BBC: Summit fear for Vietnamese homeless

Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 16:10:12 -0600

From: "Philip Arthur Moore" <philip.arthur.moore@gmail.com>

To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>

Subject: [Vsg] BBC: Summit fear for Vietnamese homeless

Hey gang,

I just ran into a story by the BBC which states that the homeless in Ha Noi are getting treated pretty poorly this week to improve the appearance of the capitol for visitors.

Link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6142134.stm

Can anyone in Ha Noi comment on this?

-Philip

Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 19:14:11 -0500

From: "Diem Ngoc Nguyen" <ndnguyen@unc.edu>

To: vsg@u.washington.edu

Subject: Re: [Vsg] BBC: Summit fear for Vietnamese homeless

Dear Philip,

Thank you for your sharing the information. Although I am not from Ha

Noi, but Ho Chi Minh, I would like to give some comment on the news.

In my opinion, I do not think that is a good way to do. However, I do

not think it too serious to be considered as human right violation. As

Vietnamese traditional culture, when a family has some guest, children

are not allowed to wander or present in or around the living room. If

necessary, they should be dressing and neat. That is the way the host

shows their respect to the guest. In that case, those children still

understand their parents' action is reasonable rather than thinking

that their parents do not love them.

That is my opinion. Hopefully it gives another look to the issue.

Best regards,

From: "Minh Tran" <mtran@csulb.edu>

Subject: Re: [Vsg] BBC: Summit fear for Vietnamese homeless

To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>

Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 18:47:01 -0800

As a Vietnamese and an On-again, off-again resident of Ho

Chi Minh City, I believe that the story on BBC (Summit

fear for Vietnam Homeless) is a bit exaggerated. Street

children roaming the street selling souvenirs and

following foreigners for candy and money are ubiquitous in

Viet Nam. Depending on certain foreigners, it can be

annoying when street-kids tail you all day (mostly fear of

pick-pocketing). Thus, the government is attempting to

eliminate this distraction by making the city more

relaxing. The Vietnamese government is trying to make

their cities look more like Downtown New York City or Los

Angeles, where tourists can feel safe and not be

distracted by the poverty of the country. Why? Because

tourism gives in the money! In 2003, the SEA (South East

Asia) game in Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh City was a big deal. I

was in Ho Chi Minh City three different times in 2002

(mostly for my wedding) and saw big changes in the city.

City streets (such as duong Quang Trung) were widened; new

city parks were constructed (Cong Vien Gia Dinh in quan

Phu Nhuan); new traffic regulation such as wearing helmet

on major highway and occasional vehicle registration

checkpoint. Soon, Ho Chi Minh City will no longer look

like what it was 10 years ago. Hanoi is no different. The

Vietnamese government has a different approach in cleaning

their street; however, their approach will never satisfy

the human rights activists.

Minh Huynh Tran

Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 11:04:59 +0700

From: "Cari Coe" <ccoe@ucla.edu>

To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>

Subject: [Vsg] Re: Summit fear for VNese homeless

Dear VSGers:

Hello there, I thought I'd put in my 2 cents' worth since I'm currently

living in Hanoi. I happen to live on a street that is on the way to

the Daewoo Hotel and for the past 3 weeks, our neighborhood has been

subject to some serious "cleaning up." It started with a decision to

redo the entire sidewalk, sewage and electricity system all in one

week, which got the entire neighborhood up in arms. I only slightly

exaggerate when I say that the arguments among neighbors that broke out

as a result were louder than the jackhammers.

This morning, as I drove to my research institute, I didn't recognize

my own street because there was NOTHING on the wide sidewalks that are

usually packed with motorbikes, vendors and vegetable sellers.

Replacing them were red iron signs posted every 10 meters that stated

that nothing could be on the sidewalks. For the past week with

increasing intensity, streams of police vans drive down the road with

sirens and bullhorns, checking the sidewalks and generally generating

an air of authority. Now, such things always happen in Vietnam, you

might say, and I agree, but I have never seen it with this degree of

magnitude, or enforced with such vigor.

There were no shoulder-pole vegetable sellers at the market this

morning and a friend of mine said that she saw police seizing people's

shoulder poles and goods two days' ago.

My landlord said that all 'heroine addicts' have been arrested, that

these 'upgrades' to the neighborhood infrastructure were un-announced

and that people are generally quite upset about it (as I noted from the

arguments).

That's my summary of what I have seen going on in Hanoi. So yes, I

too, would worry for the homeless and those who make their living

selling on the informal market.

Cari Coe

Subject: RE: [Vsg] BBC: Summit fear for Vietnamese homeless

Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 15:25:51 +1100

From: "Ashley Carruthers" <Ashley.Carruthers@anu.edu.au>

To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>

Hi all,

The Blue Dragon Center in Hanoi works with street kids. They'd probably

be a good group to ask. They also have a fairly fascinating blog:

http://vietnamstreets.blogspot.com/

A source of very up to date information on homeless kids in the city

from the pov of people (westerners) who work with them. The drama going

on now has to do with the local middle class people on the street Blue

Dragon is located on complaining about the presence of the former

street

kids in "their" space.

