Embedded Files
From: Dan Duffy
Date: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 1:07 PM
Hi all, the following memo is from a non-Vietnamese speaking
English-language book indexer, about how to index Vietnamese names in an
English-language book. I have given him half an hour of review, chiefly
telling him about pen names, revolutionary names and reign names, and
consulting John C. Schafer's book to see how NIU's indexer handled such
issues.
I don't have time to sit down and wrap my head around this issue. I
offered to post the memo here and pass along any comments.
I have not found an archived discussion by VSG of this topic, which seems
unlikely. If I have missed it, or the man is re-inventing the wheel some
other way (is there a UC Press or U HI Press memo?), please let me know.
Otherwise, specific comments will be much appreciated.
The indexer's memo (NOT by DD)
I am currently copyediting a manuscript that contains a fair number of
references to books written by Vietnamese and Vietnamese American authors.
Because the manuscript is nonfiction, the final book will contain a
bibliography and an index. Therefore, it’s important that I understand
Vietnamese and Vietnamese American names and treat them correctly.
Based on my research so far, I’ve concluded that there are two main
categories of such names. They are (1) traditional Vietnamese names and
(2) Westernized Vietnamese names. Within both of these categories there
are subdivisions.
Traditional Names
Three-Element Names
Most Vietnamese names consist of three elements: family name–middle
name–given name. Examples include:
- Truong Nhu Tang
- Nguyen Thi Dinh
- Le Minh Khue
In running text, it is standard practice to use the entire name:
- Truong Nhu Tang’s A Vietcong Memoir
- No Other Road to Take, by Nguyen Thi Dinh
- Le Minh Khue’s The Stars, the Earth, the River
When the person is referred to subsequently (which is rare in this
particular manuscript), only the first name is used. (As I understand it,
this is because there are relatively few family names in Vietnamese, and
thus a reference to “Nguyen,” “Tran,” or “Le,” for example, could prove
confusing to the reader.) Accordingly, Huynh Sanh Thong, if referred to
later in the same paragraph or in a nearby paragraph, would be identified
as “Thong.”
(A variation on this theme is that certain names “acquire their own
rules,” as Dan Duffy, editor of the Viet Nam Literature Project Web site,
puts it. For example, the historical figure Ho Chi Minh is never “Minh”
but always “Ho,” often with an honorific.)
For the alphabetical listing of authors in the bibliography, I am thinking
that I should follow the style that is used by the Library of Congress in
its cataloging-in-publication data, which is to set off the family name by
adding a comma directly after it. Please note that the middle name and the
first name are not inverted in this system.
- Truong, Nhu Tang. A Vietcong Memoir: An Inside Account of the Vietnam
War and Its Aftermath. New York: Vintage, 1985. Print.
- Nguyen, Thi Dinh. No Other Road to Take. Ithaca: Cornell UP, 1976. Print.
- Le, Minh Khue. The Stars, the Earth, the River. Trans. Bac Hoai Tran and
Dana Sachs. Willimantic: Curbstone, 1997. Print.
Two-Element Names
There are some Vietnamese names that consist of two elements only: family
name and given name. Bui Diem, Bui Tin, and Nguyen Du are examples. In the
bibliography and in the index, they would appear as:
- Bui, Diem
- Bui, Tin
- Nguyen, Du
However, there are some writers with two-element names whose names do not
follow the usual format. Instead, their names form a single unit—their
names are considered to be pen names. Nhat Linh, Bao Ninh, and Xuan Phuong
are three examples. In the bibliography, there would be no comma, and they
would appear this way:
- Nhat Linh. “The Dream of Tu Lam.” Viet Nam Literature Project. Viet Nam
Lit. Project, 2005. Web. 22 June 2009.
- Bao Ninh. The Sorrow of War: A Novel of North Vietnam. 1991. Trans. Phan
Thanh Hao. New York: Riverhead, 1993. Print.
- Xuan Phuong and Danièle Mazingarbe. Ao Dai: My War, My Country, My
Vietnam. Great Neck: Emquad. Int., 2004. Print.
