History of chợ during subsidy period
From: Small, Ivan (Anthropology) <ivansmall@ccsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2022 6:47 PM
To: Christoph Giebel <giebel@uw.edu>; Hue-Tam Tai <huetamtai@gmail.com>
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] History of chợ during subsidy period
This is an interesting discussion.
It seems there are now two threads on the same topic, but if it has not yet been mentioned Ken MacLean wrote an article on viewer responses to the subsidy era exhibition at the Museum of Ethnology:
-MacLean, Ken. 2008. “The Rehabilitation of an Uncomfortable Past: Remembering the Everyday in Vietnam during the Subsidy Period (1975-1986)”, History and Anthropology 19(3): 281-303.
Cheers,
Ivan
From: Christoph Giebel <giebel@uw.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2022 5:15 PM
To: Hue-Tam Tai <huetamtai@gmail.com>
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] History of chợ during subsidy period
I was a student in Hà Nội during 1986-87, from the last months of the Stalinist system, through the VI. VCP Congress, to the initial, exciting months of đổi mới, but before there was any real improvements in the bao cấp situation. I can't really speak to markets, but people were generally on vouchers. Besides the few state hotels, there were a handful of state restaurants in the entire city (much, much smaller then and much closer to "old Hà Nội" than to the metropolis post-2000), some state-run cafés, bia hơi and kem places, but also a good number of private coffee/phở/bún chả "shops." The occasional bánh mì stand. How these private places operated and got their supplies I have no idea. Most everyone was rail thin. Everything was in short supply, and I had donated prescription glasses, tools like drill bits, etc. sent from West Germany to give to acquaintances (to the extent it wouldn't arouse suspicion). Off hours, one of my beloved professors waited with a repair kit at the side of the road for the next bicycle tire to pop. Western embassies imported all their food, incl. fresh eggs and such basics, from Bangkok. The old colonial-era department store downtown was full of salespersons and pretty empty of wares; I once happily snagged a few wooden hangers for my wardrobe there. I left after the end of the term with lots of books, mementos and my camera, but gave practically all of my other belongings away: writing utensils, cassette player, lamp, bathroom supplies, most of my clothes, etc. My bicycle was used, I believe, to "buy" a friend a coveted laborer position in East Germany.
Unlike Hue Tam's experience in 1993, when I returned in 1992 for research, the supply and food situation had vastly improved from 1987, but of course still far different from turn-of-the-millenium Hà Nội.
********************
Christoph Giebel, PhD (he), Assoc. Professor, International Studies and History
Director of Graduate Studies, S.E. Asia Center, Jackson School of Int’l. Studies
University of Washington, Seattle, WA 98195-3650, USA, < giebel@uw.edu >
From: Hiep Duc <Hiep.Duc@environment.nsw.gov.au>
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2022 2:29 AM
To: Cristina Nualart <cnualart@ucm.es>; vsg@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Vsg Digest, Vol 521, Issue 3
Cộng Cà phê coffee houses in Hanoi or Saigon have a number of photos, mementos, house utensils, furnitures… display in a recreated ambience of life in the subsidy period (thời bao cấp). It is very relaxing experience to have a cup of coffee sitting on the chair and table of the past looking at an array of photos on the wall depicting life in the bao cấp period.
Hiep
Climate Change and Atmospheric Science department
NSW, Sydney, Australia
From: Cristina Nualart <cnualart@ucm.es>
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2022 1:50 AM
To: vsg@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Vsg Digest, Vol 521, Issue 3
Dear Emma and Margaret,
Emma, I assume that your searches already lead you to find the following article:
Ken MacLean, "The Rehabilitation of an Uncomfortable Past: Everyday Life in Vietnam during the Subsidy Period (1975–1986)", History and Anthropology, Vol. 19, No. 3, September 2008, pp. 281–303.
Dear Margaret, I would be interested in receiving your article on said exhibition, if you would be so kind to share. My interest lies in museum displays, and I regret that I had not seen your research on this exhibition. Thank you in advance,
Cristina Nualart
From: Emma Willoughby <elwillou@umich.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, March 8, 2022 10:30 PM
To: Margaret B. Bodemer <mbodemer@calpoly.edu>
Cc: vsg@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Vsg Digest, Vol 521, Issue 2
Thank you all so much. I have read Ann Marie’s book but yes am missing the history. I’m wondering if during the subsidy period the large markets like Dong Xuan, just sat empty or only catered to voucher holders. Reading around a bit looks like a lot of the smaller markets were only established in the 1990s. (Doesn’t include all the store holders not in a covered market)
From: Hue-Tam Tai <huetamtai@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 8, 2022 1:33 PM
To: frank.proschan@yahoo.com
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] History of chợ during subsidy period
Many thanks, Frank. Very interesting about the warehouse on Tong Dan street. I am still wondering about the origin and circulation of the poem. Did it apply to the Subsidy period? By the 1990s, i.e. post Doi Moi, were coupons still required? When I visited Hanoi in 1993 for an extremely brief time, there were no goods to be seen. Bui Xuan Phai painted streets empty of all life. Two years later, there were vendors in many streets frequented by tourists. By 1996 there was a Baskin Robbins on Ngo Quyen Street. The rapid pace of change makes it hard to project back into the past. I'd be interested to hear from people who lived through the subsidy period in Hanoi.
