Embedded Files
Gibbs, Jason (LIB) Jason.Gibbs at sfpl.org
Mon May 23 09:31:05 PDT 2016
http://vnexpress.net/tin-tuc/thoi-su/ong-obama-goi-2-suat-bun-cha-ha-noi-3407803.html
Here is some giddy reportage of an hour and forty minutes of Obama’s stay in Hanoi. He impressed everyone by eating two helpings of bún chả.
Jason Gibbs
San Francisco
peter hansen peterhansen.aus at gmail.com
Mon May 23 16:50:46 PDT 2016
It is a remarkable and and politically subversive image. How widely has it
been disseminated in the Vietnamese press and social media?
Peter Hansen
Nguyen Lan Huong huong.newasia at gmail.com
Mon May 23 17:10:22 PDT 2016
I do believe that all Vietnameses are so excited to welcome President Obama
and the fact that they "fall in love" with his friendly attitute.
Everywhere people smile:)) 😄
And after 2 suat bun cha, President helped Vietnam to promote our country'
image and Vietnamese cuisine to the world. A lot of foreigners will come to
eat "Bun Cha" in Vietnam and in the US after this trip!
Sincerely thank President Obama, Sec. John Kerry, Sen. John McCain and all
other Americans and Vietnamese who devote for Fulbright University Vietnam
(FUV) and TPP.
Now, it is the time for a great future together, and for FUV' success.
Thank you,
Huong Nguyen
David Payne payne.dave at gmail.com
Mon May 23 18:19:44 PDT 2016
Well, I think it is safe to say that Huong has answered Peter's point about
how politically subversive the bún chả moment was in Vietnam..
It has been widely reported in national media. Photos here, including the
inevitable cavalcade, and Vietnamese police outside requiring residents
above the restaurant to keep their windows closed:
http://vnexpress.net/tin-tuc/thoi-su/ong-obama-goi-2-suat-bun-cha-ha-noi-3407803.html
David Payne
Hanoi
Michael Gray maigray at yahoo.com
Mon May 23 19:11:12 PDT 2016
I've had some fun trying to keep track of how Vietnam's cartoonists and Photoshoppers are marking Obama's trip:
https://www.facebook.com/TiaSangVietnam/photos/?tab=album&album_id=484957251703200
Regards,Mike Gray
From: David Payne <payne.dave at gmail.com>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg at u.washington.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 23, 2016 9:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] "Tổng thống Mỹ ăn hai suất bún chả"
Well, I think it is safe to say that Huong has answered Peter's point about how politically subversive the bún chả moment was in Vietnam..
It has been widely reported in national media. Photos here, including the inevitable cavalcade, and Vietnamese police outside requiring residents above the restaurant to keep their windows closed:http://vnexpress.net/tin-tuc/thoi-su/ong-obama-goi-2-suat-bun-cha-ha-noi-3407803.html
David PayneHanoi
peter hansen peterhansen.aus at gmail.com
Mon May 23 19:51:06 PDT 2016
My point was, how many Vietnamese will think to themselves "The Leader of
the Western world sits down in a quan bun cha binh dan; would our leaders
ever be seen doing that? What comparitive conclusions might they then draw
as to their own political elite?
Peter Hansen
Nguyen Lan Huong huong.newasia at gmail.com
Mon May 23 20:37:57 PDT 2016
Wow... thanks Peter for reminding us about this matter.
Ho Chi Minh, Vo Nguyen Giap or many many others I read in Vietnam history
are the great examples for "binh dan".
Honestly, talking about leaders and "binh dan", I think not only sitting in
"quan bun cha" shall be considered as "binh dan".
As a student, for me, the strong, persistent and committed support by our
Sec. Kerry for establishment and operation of FUV prove his "binh dan" with
Vietnam. Sec. Kerry and Sen. McCain and a lot of others really think about
Vietnam future. I highly appreciate their contributions to Vietnam, even
though both of these guys might not stay in any "Quan Bun Cha".
Viva for US- Vietnam relation!
