Street Names
From: Vsg <vsg-bounces@mailman11.u.washington.edu> On Behalf Of Tuan Hoang
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2021 10:13 AM
Thầy Lương: I for one was glad that you clicked by mistake since I learned a few things from your post.
List: Any ideas on why there were streets with first French names only? Is it fair to assume that they were small and/or short streets?
Tuan Hoang
Pepperdine University
On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 8:59 AM Hy Luong <vanluong@chass.utoronto.ca> wrote:
Dear all,
I have hit the wrong key and sent the email about street names in Saigon by mistake.
My apologies.
Hy
From: Hy Luong [mailto:vanluong@chass.utoronto.ca]
Sent: January 4, 2021 11:44 AM
To: 'Dien Nguyen' <nguyendien519@gmail.com>; 'David Marr' <david.marr@anu.edu.au>
Cc: 'Vietnam Studies Group' <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: [Vsg] Street names
I have checked 2 detailed maps of Saigon, one in 1961 and the other in 1969, with indexes of street names.
1. 1961 map with streets named for:
a. Anti-Chinese leaders: including Hai Bà Trưng, Bà Triệu, Trần Hưng Đạo, Lê Lợi, Nguyễn Huệ, etc.
b. Chinese philosophers: Khổng tử, Lão tử, Mạnh tử, Trang tử,
c. Anti-French figures: including Nguyễn Thiện Thuật, Phan Bội Châu, Đề Thám, Phạm Hồng Thái, Nguyễn Thái Học, Cô Giang, etc.
d. French-era intellectuals in the 19th century: Petrus Ký, Huỳnh Tịnh Của (not Nguyễn Văn Vĩnh or Phạm Quỳnh of the 20th century)
e. French names: besides Pasteur, Calmette, Yersin (medical research), there are also Alexandre de Rhodes, Jean Jacques Rousseau, De Lattre de Tassigny, and also first names like Francois, Hélène, Yves (??)
2. 1969 map: the main change that I notice is the elimination of French names in the second line (starting with Rousseau) on the above (e ) list.
My reading is that Alexandre de Rhodes, Petrus Ký, Huỳnh Tịnh Của were honored for their contribution to the development and spread of modern Vietnamese writing; Pasteur, Calmette, Yersin, Lãn Ông, for their contribution to medical knowledge; and anti-Chinese and anti-French leaders, as a part of Vietnamese nationalist discourse.
Hy Luong
University of Toronto
From: Vsg [mailto:vsg-bounces@mailman11.u.washington.edu] On Behalf Of Dien Nguyen
Sent: August 15, 2020 9:50 AM
To: David Marr <david.marr@anu.edu.au>
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Street names
The Japanese transferred the administration of Hanoi to the Trần Trọng Kim government on 20 July 1945. Dr Trần Văn Lai became Mayor of Hanoi (Đốc lý Hà Nội) from that date until 19 August 1945. He effected the change of street and public park names during his short tenure. He also ordered that colonial statues erected by the French be pulled down, notably those of Jean Dupuis and Paul Bert.
The streets of the Old Town (Phố Cổ) reverted to their original Vietnamese names. The streets named after French colonial personalities were changed into the names of great figures in Vietnamese history and culture.
Dr Trần Duy Hưng became Mayor (Thị trưởng) after 2 September 1945. Many streets retained the names they acquired under Dr Trần Văn Lai but some were given the names of ICP figures such as Trần Phú and Phan Thanh.
During 1947-1954, the best known Mayor of Hanoi (1950-1952) was Thẩm Hoàng Tín, a pharmacist. Trần Phú and Phan Thanh streets were renamed. A few main streets were given new names: Pháp Quốc (France), Anh Quốc (Britain) and Mỹ Quốc (America).
http://nnh.hcmussh.edu.vn/?ArticleId=406ddeab-ac70-490e-85ad-aea174be9935
When I first arrived in Saigon in 1954, practically all the streets had French names. Only a few streets carried the Vietnamese names of loyal servants of the French such as Tổng đốc Phương (Đỗ Hữu Phương) and Đỗ Hữu Vị (Đỗ Hữu Phương's son, an aviator and a captain in the French army who died in France in 1916 in a battle against the Germans). The Ngô Đình Diệm government gave Saigon streets Vietnamese names in 1955. The main streets in central Saigon were changed from Catinat to Tự do, Bonard to Lê Lợi and Charner to Nguyễn Huệ. I am not aware of any street named after Phạm Quỳnh or Nguyễn Văn Vĩnh.
https://hinhanhvietnam.com/doi-chieu-ten-duong-sai-gon-xua-nay/
Nguyễn Điền
Canberra
On Thu, Aug 13, 2020 at 11:36 AM David Marr <david.marr@anu.edu.au> wrote:
The Kham Sai office in Hanoi compiled a list of street name changes in the summer of 1945. After 2 September the DRV started a new round of name changes. Province committees did likewise locally.
I don’t know if the French restored old names as they occupied Hanoi and beyond from the end of 1946.
It would be interesting to compare DRV Hanoi and RVN Saigon street names in the late 1950s. Did Diem give Pham Quynh or Nguyen Van Vinh a street name, for example? Both included Nguyen Thai Hoc, I think.