Best,

ashley

Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 15:08:35 +0700

From: "jon mcintyre" <jon.mcintyre@gmail.com>

To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>

Subject: Re: [Vsg] Re: Summit fear for VNese homeless

I have similar experiences to Cari's. I just drove back into town yesterday from a mini-trip down to Ninh Binh. We drove up Giai Phong onto Dai Co Viet down to Pho Hue and I barely recognized the place. Even in that part of the city, where there are less "street people" than closer to the tourist hangouts, public life on the streets had disappeared. All of the usual sidewalk tea sellers and so forth were gone, and about half of the shops were closed up as well. Downtown had a subdued air to it, with much less of the boisterous honking and exciting sidewalk goings-on that we associate with Hanoi.

Also, I live way down in Thanh Xuan, not far from the big new convention center they've built over the past couple of years for APEC. The back between Thanh Xuan and Cau Giay have a heavy police presence, not just the usual Canh Sat Giao THong, but the black clad CSCD (or something, I didn't want to look at them too hard...) that look like they could break me in half. In the previous weeks, they went ahead and knocked down shops and houses along a couple of the roads here in order to widen and beautify them. While it makes driving down them much more pleasant, I can't imagine the former tenants and shop owners are particularly pleased.

A couple of comments on the previous posts about this topic. I think that comparing the homeless and other down-and-out members of society to children to be hidden from visiting guests has some obvious issues that don't really need pointing out. It is interesting though, that APEC, a gathering celebrating and planning the future of free market economics and politics necessitates a repression of (what are seen as) the negative aspects of such reform in Vietnam. Also, I think that human rights, as defined by the UN, extends to the right to use the public spaces. This is a difficult issue in VN first because the line between public and private space is blurry and subject to drastic swings of fortune. But I guess that in some sense it's inevitable that the Vietnamese policy makers want to present a modern, civilized, face to the world during APEC. The process, of course, entails winners and losers in the contest of what gets to be included in the public eye. The problem is that the winners get to sip French wine, Dutch beers, and Italian coffee in the lobby of the Daewoo, and look outside at the suddenly orderly intersection of Kim Ma and Nguyen Chi Thanh and marvel at the seemingly victimless success of market capitalism.

Subject: RE: [Vsg] Re: Summit fear for VNese homeless

Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 03:29:42 -0500

From: "DiGregorio, Michael" <M.DiGregorio@fordfound.org>

To: jm394@cornell.edu, "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>

Dear all,

I think the BBC and others have under-value the security issues that the Ministry of Public Security is facing.

Putin, Abe, Howard and Bush and others will be moving throughout the city over the next few days. They routes have all been planned and cleared not only of traders and street kids, but parked vehicles, garbage cans... anything that can serve as hiding places or camouflage for people who might want to disrupt this meeting or do harm to delegates. You really can't blame the MPS for being cautious. This city is full of visitors - including tourists, journalists, corporate executives, advance teams for delegations and news services ... and the MPS cannot keep watch on everyone. The sites where gatherings will take place are all secure. Right now, without a pass, you will not be able to get into the hotels where delegations are staying. The least controllable areas for this meeting are the travel routes - and the MPS doesn't want to take any chances.

Mike

From: "Minh Tran" <mtran@csulb.edu>

Subject: Re: [Vsg] Re: Summit fear for VNese homeless

To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>

Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 08:06:16 -0800

One thing to keep in mind, the majority of Hanoian is

below poverty level. The Bac Ky or Northerners suffered

the most during the French and American War, which

provinces upon provinces were bombed out of oblivion.

Peasants and rustic villagers escaped into Hanoi and never

returned to their native village. This is one factor to

the overcrowding of the city over the past several

decades. Ho Chi Minh City has its fair share of

Northerners seeking employment in the southern region.

Many saw that Ho Chi Minh City’s economy rise much faster

than Hanoi since the mid-90s, thus luring people from

other regions to abandon their home for the prosperous

life of Saigon. If one was to interview a homeless person

and ask about his/her history, one will find that many of

them have no root in the big city. Due to either war or

economic backwardness of the rural land, big cities are

swamp with people without technical skill, trying to

scrape 15,000 to 30,000 D a day to survive. The question

is where will the people go? Since they do not have a

secure home in the city, any technical skill, or able to

return to the village.

Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 19:28:48 -0500

From: "Diem Ngoc Nguyen" <ndnguyen@unc.edu>

To: vsg@u.washington.edu

Subject: Re: [Vsg] Re: Summit fear for VNese homeless

I think we should look at the matter from many aspects instead of just

human or children?s rights. The controversial issue here is mainly the

conflict between hospitality, security and children?s right. How to

take the perfect action or perfect solution? It seems that some of you

want a win-win solution, but the question is that how to get it. Back

to Jon?s argument about using public space regarding to human right, I

think we should clarify that. People have rights to use public place,

but they do not have right to ?annoy? other people who also have right

to use the same place. The right of using public place depends on what

purpose the place is for. For example, do people have right to waste

trash on streets? Besides, I think we should not misunderstand between

?using? and ?occupying? public space.

We all know that the reason those kids have to work or sell things on

streets is they are poor. I started work for my living when I was six

years old so I understand how hard they are and can imagine what they

are suffering. However, we cannot just look at one event like the APEC

then make the conclusion that human right is violated. To answer why

those kids have to work on streets, we have to follow a long story with

hundreds questions of which there are many relations to poverty and

even historical issues like Minh mentioned.

Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 19:42:02 -0500