Best, Huong Nguyen
Gibbs, Jason (LIB) Jason.Gibbs at sfpl.org
Tue May 24 11:36:33 PDT 2016
The nature of American political life is that to succeed one must learn to have the common touch (no matter whether one has a silver spoon in their background or not). Candidates need to seem like the guy or gal you have a beer with or share a meal with (even though they’re actually doing the work of multi-national corporations or the military industrial complex).
In Vietnamese political life this common touch is not a requirement.
Obama’s charm offensive is reinforcing an already strong love for America that most Vietnamese feel. It’s in large part because he’s shown a desire to get to know the people there – they want Vietnam to be known and acknowledged.
I’ve done a quick translation of a couple of poems In modified lục bát meter just posted to Facebook by a septuagenarian who is retired from the Voice of Vietnam radio where he was in charge of traditional music programming.
https://www.facebook.com/danhuyen.pham?fref=nf
1- Tổng thống Mỹ Obama
American president Obama
Đến Hà Nội thưởng thức quà Việt Nam
Came to Hanoi, enjoyed a Vietnamese snack
Bún chả chẳng phải quà sang
Noodles with grilled meat isn't a noble snack
Mà quà dân tộc dân gian bao đời
But a snack of the people for many ages
Tổng thống khoái chí ngồi xơi
The President is satisfied to sit and imbibe
Uống bia Hà Nội vui cười với dân
He drinks Hanoi beer, happily laughing with the people
Một Tổng thống rất dễ gần
A president who's very sociable
Biết chọn bún chả là thần quà quê.
Knew to choose noodles with grilled meat, the homeland's wonderful snack
2- Hàng bún chả Lê Văn Hưu
The Lê Văn Hưu noodle with grilled meat stand
Tối nay tấp nập dập dìu người ăn
Tonight it's bustling with diners
Lại được đón bạn tri âm
Able to greet a bosom friend
Tổng thống Mỹ thành người thân của mình
The American president has become our close friend
Ông ăn bún chả ngon lành
He eats delicious noodles with grilled meat
Uống bia Hà Nội cũng sành điệu ghê
Drinks Hanoi beer, what a connoisseur
Obama ai cũng mê
Obama, everyone's crazy about him
Gần dân vui chuyện chẳng hề cách ngăn.
Close to the people, happily conversing, never kept separate
DÂN HUYỀN
Margaret Suzanne Barnhill Bodemer mbodemer at calpoly.edu
Tue May 24 12:51:07 PDT 2016
Fantastic, thank you Jason!
Margaret B. Bodemer, Ph.D.
Spring 2016 Office Hours: MW 12:30-1:30pm, T 11:30am-1:30pm, 1-3pm & by appointment.
http://socialsciences.calpoly.edu/faculty/maggie-bodemer
http://history.calpoly.edu/faculty/margaret-bodemer
https://calpoly.academia.edu/MargaretBarnhillBodemer
San Luis Obispo, CA
Quyen Nguyen quyenn14 at stanford.edu
Mon May 23 21:19:49 PDT 2016
Yes, a lot of Vietnamese absolutely adore Obama's supposedly binh dan
gesture. Meanwhile many cringe at how thô thiển Ms. Ngan's fish-feeding
<https://www.facebook.com/BBCVietnamese/videos/1264347110244695/> act was,
and how it is a national embarrassment to have a woman leader exhibit such
crudeness in front of a POTUS.
For many, "anh Ô" is certainly bình dân and cool for dining at a street
food joint with a CNN host plus an entourage outside, while bà Ngân is
considered nông dân and crude for being who she is. Very different
expectations for the powerful US leader and their own.
Nhu Miller trantnhu at gmail.com
Mon May 23 23:21:38 PDT 2016
Please explain why Ba Ngan's fish feeding was crude and a
"national embarrassment." Just curious.
