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From: Anthony Le
Date: Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 11:28 PM
Hi Vsgers,
Recently, in the conflicts between the Catholic Church and the government, we often witness a group of people characterized as "quan chung tu phat" who basically oppose the Catholics and have actions that harm them whether physically or demanding to destroy their property.
Does anyone have a translation for this term in English? And why do they usually appear in such conflicts with the government? Where do they come from? Since when have this "quan chung tu phat" began to appear in events? I would appreciate if Vsgers can help shed some light on what is known as "quan chung tu phat". Thanks.
Anthony
MPH Aids Center, Thailand
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From: DiGregorio, Michael
Date: Wed, Aug 5, 2009 at 11:36 PM
I think the appropriate term, but not the direct translation, is "lumpen
proletariat'.
Michael DiGregorio
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From: David Brown
Date: Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 1:06 AM
I imagine there are a couple of words before quan chung tu phat (quần chúng tự phát in Vietnamese), something like phong trao (phòng trào) -- movement or bieu tinh (biểu tỉnh) demnstration. That yields "spontaneous mass movement" or "spontaneous mass demonstration." I imagine a search on any standard primer on Leninist tactics would turn up lots of citations. Cheers, David
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From: Le Dong Phuong
Date: Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 4:36 PM
Basically this could be equivalent of the Amercan term of "mob"
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From: Shawn McHale
Date: Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 4:55 PM
Dear list,
I think we have to know the context more before deciding on a translation. But David Brown's suggestion about the :Leninist gloss to the term is right on. Would I be correct in assuming that this term shows up in official media? I ask because in Marxist-Leninist parlance, the masses -- "quần chúng" -- are always good, just as the working class is good and the bourgeoisie evil.
Now, if people are "incited" by "reactionaries" (bọn phản động), particularly if the reactionaries are foreign "elements" with some sort of "poisonous plot," I think that the "masses" might "spontaneously" act in a rightful manner. . . . don't you? Thank goodness for the purity of the masses. . . and down with terrorist poisonous reactionary plots against the Land of our Ancestors . .
Shawn McHale
Director
Sigur Center for Asian Studies
Associate Professor of History and International Affairs
George Washington University
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From: Anthony Le
Date: Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 8:01 AM
The term "mob" seems to imply that it is negative and disorderly and probably illegal. However, in these government vs. religion conflicts, the "quan chung tu phat" are often presented in the official media in rather positive tones. The references tend to depict them as a group of people reacting to the wrong doing of the religious groups. Their actions of violence or threats of violence have not resulted in any legal actions against them even when they were carried out in the presence of the police.
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From: Hue-Tam Ho Tai
Date: Fri, Aug 7, 2009 at 8:11 AM
It sounds to me that this is an attempt to present these crowd actions as not being organized by outside agents. They are as "tu phat" as the tea-baggers' activities are in the US right now. A translation might be "spontaneous mass demonstrations" or "spontatneous mass action" (avoid protest since it usually means protest against authorities).
Hue-Tam Ho Tai
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From: Le Dong Phuong
Date: Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 1:48 AM
Well in this context it could be more correctly translated as "spontaneous people groups". But it would not reflect the meaning of sharing the same intention by these groups.
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