Alas, covid-19 has prevented me from traveling to Vietnam for the last two years.
Hue Tam Ho Tai
Harvard University emerita
From: frank.proschan@yahoo.com <frank.proschan@yahoo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 8, 2022 1:06 PM
To: 'Hue-Tam Tai' <huetamtai@gmail.com>; 'Dien Nguyen' <nguyendien519@gmail.com>
Cc: 'Vietnam Studies Group' <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] History of chợ during subsidy period
Dear Tam Tai and Dien,
As I understand, there was a large warehouse on Tong Dan that offered imported luxury goods to a select clientele. (Similar to the shop whose name escapes me that required a foreign passport or white skin for entry, but in this case accessible to certain Vietnamese.) When I regularly stayed in a modest guesthouse there (17 Tong Dan) in the early 1990s, many were the Vietnamese colleagues who made an irreverent remark about the famous warehouse. They may have quoted the poem Dien cites, although I didn’t make careful notes of their irreverence.
Best,
Frank Proschan
Independent
From: Margaret B. Bodemer <mbodemer@calpoly.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, March 8, 2022 1:01 PM
To: Hue-Tam Tai <huetamtai@gmail.com>
Cc: vsg@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Vsg Digest, Vol 521, Issue 2
As Hue-Tam mentioned, these objects bought with coupons during the BC era elicited many emotions from viewers of the exhibit.
Ann Marie Leshkowich's work with traders in Ben Thanh market is comes to mind, although I don't recall how much historical backstory is provided there. Would be great to stroll into Cho Hom or one of the markets around today and ask around a bit, how long stall-vendors have been there, etc. I can't recall much of the history around the markets.
IN The Mountains Sing the novel by Nguyen Phan Que Mai, the main character's grandmother becomes a 'black marketeer' during this period, buying and selling objects, in order to survive. For this she is shunned by her son who is an official. Similar story in some senses to what Hue-Tam was describing.
Margaret Barnhill Bodemer, Ph.D.
Pronouns: she/her/hers (Why pronouns matter)
Lecturer, History Department and Asian Studies Minor
Vietnamese Language and Culture Roundtable
Cal Poly Global Program in Hanoi
California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
From: Hue-Tam Tai <huetamtai@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 8, 2022 12:34 PM
To: Margaret B. Bodemer <mbodemer@calpoly.edu>
Cc: vsg@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Vsg Digest, Vol 521, Issue 2
Following on Margaret's post, the museum of Ethnology also produced at least two videos together with the exhibition. Among the artifacts displayed at the exhibition was a bar of soap (Camay) and one egg. The bar of soap was too precious to use, so it was put in the shirt pocket for its scent. The egg was supposed to be an object of longing. To repair a bicycle, one needed a permit to purchase the necessary items, then a permit for the actual repair and a receipt for the repair. The three documents were exhibited near a bicycle whose pristine condition was due to having been stored in a trunk to prevent any kind of damage. None of this suggests the functioning of markets. The only one i heard of was the black market in coupons as higher ranking officials could offload their extra allowances.
Hue Tam Ho Tai
Harvard University emerita
From: Margaret B. Bodemer <mbodemer@calpoly.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, March 8, 2022 12:15 PM
To: vsg@u.washington.edu; elwillou@umich.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Vsg Digest, Vol 521, Issue 2
This doesn't entirely answer your question, Emma, but the Vietnam Museum of Ethnology created an exhibit around the Subsidy era in 2006-7. Among the items collected were many coupon books. I can send you my article on the exhibit if you like.
Margaret Barnhill Bodemer, Ph.D.
Pronouns: she/her/hers (Why pronouns matter)
Lecturer, History Department and Asian Studies Minor
Vietnamese Language and Culture Roundtable
Cal Poly Global Program in Hanoi
California Polytechnic State University, San Luis Obispo
From: Hue-Tam Tai <huetamtai@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, March 7, 2022 9:21 PM
To: Dien Nguyen <nguyendien519@gmail.com>
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] History of chợ during subsidy period
It's a matter of perspective. For you and me, it would be irreverent. But those who were compared to kings and mandarins might accuse the author and disseminators of the poem of treason. People were thrown in jail for less. Imagine the guessing game of Who is the king? What are the names of the mandarins?.