T.T. Nhu
Quyen Nguyen quyenn14 at stanford.edu
Tue May 24 00:11:25 PDT 2016
A lot of comments on facebook on Ms. Ngan's gesture go like this: "Bà chủ
tịch quốc hội làm xấu mặt phụ nữ Việt Nam quá. Kg xứng đáng là một đại diện
của quốc gia. Bà thiếu lịch sự, thiếu nhận thức trầm trọng, thiếu cả văn
hoá ứng sử.... Sao bà Kim Ngân kg ném luôn cả cái xô xuống hồ cho cá"
or: thô kệch," "nhục quốc thể," "tôi không chấp nhận người đứng đầu nhà
nước lại như vậy"
The adoration of Obama and vilification of ba Ngan shows how extremist
Vietnamese (or just anywhere?) social media is. Especially when it gets to
online shaming, the language gets aggressive. I honestly find both extremes
quite eerie.
Margaret Suzanne Barnhill Bodemer mbodemer at calpoly.edu
Tue May 24 08:47:06 PDT 2016
Quyen and all,
I find it kind of interesting that this particular moment could be seen as cringe-worthy by some online but I confess I don't quite understand which part particularly. Is it that Ms. Ngan seemed to be dismissing the Fish Dying Controversy or trying to get Obama to symbolically acknowledge Vietnam's position vis-a-vis China in the event at the stilt house where she led Obama in throwing fish food to the fish? Or is it that she displayed "rude" manners by demonstrating to him how he should be flinging bigger handfuls, more widely? (Which he subtly resisted) Or that she dumped about half of it at the end impatiently when Obama when to move on? And which part was considered "nong dan" which I take here as peasant/country pejoratively.
Best, Maggie
Margaret B. Bodemer, Ph.D.
Spring 2016 Office Hours: MW 12:30-1:30pm, T 11:30am-1:30pm, 1-3pm & by appointment.
http://socialsciences.calpoly.edu/faculty/maggie-bodemer
http://history.calpoly.edu/faculty/margaret-bodemer
https://calpoly.academia.edu/MargaretBarnhillBodemer
San Luis Obispo, CA
Thaveeporn Vasavakul Thaveeporn at mail.kvsinter.com
Tue May 24 14:20:17 PDT 2016
(1) I believe all the (not so necessary) comments on fish feeding are based on the video clip posted by "Dân Làm Báo VN" on 23 May which basically shows fish feeding techniques adopted by President Obama and Ms. Nguyen Thi Kim Ngan, the first female chair of Vietnam's National Assembly. The post includes some very strange political comments, has been widely shared, and received a lot of LIKE. So far, there is no official clarification/rebuttal on how to feed fish from the Vietnamese government yet.
(2) One of the video clips (I am not sure from which source) shows President Obama taking off his wedding ring before shaking hands with the Vietnamese waiting for him in front of the bún ch? restaurant on Lê Van Huu. After that, many began to ask "why". For this one, there was a response (I am not sure about the source) that taking off the ring was the President's habit. Pictures of his hand shaking elsewhere were posted.
Much ado about nothing?
Thaveeporn Vasavakul, Ph.D
GoSFI - Governance Support Facility Initiatives
www.gosfi.org
Nhu Miller trantnhu at gmail.com
Tue May 24 15:52:07 PDT 2016
This reminds me of the way we used to analyze every
single move that leadership made in Franz Schurmann's
seminar many years ago. Not just reading between the
lines but interpreting. I think that Obama removed his ring
because
1. it was damn hot and his ring finger is swelling.
2. He knows he has to shake a lot of hands and is taking
preventative measure.
3. much ado about nothing
Here's another thing I'm curious about. Although I
adore Anthony Bourdain especially after his doing an
entire show about my hometown HUE and eating
really down home foord -- why Obama couldn't find
a Viet to show him around the eating places?
Nhu
Margaret Suzanne Barnhill Bodemer mbodemer at calpoly.edu
Tue May 24 16:27:35 PDT 2016
Re: Anthony Bourdain, echoing Nhu, I too wondered why they couldn't include someone from the local foodie community in Hanoi, or a local chef or someone. I assume this is due to the fact that Bourdain probably invited him; and they [the White House] didn't know anyone else to ask. Then as I was discussing this with my students, I realized that I was irritated that it wasn't ME who got to eat Bun Cha with Obama and kind of dropped it..ha!
