Sociology of Vietnamese traffic behavior
From: greg nagle <gnagle2000@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2023 3:12 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: [Vsg] Sociology of Vietnamese traffic behavior
Here are links to two articles by a VSG member.
I wondered if anyone has access to sources on the sociology of traffic?
I am not trying to stir up complaints from foreigners stressed by traffic here but hope to gain some real. insights.
I note that over time things do change a lot in various countries such as Kenya where I spent a lot of time over the decades.
And in the US traffic safety has much improved. It used to be that drinking and driving was too often considered sort of. a joke but not anymore
But I find Vietnam curious and they have long had a reputation for bad traffic behavior. An Indian friend says Hanoi is much worse.
I do not know if this is due to moving from a bicycle culture to motor bikes; And cars have made it much worse since drivers often behave as if they are on a bike.
As Mark mentions in his article he will not use a motor bike in Hanoi.
With a severe hearing loss I think I would get maimed or killed, I will not even use a bicycle there.
Driven to praise, driving me nuts: a US-Vietnam traffic comparison - VnExpress International
Driven to praise, driving me nuts: a US-Vietnam traffic comparison - VnE...
VnExpress
Anyone who knows me or has read my work knows that I can be severely critical of my home country. My criticism i...
When in Vietnam, drive as the Vietnamese do - VnExpress International
When in Vietnam, drive as the Vietnamese do - VnExpress International
VnExpress
An expat shares some philosophical reflections and practical tips on the free-for-all that is Vietnamese traffic.
From: Tan Pham <nxb315kio@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2023 1:47 AM
To: greg nagle <gnagle2000@yahoo.com>
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Sociology of Vietnamese traffic behavior
Interesting, thanks, Greg.
I used to ride my bike in VN but not anymore. Sooner or later, I decided that I would have an accident, so I stopped. Hanoi was the worst. No one stopped at the traffic lights, even within sight of the police. Saigon was a little better as people did get stopped for traffic offences. I figured in Hanoi, there are a lot of connections between the local people and senior officials, and if you get stopped, you can always call your contact and make the policeman feel threatened. So he lets you go and as a result, does not bother to catch the next guy.
I often wonder why the Vietnamese traffic department does not make traffic fines part of the police income, say on a 30:70 (or 100%) split between the individual police officer and the department. The police officers will take home more than their meager income, the department will have a bigger budget, and traffic accidents will go down. Everyone wins!! Perhaps they have such a policy but I do not know about it.
That aside, I suspect that there is a deeper reason for this lack of discipline. Respect for law and order and rule compliance principle does not go well with "everything is negotiable, luồn lách", which seems to fit well with the adaptable Vietnamese !!! Perhaps they need that to survive, so now we go full circle.
Kind regards,
Tan Pham
Author of a book series on Vietnamese history: A Traveller’s Story of Vietnam’s Past.
Volume One: The Bronze Drums and The Earrings.
Volume Two: One Thousand Years - The Stories of Giao Châu, the Kingdoms of Linyi, Funan and Zhenla.
From: Ben Quick <bnquick74@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2023 2:55 AM
To: Tan Pham <nxb315kio@gmail.com>
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Sociology of Vietnamese traffic behavior
Greg, I’m personally believe the main culprit is the proliferation of the automobile. I just don’t think we have the infrastructure to handle so many cars. I know that is rather simplistic thinking, and I have nothing but anecdotal evidence to support the theory. As you know, I also live in Đà Nẵng, where traffic is nowhere near as bad as it is ỉn HCMC or Hanoi.
Best,
Ben
From: Chuck Searcy <chuckusvn@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2023 3:42 AM
To: Tan Pham <nxb315kio@gmail.com>
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Sociology of Vietnamese traffic behavior
Tan Pham, Greg and Mark, everyone,
Surely there have been research studies and analysis that dig into the traffic situation in Viet Nam, but I have not seen them.