In the index, they would appear as follows:
- Nhat Linh (under “N”)
- Bao Ninh (under “B”)
- Xuan Phuong (under “X”)
The best source for determining whether an author with a two-element name
has a traditional name or a pen name is, as far as I can tell, the Library
of Congress Web site.
Westernized Names
There are, I believe, three types of Westernized Vietnamese names: (1)
names that consist of two or more Vietnamese names that are presented in
the Western style of first name first–last name last, (2) names with a
Vietnamese given name and a Western family name, and (3) names with a
Western given name and a Vietnamese family name. Here are some examples.
(1) Vietnamese names, Western style
- Kien Nguyen
- Nhung Tuyet Tran
- Van Huy Nguyen
- Linh Dinh
(2) Vietnamese given name, Western family name
- Le Ly Hayslip
- Duong Van Mai Elliott
(3) Western given name, Vietnamese family name
- Andrew Lam
- Barbara Tran
- Monique T. D. Truong
- Jade Ngoc Quang Huynh
Each of these names would appear in the bibliography and in the index with
the last name first, followed by a comma.
- Nguyen, Kien
- Tran, Nhung Tuyet
- Nguyen, Van Huy
- Dinh, Linh
- Hayslip, Le Ly
- Elliott, Duong Van Mai
- Lam, Andrew
- Tran, Barbara
- Truong, Monique T. D.
- Huynh, Jade Ngoc Quang
Conclusion
I have spent quite a lot of time on the Internet researching these names.
I’ve also been in direct contact with some of the authors themselves by
e-mail, and I’ve gotten very helpful advice from Dan Duffy of the Viet Nam
Literature Project Web site. There’s no question, even among the experts,
that this is a complicated subject.
As stated above, I think I should follow the Library of Congress in
determining alphabetical order of authors’ names for the bibliography and
the index. For a while I wondered whether I should make Vietnamese names
conform to the standard bibliographic format of last name, then first
name, then middle name, but I now see that last name, middle name, first
name is more accurate in the field and more respectful of Vietnamese
culture.
The only question I have at this time is whether I will need to add
cross-references in the index. For example, if readers want to look up
Truong Nhu Tang in the index, are they likely to look under “Tang” . . .
and then give up when they don’t find an entry? Should we add a
cross-reference for all names that fall under the heading of “Traditional
Names,” as described above? If so, the format should probably be:
- Tang, Truong Nhu, see Truong, Nhu Tang
- Diem, Bui, see Bui, Diem
- Linh, Nhat, see Nhat Linh
This is not an ideal solution, because “Linh, Nhat,” for example,
suggests, by its very presence, that his name can be treated as if it
consisted of two separate elements when, in fact, it doesn’t. But the
entry’s ability to steer the reader in the right direction would be, I
think, more significant than its inherent inaccuracy.
Meanwhile, Vietnamese names that have been Westernized in style will
already appear in the index as Western readers will expect them (last name
followed by a comma) and thus will not require cross-referencing.
THE ABOVE MEMO IS *NOT* BY DAN DUFFY
Dan Duffy
Editor, Viet Nam Literature Project
Chair, Books & Authors: Viet Nam, Inc.
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From: Stephen Denney
Date: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 1:56 PM
I think when the Vietnamese name of the author is not westernized, as in Truong Nhu Tang, then in the bibliography it should be listed as Truong Nhu Tang, not Truong, Nhu Tang. The reason libraries uses the comma in their catalog, as I understand, is cataloged names which are not pen names have to follow a certain pattern, with a comma separating the family name. But for a published bibliography I don't think the same rule would apply.
As to westernized names, such as Andrew Lam, listing the name as Lam, Andrew would be appropriate for the bibliography, as that would be the pattern with other westernized names.
I could be wrong, but that is my opinion based on cataloging books.