Cheers,
Margaret B. Bodemer, Ph.D.
Spring 2016 Office Hours: MW 12:30-1:30pm, T 11:30am-1:30pm, 1-3pm & by appointment.
http://socialsciences.calpoly.edu/faculty/maggie-bodemer
http://history.calpoly.edu/faculty/margaret-bodemer
https://calpoly.academia.edu/MargaretBarnhillBodemer
San Luis Obispo, CA
Bill Hayton bill.hayton at bbc.co.uk
Tue May 24 16:37:22 PDT 2016
Bourdain appears to be working on a programme and did invite others to eat with him later – but that didn’t get any coverage.
From: Vsg [mailto:vsg-bounces at mailman11.u.washington.edu] On Behalf Of Margaret Suzanne Barnhill Bodemer
Sent: 25 May 2016 00:28
To: Nhu Miller; Thaveeporn Vasavakul
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group
Subject: Re: [Vsg] "T?ng th?ng M? an hai su?t bún ch?"
Re: Anthony Bourdain, echoing Nhu, I too wondered why they couldn't include someone from the local foodie community in Hanoi, or a local chef or someone. I assume this is due to the fact that Bourdain probably invited him; and they [the White House] didn't know anyone else to ask. Then as I was discussing this with my students, I realized that I was irritated that it wasn't ME who got to eat Bun Cha with Obama and kind of dropped it..ha!
Cheers,
Margaret B. Bodemer, Ph.D.
mbodemer at calpoly.edu<mailto:mbodemer at calpoly.edu>
Spring 2016 Office Hours: MW 12:30-1:30pm, T 11:30am-1:30pm, 1-3pm & by appointment.
http://socialsciences.calpoly.edu/faculty/maggie-bodemer
http://history.calpoly.edu/faculty/margaret-bodemer
https://calpoly.academia.edu/MargaretBarnhillBodemer
San Luis Obispo, CA
Quyen Nguyen quyenn14 at stanford.edu
Tue May 24 21:52:36 PDT 2016
Hi all,
Thanks Thaveeporn for the clarifications - Ms. Ngan is the female chair of
Vietnam's National Assembly.
Maggie, your guesses are as good as mine! My hunch is that Vietnamese
people have an internalized norm for what "civilized manners" should look
like. (So maybe it is a class issue as Nhu suggested?) Ms. Ngan's generous
handfuls were initially labeled "lacking in elegance." Many facebook
comments and memes later, her image becomes "nong dan" in the humiliating
sense. The self-enforced civilized/country divide is interesting.
Like Mike said, this trivial nitpicking probably shows a general discontent
with the leaders more than anything. Maybe some people are just bored.
About Bourdain...Viet Nguyen (the author) shares a similar question on the
facebook:
"Anthony Bourdain? Really? They couldn't find a Vietnamese person to be the
"authentic" food guide?"
Thanks all for your thoughts on the fish feed and other
much-ado-about-nothing instances. I'm curious if conversations surrounding
Obama's speeches and human rights will capture as much public attention as
these chuyện bên lề.
Michael Gray maigray at yahoo.com
Wed May 25 05:14:39 PDT 2016
Hi Quyen and all,
Online hate is without doubt more a reflection of the haters than the hatee (in this case Ms Ngan). Giang Dang recently wrote a series of articles on online hate for Tuoi Tre, focused on the hate campaign against singer Ho Ngoc Ha. I've summarized Giang's articles and added some notes of my own in this article:
https://www.tiasangvietnam.org/flashnote-me-se-and-online-hate/
Around the same time I posted that article, Giang joined in a video produced by the oddly named 'Bitches in Town' YouTube show that parroted Jimmy Kimmel's "Mean Tweets" series:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95jPqswnl0Y
Giang appears at the end of the video. (As Bitches in Town is a gossip show that hates on people all the time, I'm not sure why they feel they can take the moral highroad! If you can't beat 'em, join 'em?)