Others may also remember, in late 1994 and into 1995 when I first settled in Ha Noi, there were no traffic lights. Vehicles at that time consisted mainly of bicycles and motorbikes, with a few trucks, rarely any automobile except an occasional embassy or ministry black sedan. But the traffic weaved its way smoothly through intersections, with drivers giving way or accelerating slightly as they calculated the safest way to negotiate the intersection. I don't recall seeing any accidents except an occasional tire bump as drivers misjudged who would get the right of way, but the speed was so slow that any danger was minimized.
Some years later, does anyone remember the tragically ironic incident in which a distinguished international professor was attending a several-day seminar in Ha Noi, and as he and a colleague went to lunch one day they stepped off the curb to cross the street? A motorbike hit the distinguished professor, he fell, and he died from his injury. He had been engaged in conversation with his colleague about his intention to come back to Viet Nam and research the traffic system here, applying his knowledge of "chaos theory" to the seemingly random practices of Viet Nam's drivers. Unfortunately, he never got the opportunity to undertake that research.
Although I consider myself an excellent driver, and safe, I gave up my motorbike after about 15 years in Ha Noi, mainly because I did not trust the occasional rogue driver who was not paying enough attention. I still use xe ôms, but mostly taxis or rental cars. (I am determined to master Ha Noi's bus system in 2023.)
I think most cities in Viet Nam do have a fine system for traffic violations, but it is "informal" (shall we say?) and the money probably gets pocketed. Does it help at all in reducing speeds or minimizing accidents? Who knows. A formal measure that would probably help would be a raise in salaries for traffic police, legitimate and transparent, with written receipts of payment provided to violators. That would require some administration, however, and some basic equipment such as a smart phone platform to record everything about the violation and payment.
There are no easy solutions. The best rule is to be careful, cautious, watchful, and confident. Most drivers do want to avoid accidents, which are a pain in the neck, even minor incidents from which all parties may walk away, but nobody is aiming to cause injury or create a problem so we're mostly on the same team.
Chuck Searcy
====================================
CHUCK SEARCY
International Advisor, RENEW
President, Veterans For Peace Chapter 160
NGO Agent Orange / Disability Working Group
71 Trần Quốc Toản
Hà Nội, Việt Nam
Skype chucksearcy
Cell VN +8 490 342 0769
Email chuckusvn@gmail.com
Web www.vfp160.org
Web www.renewvn.org
====================================
From: Hue-Tam Tai <huetamtai@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2023 6:12 AM
To: Chuck Searcy <chuckusvn@gmail.com>; nxb315kio@gmail.com
Cc: vsg@u.washington.edu
Subject: [Vsg] WwRe: Sociology of Vietnamese traffic behavior
I first visited Hanoi in 1993. At the time, there were very few bicycles and no mopeds let alone cars. No traffic lights either. In Saigon two years later, there were numerous cars and plenty of mopeds. We sat in our car on the Y bridge for two hours because no one, either in car, on moped or on foot, would cede ground. The couple of cops who showed up to try to undo this traffic knot got beaten up by irate pedestrians!
A few years later, an MIT professor was gravely wounded wnile trying to cross a street along Hoan Kiem lake. Ironically, he was in Hanoi to discuss how to unsnarl traffic. Since then, some traffic lights have appeared, but not enough.
i actually think cars obey traffic light better than mopeds and motorbikes as they cannot weave in and around in order to gain a few inches. I have relatives who got hurt falling off their mopeds as a result of being hit by other mopeds. There are not enough traffic lights, especially at major intersections.
Hue-Tam Ho Tai
Harvard University emerita
From: Andrew Wells-Dang <andrewwd@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2023 6:52 AM
To: vsg@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] WwRe: Sociology of Vietnamese traffic behavior
Hi, since both Chuck and Hue-Tam have mentioned the story, the MIT professor who was critically injured crossing the street in Hanoi was Seymour Papert, described in one site as "a groundbreaking mathematician, computer scientist, and educator". The accident happened in 2006 (so it's not the cause of traffic lights), and Papert survived, after being in a coma and a long recovery. He died in 2016 at age 88. See http://tech.mit.edu/V126/N59/59papert.html and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Papert.
OK, back to some late-breaking political news... reality is indeed stranger than fiction.