Steve Denney
library assistant, UC Berkeley
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From: Le Dong Phuong
Date: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 5:00 PM
In my works (English language of course) I have
- full Vietnamese names in the text (ie. Nguyen Van Binh has pointed
out...); or
- Vietnamese given name for quotations/refrences (Binh 1997)
- Full vietnamese names in the reference listing (Nguyen Van Binh (1998) but
sorted by the given name (Binh instead of Nguyen) - this is a little bit
tricky since you have to modified your biliographic software to display
full, unabreviated names)
This issue will be faced by many Asian languages, not just Vietnamese. Ir
depends on how the native speakers accept the westernized approaches in
using family names.
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From: Rob Hurle
Date: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 5:48 PM
In my writing I also use this system described by Le Dong Phuong. I
use Endnote and have had to modify the standard output, but that is
easy to do. Sorting the bibliography by author is done on the last
name, which is the family name for European names but the given name
for Vietnamese so we can use both types of name in the same
bibliography if this scheme is followed. Within Vietnam, in my
experience, lists of names are sometimes ordered on the given name and
more rarely on the family name.
Rob Hurle
-----------------------------
Rob Hurle
ANU, College of Asia and the Pacific
School of Culture, History and Language
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From: Adam Fforde
Date: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 6:03 PM
The problem I have is differentiating the middle name and the given name, not least when some Vietnamese in effect hyphenate and so, for example, Nguyen thi Nhung calls herself Nhung, but Nguyen Lan Huong calls herself Lan-Huong. Or would Ms Lan-Huong tend to be Nguyen thi Lan Huong?
And, if we just sort on given names, paying no attention to the middle name, then Nguyen Dinh Anh would come before Nguyen An Dinh, which is not how a standard list of those required to turn up for office cleaning would be sorted.
Ho hum. Is this worse than trying to understand use of kin terms in non-kin contexts?
Adam
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From: Adam Fforde
Date: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 6:24 PM
My second example is muddled, but the point stands, I think. Sorry.
Adam
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From: Stephen Denney
Date: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 6:35 PM
In the library cataloging system, Vietnamese names are normally sorted by family name first, followed by middle name then individual name. For example, in our literature section, works by Nguyen Huu Cuong come after works by Nguyen Hong Sinh.
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From: dan hoang
Date: Tue, Sep 29, 2009 at 7:03 PM
Our names in Vietnam are sorted by given names and I (and for most of us) cannot recognize the Vietnamese authors when in reference of books or articles they are showned by family names. In case we have the same given name, the middle and family name will be used. For ex: we will have order for a name started by L: Lan & Lieu (by anphabet)
1) Do Thi Lan
2) Nguyen Thi Phuong Lan
3) Tran Thi Phuong Lan
4) Duong Thi Hoa Lieu
5) Pham Thi Hong Lieu
6) Tran Thi Lieu
etc
I don't think Vietnamese names must follow Western way when are used in reference or in other cases.
Lieu
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From: Hai Le
Date: Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 1:28 AM
Hi all
There is also a problem between Vietnamese and Viet Kieu. Some overseas Vietnamese prefer their name written as Thien Do, Andrew Lam instead of ĐôŢ Thięňn, Lâm Quang DuŢng Andrew...
And the issue with the name written on the book as well, like I always have problem with Luong Van Hy and Hy Van Luong when using the Internet search or giving this name to others for their own search.
Hai.
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From: Hue-Tam Ho Tai
Date: Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 3:49 AM
Setting aside the issue of names used by Viet Kieu, I think it is best to respect the sequence of Vietnamese names instead of trying to force them into some sort of uniform format. Even Vietnamese might have trouble figuring out how to cope, let alone non-Vietnamese.
We can be sure that "van" and "thi" are middle names. so we might be able to list Nguyen van Thieu as Nguyen, Thieu van. But what about Pham Va^n Anh ( a woman's name) if it appears without the diacritics? I would say that Van Anh is a given name and thus, this person should be listed as Pham, Van Anh. Or better as Pham Van Anh. Ditto for Nguyen Khoa Van (Hai Trieu). If he were indexed as Nguyen, Khoa Van, how would one figure out that he was not Nguyen van Khoa?
There is also the issue of double-barrelled names without hypens to indicate that two surnames have been combined. I was interviewed by a young man whose full name is Le Tran The Phuong. How should it be indexed? By the way, like many authors, he does not use his full name but writes as The Phuong. His name should definitely not be indexed as The, Phuong.
