proschan@indiana.edu

To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu

Subject: RE: tho and moi

From Dang Nghiem Van's chapter on ethnonyms, "About the Ethnonyms of Ethnicities and Local Groups in Vietnam" in his 1998 collection, __Ethnological and religious problems in Vietnam; Problèmes ethnologiques et religieux du Viet Nam__. Hà Noi: Social sciences publishing house. (Below without quoc ngu.)

"Some ethnonyms are derived not from a specific geographic place name, but from a feature of a group's resident in an area. The word Tho is used to designate those ethnicities who lived for the longest period in a given area. Before the August Revolution, this word was used to indicate not only the Tày and Nùng (Cao Lan) but also a part of the Thái in Ðà Bac district, Hòa Bình province, and another ethnicity in Nghe An belonging to the Viet-Muong language family; today the name is reserved for this latter group."

Frank Proschan

--

Research Associate

Indiana University

From: "SEACOM" <seacom@eyeonline.de

To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu

Subject: Re: tho and moi

Dear Steve and all,

the term "Tho" is also a designation for an ethnic group in North Vietnam (dan toc Tho) belonging to the Viet-Muong language family (classification according to Dang Nghiem Van/ Chu Thai Son and Luu Hung: Les ethnies minoritaires du Vietnam, Hanoi 1986; also To Ngoc Thanh: Musical instruments of Vietnam`s ethnic minorities, Hanoi 1997)

Vietnames scholars in their works mostly make clear which ethnic group or sub-group they mean by using the term dan toc (in german simly "Ethnie", in English maybe "ethnic minority"?, but "dan toc" does not include "minority") and adding the name of the language group or the family (dan toc /name of the group/; for example dan toc Thai den for the Black Thai; or for classification of several groups of one language family they use cac dan toc /name of the language family/ for example cac dan toc Thai-Tay for the Tai-speaking groups, dan toc Mon-Kh`mer etc.) I mean, these designations are neutral enough to be used in academic dispute. The strict usage of these desigantions might be part of the early SRV´s policy to abandon terms with negative connotation, such as "montagnards", for example. Nguoi mien nui or dan toc mien nui is seldom to be found in scholarly works. We have translated several works of Cam Trong on the Black Thai, there the designation dan toc Thai den is used strictly.) Part of this policy also was to have member of the ethnic groups as researchers in the National Institue of Ethnology, in the Museum of Ethnology and in several Universities. Cam Trong, Vi Van An and Hoang Luong for example - well known scholars specilizing in Thai studies - all are members of the dan toc Thai. The same polica one can find in Laos. There, also members of the ethnic groups were involved in research. In Laos, all the ethnic groups are classified as "Lao Loum" (meaning lowland Lao, includes all Tai-Lao speaking peoples), "Lao Theung" (meaning highland Lao, including all Mon-Khmer speaking peoples) and "Lao Soung" (meaning mountain Lao, includes all Hmong-Yao and Tibeto-Burman speaking peoples). there was not longer made a difference between minorities and majorities. This policy - at least officially - constructed an atmosphere of equality between the different ethnic groups. Nevertheless, designations with negative connotations as they were used since centuries ("Meo" for the Hmong, of "Kha" for the Mon-Khmer speaking groups) are used inofficially further on.

Best greetings,

Jana Raendchen (also in the name of Oliver Raendchen)

SEACOM southeast asia communication centre Berlin

From: Chuong Chung <cchung@ccsf.cc.ca.us

To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu

Subject: Re: tho and moi

Dear all,

I remember reading these scholar/beauty and knight errand type of novellas (tieu thuyet) the term" tho" is often connected with the "tho phi" which is a brigand (highway robbers). Then, my folks in refering to the minorities use several terms: Mien or Men (in this case Cao Mien or Cao Men to talk about Cambodian and not Yu-Mien) again they put together these thang Mien, thang Tho (to refer to the darker skin folks and i would think that it does have a pejorative meaning) to talk or to refer to the minorities. Parents to get children to go home or to listen to them threatened "coi chung thang Tho no bat!" (you might get kidnapped by these minorities) I guess to go back to the etymology of the words if "tho" cames from "Tho Ty" then what is the "Nom' or the "Han Viet" character representing it? How do we write "tho phi" in Han Viet? Whethe Tho Ty and Tho ty have the same "Tho" character?

I guess Michele and Nina in asking where you could find the translation of Montagnard as Sauvage, they raised a valid question. I have not found these translations in Baudesson' Primitive People of Indo-China although he refered to the highlanders as "Moi" but then the term "Moi" is not French. It is Vietnamese. The question again whether the Vietnamese coined this term "Moi" or they translated from "sauvages"?

Earlier, Steve Denney talked about Nguyen Van Huy and the Museum of Ethnic Vietnam. There all monorities are called "nguoi dan toc" and not " nguoi dan toc thieu so" Should we use "nguoi dan toc" as well?

Cheers,

Chung Hoang Chuong