Andrew Wells-Dang
US Institute of Peace, Washington
From: Chau NGUYEN NGOC <yakiribocou@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2023 12:28 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Sociology of Vietnamese traffic behavior
Dear all,
From 1989 to 2009, I went to Viet Nam four times a year on average because I covered Asia for my work and I took advantage of my travels in the region to spend a few days in Viet Nam.
So I was able to see the economic and political evolution of the regime for thirty years. Thus, of Đổi Mới, I lived the implementations and realizations, not only as a simple observer, especially in the banking sector (central bank and commercial bank) which was my speciality. I talked a little bit about it in my first book.
Regarding street traffic, in the late 1980s and early 1990s, there were few cars, especially in Hà Nội. But the people on the spot pointed out to me that this did not prevent accidents with human death - and not always anyone - created by the few cars of the time - military vehicles -. At certain times in the political life of the country, people were probably too preoccupied to pay attention to the cars passing on the street.
Nguyễn Ngọc Châu
Visitez mon site https://sites.google.com/view/nguyenngocchau/accueil
From: Carl Robinson <robinsoncarl88@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2023 10:48 PM
To: Chuck Searcy <chuckusvn@gmail.com>
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Sociology of Vietnamese traffic behavior
Hi everyone -- and what a great conversation.
I've been a motorbike rider in Vietnam since the 'old days' back in '68 and feel right at home out there on the streets and out into the countryside, including some epic trips. Sure, it's more crowded than ever out there, but I reckon Vietnamese motorbike riders are incredibly courteous, polite, accommodating and amazingly patient. I have very rarely seen or experienced 'road rage' although admit to the odd outburst myself over the decades. And while I haven't driven a four-wheeled vehicle in today's Vietnam, I have certainly been a passenger in many and again amazed at how calm & patient my drivers are and keep their cool. Despite his many years in Vietnam, I reckon the author of the VnExpress piece still hasn't adjusted to a very different driving culture. (Sorry, Mark Ashwill!)
Yes, there would be a great sociological study here. What strikes me most is how seemingly indifferent drivers are with each other in Vietnam. Sure, they know you're there, but never any open acknowledgement of others and totally focused on what they are doing, as one must whilst driving a motorbike. Other drivers come incredibly close, right alongside you, but you're just another object, everyone in their own world. No acknowledgment of others. Nobody looks at each other. They're waiting for the countdown on the traffic lights. And a quick split-second beep from the bike behind if you're not straight off the mark.
But at the same time, a remarkable sharing -- call it teamwork -- to get through traffic's constant obstacles to where you're going. Coming up to a major roundabout, especially in Saigon (HCM City) is always a particularly fascinating exercise as you seek out partners or take the initiative yourself to form a string of motorbikes in front of oncoming traffic and out the other side. The closest analogy is in sport, like a line-out in rugby or blockers in American football. Get up the numbers and then go for it. And, phew! I can't believe I made it again, I tell my wife sitting behind me, as I head up the street. Other times, someone's making a u-turn in the middle of the road ahead, cars too, and everyone just scoots around or stops for a couple seconds. Plus, it's all happening in slow-motion at, what? 20 - 30, maybe 40 kph.
Sure, there are annoyances, particularly anything coming in from the right, trucks included, without even a sidewards glance. But once you realise that's some kind of 'rule,' then you just handle it. I also get annoyed stuck in the middle of a traffic jam of motorbikes, especially at rush hour, and so just avoid going out at that time of day.
Part of any sociological study should also go into what clothes and helmets people wear, true examples of individualism along with the model & make of their motorbike, of course. The old line about how lovely Vietnamese women are has changed into 'no idea' with so many now covered head-to-toe in smocks, masks and gloves against the pollution and sun. And another scene I've spotted repeatedly over the years in the midst of another crowded jam of motorbikes moving off from an intersection, a lovely fashionably-dressed beauty on a top-grade Vespa who just whisks through the chaos without a care in the world. And while they may not be looking at me, I love sitting at a sidewalk cafe and just watching the incredible parade of parents dropping off kids at school, older ones hopping off their Grab hire, office workers male & female, and those many whose motorbikes are their workhorses, everyone on their way to somewhere.