The number of Vietnamese authors using pseudonyms is extremely large and headache-provoking.
Then there are the royal titles:
Ton That Tung.
Ton That Duong Ky
Ton Nu Thi Ninh,
Cong Huyen Ton Nu Nha Trang.
As for me, my name was hopelessly scrambled in the days before feminism made it possible for women to retain their married names. So I should be listed under Tai, Hue-Tam Ho, having been born Ho Hue-Tam (my parents included the hyphen on the birth certificate!)
Hue-Tam Ho Tai
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From: Larry Ashmun
Date: Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 8:26 AM
Given the inherent difficulties, and getting back to the original matter -- namely, indexing, what's important is for each indexer to be use a consistent approach which should be stated upfront in the work and, "ideally", coincide with how the Vietnamese names appear in the text. Otherwise, the index'll need to be full of cross-references.
Larry Ashmun
UW-Madison Libraries
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From: Virginia Shih
Date: Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 12:06 PM
Dear Colleagues,
As per Chapter 9.2.2.9 “General Guidelines on Recording Names Containing a
Surname” of the online final draft of RDA: Resource Description and Access
available at http://www.rda-jsc.org/rdafulldraft.html, scheduled for
release by November 2009, the only Vietnamese name example listed on page
24 is as follows:
Tri.nh, V^an Thanh
A comma is used after the surname Tri.nh.
Chapter 9 of RDA provides general and specific guidelines on the variant
forms for personal names that professional catalogers consult when
establishing name authority records regardless of languages. RDA is
published by the American Library Association, Canadian Library
Association, and The Chartered Institute of Library and Information
Professionals.
Sincerely yours,
Virginia Shih
University of California, Berkeley
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From: Virginia Shih
Date: Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 1:35 PM
Dear Colleagues,
For historical references to Vietnamese name discussions, please see:
Do Van Anh and Marion W. Ross, trans. "Should Vietnamese Authors Be
Catalogued by Personal Name or Family Name?" CORMOSEA (Committee on
Research Materials on Southeast Asia) Newsletter 6.2 March 1973: 16-20.
Phan Quang Loc. "An Introduction to Vietnamese Personal Names and National
Usage for Entry in Library Catalogues." Published as BISA Special Project
No. 17 by BISA (Bibliographic Information on Southeast Asia), University
of Sydney, Australia in April 1985.
Phan Thien Chau. "Library Cataloguing of Vietnamese Names: Difficulties
and Recommendations." Committee on Research Materials on Southeast Asia,
Association for Asian Studies, New York, March 26, 1972. Department of
Manuscripts & University Archives, Cornell University Libraries.
Ms. Lian Tie Kho, former Southeast Asia cataloger at Yale University
Library compiled the following historical Vietnamese name files available
at Yale and Berkeley for access:
* Vietnamese
* Vietnamese 1993
* Vietnamese classification & names
* Vietnamese names
* Vietnamese names A2
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From: Le Dong Phuong
Date: Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 8:38 AM
Dear listers,
From all discussion about indexing Vietnamese names it is interesting to see
how much influence the 'westerners' are trying to put upon Vietnamese name.
I know the 'Caucasian' folks use their family names as most important ones,
and they would like the 'non-caucasian' folks to follow. I still remember
the guy at whose office I was registering my Social Security number. He has
forced me to put my name the American way and he was puzzled when I asked
"how many Nguyen's or Le's do you have on your records?".
Here in Vietnam we have a Vietnamese standard (TCVN) for cataloging
Vietnamese names. Given names first (the last word of to-be-given-name, ie.
Anh instead of Van-Anh), then the rest of family names-middle names by
alphabet. But the names have to be written out in their Vietnamese way (ie.
Nguyen Thi Van Anh will be sorted as Anh, Nguyen Thi Van before Tran Van
Anh). If interested one could check out at 26 Ly Thuong Kiet, National
Center for Scientific and Technical Information - the agency prepared the
TCVN in consultation with UNESCO.
Hope that will be at least a formal standard, recognized by international
bodies.
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