Embedded Files
From: Pierre Asselin
Date: Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 10:52 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear All:
Does anyone know at what parallel the Porte was situated? According to French docs, in Geneva in 1954 Paris was emphatic about partition at the Porte d'Annam, or north of there. I just can't for the life of me figure out what parallel that stood at (18th? 19th? 20th?) and there's not a single mention of a parallel number in the docs; it's always "Porte d'Annam."
Thanks & best,
Pierre
Pierre Asselin
Associate Professor of History
Hawai'i Pacific University
1188 Fort St., Suite MP 405
Honolulu, HI 96813
----------
From: Carl Robinson
Date: Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 11:11 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
The Porte d'Annam is located atop the east-west trending Hoanh Son Range which -- coincidentally or not -- is on the 18th parallel. (Fyi, the old DMZ was on the 17th and when the US instituted its bombing halt over North Vietnam in late 1968, it excluded what it called the "panhandle" and delineated by the 19th parallel just north of Vinh.) I do not believe the Geneva Agreement of 1954 (not Paris) referred to the Porte d'Annam at all, but the actual line of partition was the Ben Hai River located along the 17th parallel.
I have visited the Porte d'Annam on a couple occasions over the years but would seriously question if its location had anything to do with its location on that particular parallel. While not as prominent as the Hai Van Pass between Hue and Danang, the pass over the Hoanh Son was a natural barrier and where the Nguyen Dynasty placed the tower in the early 1800's along with citadels in a string of coastal cities heading north from Hue. In earlier history, the Ngang Pass and Gianh River to its south was the boundary between the Trinh & Nguyen during the 200-year partition of Vietnam in the latter part of the Le Dynasty.
Best regards,
Carl Robinson
Former Vietnam War Correspondent
Brisbane, Australia.
----------
From: Mike High
Date: Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 6:58 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
I think of the Hoanh Son range as one of the most significant dividing-points in Vietnamese history, not just in the Nguyen-Trinh era, but for centuries earlier. It is traditionally considered the barrier between the Dai Viet and the Cham polities, though over the centuries the Dai Viet would sometimes lay claim to regions to the south (famously O and Ly provinces) and the Cham would try to assert control of Nghe-Tinh as late as the 1370s. In his writings on “Le Vieux An-Tinh,” Hippolyte le Breton remarks on the remains of the “Wall of Lam Ap” running across the spine of the mountain, though it is entirely unclear when the wall was built and by whom. (I’ve visited the old Nguyen border-gate on a couple of occasions, but haven’t taken the time to look for the Luy Lam Ap.)
The French should have known that the DRVN representatives would never have accepted a line there (or north of there), so it might have been a starting-point that they expected to compromise. According to Bui Tin’s book, “Following Ho Chi Minh,” the DRVN leadership was hoping for a dividing line at the Ca Pass, another traditional dividing line, but much further south than even the DMZ, and were embittered that the USSR and PRC did not back them up on this.
:: Mike High
Great Falls, Virginia
----------
From: Tai, Hue-Tam
Date: Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 10:23 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Following on Mike's post, here is a link to a site that has useful information about Deo Ngang/Porte d'Annam
http://www.vietgle.vn/trithucviet/detail.aspx?key=%C4%91%C3%A8o+Ngang&type=A0
Hue-Tam Ho Tai
Kenneth T. Young Professor
of Sino-Vietnamese History
----------
From: Carl Robinson <robinsoncarl88@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 2:35 PM
To: Le Thanh <bantinphuongdong@yahoo.com>, Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Fascinating stuff, Mike. Here are a couple scanned pictures I took of the Porte D'Annam (Gate of Annam) back in September 2003. First is from the steps leading up from the roadway on the northern side of the Ngang Pass. Second is a more close-up shot from its southern side.
At the time, we really had to look hard to find the Gate -- which is clearly in the same Nguyen Dynasty style as all the gates & citadels from Hue northwards and dating from the early 19th Century. Just finding that path upwards, for one, but even at the summit, there was barely a trail over to the highway. I re-visited a month or so later and explored around a bit more and there are what appear to be remnants of a wall on both sides of the actual Gate. But the entire area was seriously overgrown with brush and pine trees -- and almost totally neglected.