Finally on the issue of enforcement, I'd say most people do now stop at traffic lights -- well, especially in the South -- and it's no longer an optional thing like in my early years back after '95. My impression is that the police can and do hand out traffic tickets, even confiscate improperly registered motorbikes, and I can't say how widespread bribery is at stops. Thankfully, I only ever had one such experience, again early on, and never been stopped by police, even out on the road. The old joke is best time to be out on a motorbike is mid-day 'cause the cops already got all their lunch money but, again, I can't really say how widespread the corruption is today.
Best regards,
Carl Robinson
USOM/USAID 1964-68; Associated Press (AP), Saigon, '68-75
Convenor, Google Group "Vietnam Old Hacks".
Vietnam Old Hacks - Google Groups
Calderwood, NSW, Australia.
From: Thomascfox <thomascfox@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2023 3:23 AM
To: Carl Robinson <robinsoncarl88@gmail.com>
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Sociology of Vietnamese traffic behavior
Thank you, Carl, for your “defense” of Vietnamese motor patterns. Methinks it reveals deep cultural insight. Without overly romanticism, the patterns of traffic reveal art and community — and a special love for the people, all of which you embrace and understand in great abundance.
Tom
From: Hiep Duc <Hiep.Duc@environment.nsw.gov.au>
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2023 5:18 AM
To: Carl Robinson <robinsoncarl88@gmail.com>; Chuck Searcy <chuckusvn@gmail.com>
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Sociology of Vietnamese traffic behavior
Carl probably summarises very neatly the traffic and driver behaviours in Vietnam. I always use motor bike as the main transport in Saigon. Yes, for the uninitiated and people who get used to some form of traffic rules and courteous etiquette in US or Australia, the traffic in Vietnam seems dangerous, aggressive and scary. But to understand the flow, just read Carl observation and experience.
A few additional tips for safe riding: (a) keep straight riding, don’t deviate at high speed as you can confuse the other riders behind in anticipating your riding pattern and never weave around unless it is near the stop light. The key is predictability in behaviour. If you confuse the other riders in anticipating your pattern, accident can happen
(b) If you want to turn right to a street, keep right until you approach it. If you don’t turn right at the traffic light, move to the left so that other riders who want to turn right can have space to turn. This is an important etiquette and people usually stick to it.
The problem of unsustainability transport in major cities in Vietnam is due to poor transport planning and hence terrible traffic congestion and air pollution. City authorities are keenly aware of the problem and try to solve it holistically as in other cities (Taipei had the same problem in the 1990s). Attempt to meet the transport demand of people by gradually expanding the mass transit using bus network (getting better in Hanoi and HCM city), light rail and metro infrastructure building (only rudimentary in HCM and Hanoi). These mass transit projects demand large investment but it is necessary to make cities in Vietnam as ‘liveability’ cities. Currently these small steps in mass transit do not meet adequately the transport demand and hence the people vote with their motorbikes. The Economist Intelligence Unit has produced a ranking of liveable cities in the world based on 6 liveable indices (stability, healthcare, infrastructure including transport, education, culture and environment). Of the 173 cities, HCM city and Hanoi is somewhere in the 120s ranks. Both cities score poorly in infrastructure transport and environment but high score in stability, culture.
For people living in HCM city an Iphone app to assess in real time the air pollution and congestion points is recently available. This app is called HealthyAir and was developed based on a network of low cost sensors installed by a team of researchers at National University of HCM City.
Hiep Nguyen, Ph.D
Principal scientist, Sydney, NSW
From: Diane Fox <dnfox70@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2023 8:15 AM
To: Thomascfox <thomascfox@gmail.com>
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Sociology of Vietnamese traffic behavior
Fun. I’ve heard it said that if you can understand baseball, you can understand the US—and I’ve long felt the same about Vietnamese traffic—though I formed that notion before the prevalence of cars. I think you also have to toss in a bit of seasoning from a French style of driving, but mostly flow and accommodation, continuous rhythm…maybe more of a dance floor than a sports field? Certainly awareness of context, and certainly not the jerky stop and start of some other styles, where you look for an opening then make a dash.
Diane
(Diane Fox, phd anthropology
“Living with Agent Orange
conversations in post-war Viêt Nam”)