But this is a tangential issue.
From what I know, there was no functioning market. There were stores where one could procure goods by using coupons (unless they ran out before one had got to the head of very long queues). There was a lively black market in these all important coupons. In the Subsidy exhibition, there was a poster outlining the number of coupons each civil servant and Party member was entitled to. One former janitor at a ministry told me that his family was able to eat a piece of lard once a month as long as it was still available when he got to the head of the queue. Another person told me he sent his children to start queueing at 4am and he would relieve them at 7am when they went to school. And, as the former water hawker explained, no unsanctioned transaction was allowed.
From: Dien Nguyen <nguyendien519@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, March 7, 2022 7:16 PM
To: Hue-Tam Tai <huetamtai@gmail.com>
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] History of chợ during subsidy period
Treasonous ? NO
Irreverent and calling a spade a spade? YES
Nguyễn Điền
Canberra
From: Hue-Tam Tai <huetamtai@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, March 7, 2022 7:01 PM
To: Dien Nguyen <nguyendien519@gmail.com>
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] History of chợ during subsidy period
Well, if vua quan refers to members of the VCP, it would be treasonous. This is why I suspect that the poem, with its matter of fact description of the various markets, probably did not originate in the Subsidy period.
Hue Tam Ho Tai
Harvard University emerita
From: Dien Nguyen <nguyendien519@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, March 7, 2022 6:52 PM
To: Hue-Tam Tai <huetamtai@gmail.com>
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] History of chợ during subsidy period
Dear Chị Huệ Tâm,
I am not sure about the dates of those verses describing the levels of chợ in Hà Nội. However, I assume they originated in Hanoi in the late 1970s as Thời bao cấp covered the period 1975-86.
In that period, vua quan can only mean the very top officials of the Party-State (Đảng- Nhà nước).
I find the following links quite detailed and instructive:
http://hm2003c.blogspot.com/2013/01/nam-moi-nho-ve-mot-thoi-gian-kho.html
https://onggiaolang.com/via-he-la-cua-nhan-dan-anh-hung/
Nguyễn Điền
Canberra
From: Hue-Tam Tai <huetamtai@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, March 7, 2022 5:52 PM
To: Dien Nguyen <nguyendien519@gmail.com>
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] History of chợ during subsidy period
Do we know the dates of the poem quoted by anh Dienz? I am suspicious about the reference to *"king and mandarins".It could not possibly refer to high members of the Communist Party!.
I interviewed a woman who said that during the subsidy period, she and her mother hawked water, taking pain to avoid tax collectors who would confiscate their bamboo pole and the cans that were their sole means of livelihood.
not being civil servants, they had no access to the coupons that could be used to obtain everything from salt, rice, cloth, etc...
Hue Tam Ho Tai
Harvard University emerita
From: Dien Nguyen <nguyendien519@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, March 7, 2022 5:28 PM
To: elwillou@umich.edu
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] History of chợ during subsidy period
Dear Emma,
I think chợ continued to exist in the DRV not only during thời bao cấp but also right from October 1954 when the DRV government took over Hanoi.
The following verses described the different levels of chợ in Hà Nội before đổi mới:
"Tông Đản là chợ vua quan
Nhà Thờ là chợ trung gian nịnh thần
Đồng Xuân là chợ thương nhân
Vỉa hè là chợ nhân dân anh hùng"
(Tông Đản Street is the market for the king and high mandarins,
Nhà Thờ Street is the market for middle-rank flatterers,
Đồng Xuân is the market for traders,
Sidewalks are the markets for our heroic people.)
Nguyễn Điền
Independent
Canberra
From: Emma Willoughby <elwillou@umich.edu>
Sent: Sunday, March 6, 2022 8:02 PM
To: vsg@u.washington.edu
Subject: [Vsg] History of chợ during subsidy period
Hello VSG,
I am looking for more context about food markets (chợ) before/during/after the subsidy period (1975-1986). Were vouchers used at some official/ covered markets or only at something different like a state-run shop? I'm trying to answer, did the large covered markets we see today, survive the subsidy period or are they developments along with Doi Moi? Were they open during the subsidy period? I am looking for anything written about this history or if you know any tidbit, please feel free to share.
Thank you!
Emma
--
Emma Willoughby, MSc (she her)
PhD candidate, c. Political Science
Department of Health Management and Policy
University of Michigan School of Public Health
https://sph.umich.edu/hmp/phdstudents/elwillou.html