The work by some NGOs in Hanoi to promote online kindness (Tu Te Online) is something that my project has participated in, as we worked with Live & Learn on 'Safer Internet Day 2016', which had a 'tu te' focus. The wonderful artwork produced by our contest participations is worth a look!
https://www.facebook.com/Online.TuTe/?ref=bookmarks
Elizabeth Guthrie-Higbee elizabeth.guthrie-higbee at otago.ac.nz
Tue May 24 00:32:58 PDT 2016
being compassionate to fish = Buddhism 101- right?
Eliz
Thaveeporn Vasavakul Thaveeporn at mail.kvsinter.com
Tue May 24 02:50:41 PDT 2016
Dear List,
Do you know whether the US Embassy in Vietnam has translated/will translate Obama's speeches into Vietnamese? I am particularly interested in the speech given at the National Convention Center in My Dinh on 24 May(today).
Many thanks.
Thaveeporn Vasavakul, Ph.D
GoSFI - Governance Support Facility Initiatives
www.gosfi.org
Thaveeporn Vasavakul Thaveeporn at mail.kvsinter.com
Tue May 24 13:22:28 PDT 2016
Thanks those who have shared some translations. So far, I have seen three, one published by VN Express, one from somebody affiliated with a student group (I am not sure exactly about the source), and one published in Lao Dong. The VN Express and the Lao Dong translations are pretty much the same although the latter has a bit more information and reads a bit better. For me, all of them look like summaries of selected remarks - a lot of sections are missing and many choices of terms/phrases problematic. Very much look forward to a final improved version from the Vietnamese side or an official version from the US side. Please share, if you see other versions.
Some missing sections:
- Achievements of doi moi, the rise of the middle classes, and their increasingly active role in environmental protection
- Rule of law as the basis for economic development, anti-corruption, and TPP and the need for reform
- Rights
- 3-4 references to Thomas Jefferson
- 3-4 references to anti-corruption
- ++++
The list of problematic terms/phrases is too long to share.
I understand that certain remarks may be considered politically sensitive. But with the exception of Thomas Jefferson, nothing is terribly new to the Vietnamese?
Thaveeporn Vasavakul, Ph.D
GoSFI - Governance Support Facility Initiatives
www.gosfi.org
Bill Hayton bill.hayton at bbc.co.uk
Tue May 24 14:26:11 PDT 2016
I don't think the English-language version is on the Embassy website yet (I guess they're busy). It's on the White House site though
Bill Hayton
Thaveeporn Vasavakul Thaveeporn at mail.kvsinter.com
Tue May 24 14:23:16 PDT 2016
Many thanks. I will share this.
David Brown nworbd at gmail.com
Tue May 24 15:05:35 PDT 2016
The US Embassy translates all important statements by American official
visitors into Vietnamese. Often it takes a while, but I imagine they'll be
posting the President's speech in its entirety and very soon. If you need
the text urgently, I suggest you give the Embassy's Public Affairs section
chief Terry White a call.
David Brown
Anh Pham gaupvn at gmail.com
Tue May 24 15:39:14 PDT 2016
I don't think an official version will be available until someone returns
to DC which won't be until May 28.
Anh Pham
That manly voice of god that dictates those of the mockingbirds
HCMC
Vuong Vu-Duc vuduc.vuong at gmail.com
Tue May 24 16:26:10 PDT 2016
Anyone who might want to compare paragraph by paragraph, can juxtapose the
White House version with this translation on Tuoi Tre:
*Toàn văn phát biểu của Tổng thống Obama trước 2.000 người ở Mỹ Đình *
24/05/2016 22:00 GMT+7
Michael Gray maigray at yahoo.com
Tue May 24 07:38:00 PDT 2016
Elizabeth,I think it's just the way she dumped the whole bucket of feed in like she was bored with it after one toss. It's an extreme reaction to go after her for it - more an indication of the current unhappiness w the leaders than anything else I guess.
Mike
Nhu Miller trantnhu at gmail.com
Tue May 24 08:22:19 PDT 2016
Is this a class issue? Who is Ba Ngan? Somebody's wife?
A politician? An interloper? Someone who's badly dressed?
The comments, sans context seem rather harsh.
T.T. Nhu
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