David Marr
ANU
From: Vsg <vsg-bounces@mailman11.u.washington.edu> On Behalf Of tran_n_a@yahoo.com
Sent: Thursday, 13 August 2020 1:49 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>; Bill Hayton <bill.hayton@bbc.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Street names
Dear list,
Ngô Đình Diệm's government began changing the French street names to Vietnamese street names during his premiership, meaning between July 1954 and October 1955, when the government was still called the State of Vietnam. I don't have the citations on hand, but I recall Vietnamese language newspapers publishing maps with the old and new street names, and many articles describing the destruction of the Battle of Saigon giving both old and new names to aid comprehension. American documents describing the Battle of Saigon continued to use the French language names, however. Although I do not know about the government's intentions or the discourse surrounding the new street names, the larger political context of the time would not have prompted the government to foster anti-Chinese sentiments specifically. Instead, I suspect the intention was to foster a sense of nationalism and independence, and the street naming efforts was a form of ridding South Vietnam of colonial vestiges. This would probably have been part of the larger effort to celebrate national heroes and replace existing toponyms with classical or Vietnamese-sounding names. There were strong anti-PRC sentiments and prejudice against the Chinese minority population, but I don't believe that manifested in the street names.
Cheers,
Nu-Anh Tran
Assistant Professor
UConn
On Wednesday, August 12, 2020, 5:42:30 AM EDT, Bill Hayton <bill.hayton@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
Thanks all! Wonderfully useful.
My question is really about whether street names were changed to memorialise 'anti-China' heroes at specific times and for 'geopolitical' reasons or whether, in the 1940s/50s/60s the names had a life of their own regardless of the state of Vietnam-Chinese relations.
Logan's 'Hanoi Biography of a City' notes that "some names were altered by the non-communist Tran Trong Kim government in 1945, only to be altered again by Ho's regime in the 1950s. Rue Henri Riviere became Pho Ngo Quyen, Boulevard Gambetta became Pho Tran Hung Dao, Boulevard Amiral Courbet became Pho Ly Thai Tho..."
It's not clear from this passage which regime chose Ngo Quyen, Tran Hung Dao & Ly Thai Tho as suitable names for streets. Was it the Kim government, or Ho's?
In the DRV, did more streets get named after 'anti-Chinese' figures during the late 1960s when the VN Politburo became concerned about the spread of PRC influence, for example, or during the rupture in the 1980s?
In Saigon (and the rest of the RVN), were the names chosen deliberately to bolster a sense of 'anti-Chineseness' in the context of PRC support for the DRV or was that immaterial?
All the best, Bill
From: Vsg [vsg-bounces@mailman11.u.washington.edu] on behalf of David Brown [nworbd@gmail.com]
Sent: 11 August 2020 23:00
To: Vietnam Studies Group; Bill Hayton
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Street names
Maps of Hanoi and Saigon prior to the French Departure show all the major streets in Hanoi and Saigon-Cholon to be named for French luminaries, including many colonial administrators and soldiers.
A Saigon-Cholon map dated 1960 shows all the streets renamed except for Pasteur and Drs. Yersin & Calmette. Historical figures predominate (Tran Hung Dao and Le Loi, who chased out the Chinese, the Trung sisters, Phan Dinh Phung, Tran Qui Cap, Nguyen Hue*, Le Loi*, Le Van Duyet* and Phan Thanh Gian*, but not, apparently, Phan Boi Chau.
After 1975, many street names were changed to honor revolutionary heros or events and extirpate reactionaries. Le Van Duyet became Cach Mang Thang Tam (August Revolution), Hong Thap Tu (Red Cross) became Nguyen Thi Minh Khai (Ho's martyred girl friend). Pasteur and Yersin survive.
David Brown
Freelance analyst/writer
Fresno, California
From: Vsg <vsg-bounces@mailman11.u.washington.edu> On Behalf Of Shawn McHale
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2020 1:29 PM
To: Bradley Camp Davis <bcampdavis@gmail.com>
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Street names
It also depended on the city. Saigon had in the colonial period almost all French named streets. Then again, Saigon was relatively small then. In the days of South Vietnam, street names had a pronounced "southern" flavor -- so, Gia Long, Lê Văn Duyệt, and so on. There were a few names of anti-Chinese heroes like Lê Lợi, but of course he was more than just anti Chinese.
In the list you give, some names are obviously of those who defeated the "Chinese" / Han/ etc. But Lý Thái Tổ would be on any list -- he was the founder of a dynasty, founded Hà Nội, and so on. Ngô Quyền defeated a southern Han army, sure, but isn't the more important point that he helped establish a separate country?
I teach at a place called George Washington University, but the place, and Washington, DC, was not named to thumb American noses at the UK. . . . .
Shawn McHale
On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 4:15 PM Bradley Camp Davis <bcampdavis@gmail.com> wrote:
Professor Hayton,
You might check Đặng Phong’s _Thăng Long-Hanoi: The Story in a Single Street_ Hanoi: Knowledge Pub House, 2010. Philippe Papin and Michael Vann have also published on this.
Ma May was once la rue des Pavillons Noirs. Maybe phố giặc Cờ Đen did not have the same ring to it. Incidentally, Trần Văn Giáp once described French colonial street names as mental conditioning.
Brad
Bradley Camp Davis
Eastern Connecticut State University
On Tue, Aug 11, 2020 at 3:51 PM Bill Hayton <bill.hayton@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
Dear all,
Does anyone know when street names in Vietnamese cities honouring national 'anti-Chinese heroes' were introduced? I'm thinking of the A-list that you find in pretty much every city - Ba Trieu, Ly Thai Tho, Ngo Quyen etc...
Were any of them installed under colonialism? Were they changed immediately after the French left or were they changed later as Vietnam-China relations worsened? Were they present in the RVN before they were introduced in the DRV?
Many thanks
Bill Hayton
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Shawn McHale
Associate Professor of History
George Washington University
Washington, DC 20052 USA