I don't know if the authorities have changed their attitude about the Gate in the years since -- and I do owe the place another visit. At the same time, what was left of the Nguyen-era Citadel in Vinh 100 kms further north was also seriously neglected. (Two gates had survived heavy US bombing of the city as had some sections of its moat.) But on my more recent trips back to that city, both gates have been magnificently refurbished and even cordoned off. The same has happened with a section of the citadel in Dong Hoi. Given its history, the Gate and its environs would certainly make a fascinating archaeological dig, that's for sure. (Just keep those damn replica guys who are rebuilding Hue's Forbidden City out of the way!)
Best regards,
Carl Robinson
----------
From: Mike High
Date: 2011/7/15
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>, Le Thanh
Carl,
Based on your photos, it looks like there has been some modest reconstruction work since 2003. I don’t want to overwhelm anyone’s Inbox, so I’ve posted low-res versions of my most recent photos for discretionary viewing at:
http://home.earthlink.net/~excursions/DeoNgang-steps-2010.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~excursions/DeoNgang-Gate-2010.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~excursions/DeoNgang-2010.jpg
I agree that the Hoanh Son gate (and Luy Lam Ap) deserves more attention—especially in comparison with the recent folderol about the wall of Quang Ngai, which is also significant and interesting, but isn’t as central to Vietnamese history as Hoanh Son.
As I think I mentioned a while back, I suspect that the authorities might be reluctant to commemorate this dividing line, and the famous “Wall of Dong Hoi,” because they might be interpreted as setting a precedent for the “partition” of 1954-55. (When I first went looking for the wall of Dong Hoi a few years back, no one I asked in the city seemed to know about it.) On the other hand, it may just be overlooked, as is (amazingly) the site of the great battles on the Bach Dang river in Quang Ninh province.
Best,
:: Mike High
Great Falls, VA
USA
----------
From: Carl Robinson
Date: Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 4:11 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Thanks, Mike. They pulled the bushes growing out of the top of the Gate and must've cleaned up around it a bit. Plus, it looks like that tunnel under the pass in complete, judging by the third of the pictures showing the northward view from the Gate.
By the way, I was in Dong Hoi only last year and there is a historical marker where that little-known wall begins. (In fact, the town's looking really great these days.) Not sure about government "partition policy" is but they've certainly made a circus out of the Ben Hai River with its replica bridge & flag towers etc. As for Bach Dang, there is an early 2000's Tran Hung Dao temple near the battle site.
Problem with Vietnamese history -- and its locales -- is that it's people like us who are more interested -- and knowledgeable -- than many of them are ! Plus, youngsters tend to equate history with propaganda and thus a major turnoff.
Best,
Carl
----------
From: Tai, Hue-Tam
Date: 2011/7/15
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Mike:
How did you ask about the Wall of Dong Hoi? Did you ask about Luy Thay or Luy Truong Duc in Dong Hoi?
----------
From: Mike High
Date: 2011/7/15
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
That was back in 2007 and 2008, when all I had were those two names, and didn’t have any clue about how they might differ. (Still not sure I do.) Anyway, I employed the full repertoire, including the name of Dao Duy Tu, taking care to stress that this had nothing to do with the Nguyen-era citadel. (My fishing expeditions tend to be clumsy but determined.)
In this case, I did end up finding the sign that Carl mentions, in front of a hillock that was evidently once a part of the system:
http://home.earthlink.net/~excursions/DongHoi-LuyDaoDuyTu.jpg
I also came across a nice map circa 1690 that shows the wall, in Li Tana’s collection of Nguyen documents.
The sign calls this rampart “Luy Dao Duy Tu.” Is that synonymous with “Luy Thay,” or does “Luy Thay” also refer to the “Luy Truong Duc”? I have read somewhere that “Truong Duc” is another name for the “Song Gianh”--can anyone confirm this?
----------
From: Le Thanh
Date: Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 11:43 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
I totally agree with Carl about the way Vietnamese people look at his-story directed by communist historians. But I found that the history has its own way to enter the memory of people, through local memory or religious ritual. I had no idea of the Gate in 2002 (of course, I'm a Vietnamese, he he) but saw it on the top of the mount from far away. Therefore I've stopped at a fuel station (I've travelled on motorbike) to ask the local staff. He said it's 'Hoanh Son shrine'. He was right because I've found the shrine next to the gate - on attached photo, full of recently burnt incense.
I've stoped at the car park where local children were waiting for coaches to sell some foods and attempted to walk up but they told me about another way by bike and car to the 'Gate of the Sky' - Co^?ng Tro+`i (this type of name is very popular in Northern Vietnam).
Frankly I'm still not convinced that the Gate is an old site or in its original form. The same with the gate on the Hai Van Pass where the French built a military site around and on it.
----------
From: Tai, Hue-Tam
Date: Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 4:14 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
I asked because Vietnamese would not call it the wall of Dong Hoi but Luy Thay (Thay referring to Dao Duy Tu) or Luy Truong Duc. Local people often have different names for local sites as well.
As for the Porte d'Annam/Deo Ngang it has been the subject of several poems, the best known by Ba Huyen Thanh Quan in the mid-19th century.
Hue-Tam Ho Tai
----------
From: Tai, Hue-Tam
Date: Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 9:07 AM
To: Le Thanh <bantinphuongdong@yahoo.com>, Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
It depends what we mean by history. To be sure, most of what Vietnamese tell about history might not pass muster with professional historians, but Vietnamese, down to the youngest and poorest, seem to be very knowledgeable about the "history" of their locality. I put history in quotation marks because much of what they know is myth, i.e. the story of Ong Giong, or the pseudo history of Ba Chua Kho.
I well remember trudging up the steps to Hoa Lu followed all the way by a 12 year old girl attempting to sell us joss sticks and explaining to Ben Wilkinson (then still a Harvard student) about Vietnamese history from the Hung kings to Dinh Tien Hoang, Le Dai Hanh and his sons. I don't know how many American 12 year olds would be so knowledgeable. We have a presidential candidate who did not know that the "shot heard around the world" was fired in MA and not New Hampshire, who thought that John Quincy Adams was one of the Founding Fathers, etc...
Whether or not local monuments are restored, together with their historical context, depends largely on local pride and resources. In Hue, the Nguyen dynasty is not portrayed as the villainous, treasonous, oppressive dynasty that it is described as in museums of history that I have visited in other cities. This divergence is due even more to local pride than the lure of tourist dollars. The same local pride can be found in Qui Nhon, but about the Tay Son, and in particular about Nguyen Nhac rather than his better-known brother Nguyen Hue.
----------
From: Minh Tran
Date: Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 5:11 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Speaking of knowledgable youth, many on this tread may have witnessed the same experience. For every place I visited in Hue, there seems to be a teenage expert in the Nguyen dynasty. Although I can only barely remember what they told me, I was impressed that they wouldn't stop talking about the creation of this or that, about this king or that king. Every kid seems to be a historian in their own rights.
Minh Huynh Tran
PhD Student
University of the West
----------
From: Carl Robinson
Date: Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 6:29 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Yes, I was making a rather general statement there about the lack of general knowledge about history and a good point has been made about local knowledge. That 12-year at Hoa Lu needs a scholarship to the University of Hanoi, I reckon. Running small tours to Vietnam, I've been generally quite annoyed with the lack of historical knowledge by many of our guides. They've memorised the politically-correct syllabus and obtained their tour guide certificate -- and any deviation from which could cost them their job. (I often end up giving them a whole new history lesson!) But it is amazing to find the odd local guide, one particular instance in Hue, who'd gone out and not only learned to read "nom" but had built up an incredibly detailed knowledge on the Nguyens and the history of the region.
Best,
Carl
PS: This has been a fascinating discussion.
Page updated
Report abuse