BBC: Summit fear for Vietnamese homeless
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 16:10:12 -0600
From: "Philip Arthur Moore" <philip.arthur.moore@gmail.com>
To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: [Vsg] BBC: Summit fear for Vietnamese homeless
Hey gang,
I just ran into a story by the BBC which states that the homeless in Ha Noi are getting treated pretty poorly this week to improve the appearance of the capitol for visitors.
Link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6142134.stm
Can anyone in Ha Noi comment on this?
-Philip
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 19:14:11 -0500
From: "Diem Ngoc Nguyen" <ndnguyen@unc.edu>
To: vsg@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] BBC: Summit fear for Vietnamese homeless
Dear Philip,
Thank you for your sharing the information. Although I am not from Ha
Noi, but Ho Chi Minh, I would like to give some comment on the news.
In my opinion, I do not think that is a good way to do. However, I do
not think it too serious to be considered as human right violation. As
Vietnamese traditional culture, when a family has some guest, children
are not allowed to wander or present in or around the living room. If
necessary, they should be dressing and neat. That is the way the host
shows their respect to the guest. In that case, those children still
understand their parents' action is reasonable rather than thinking
that their parents do not love them.
That is my opinion. Hopefully it gives another look to the issue.
Best regards,
From: "Minh Tran" <mtran@csulb.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] BBC: Summit fear for Vietnamese homeless
To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2006 18:47:01 -0800
As a Vietnamese and an On-again, off-again resident of Ho
Chi Minh City, I believe that the story on BBC (Summit
fear for Vietnam Homeless) is a bit exaggerated. Street
children roaming the street selling souvenirs and
following foreigners for candy and money are ubiquitous in
Viet Nam. Depending on certain foreigners, it can be
annoying when street-kids tail you all day (mostly fear of
pick-pocketing). Thus, the government is attempting to
eliminate this distraction by making the city more
relaxing. The Vietnamese government is trying to make
their cities look more like Downtown New York City or Los
Angeles, where tourists can feel safe and not be
distracted by the poverty of the country. Why? Because
tourism gives in the money! In 2003, the SEA (South East
Asia) game in Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh City was a big deal. I
was in Ho Chi Minh City three different times in 2002
(mostly for my wedding) and saw big changes in the city.
City streets (such as duong Quang Trung) were widened; new
city parks were constructed (Cong Vien Gia Dinh in quan
Phu Nhuan); new traffic regulation such as wearing helmet
on major highway and occasional vehicle registration
checkpoint. Soon, Ho Chi Minh City will no longer look
like what it was 10 years ago. Hanoi is no different. The
Vietnamese government has a different approach in cleaning
their street; however, their approach will never satisfy
the human rights activists.
Minh Huynh Tran
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 11:04:59 +0700
From: "Cari Coe" <ccoe@ucla.edu>
To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: [Vsg] Re: Summit fear for VNese homeless
Dear VSGers:
Hello there, I thought I'd put in my 2 cents' worth since I'm currently
living in Hanoi. I happen to live on a street that is on the way to
the Daewoo Hotel and for the past 3 weeks, our neighborhood has been
subject to some serious "cleaning up." It started with a decision to
redo the entire sidewalk, sewage and electricity system all in one
week, which got the entire neighborhood up in arms. I only slightly
exaggerate when I say that the arguments among neighbors that broke out
as a result were louder than the jackhammers.
This morning, as I drove to my research institute, I didn't recognize
my own street because there was NOTHING on the wide sidewalks that are
usually packed with motorbikes, vendors and vegetable sellers.
Replacing them were red iron signs posted every 10 meters that stated
that nothing could be on the sidewalks. For the past week with
increasing intensity, streams of police vans drive down the road with
sirens and bullhorns, checking the sidewalks and generally generating
an air of authority. Now, such things always happen in Vietnam, you
might say, and I agree, but I have never seen it with this degree of
magnitude, or enforced with such vigor.
There were no shoulder-pole vegetable sellers at the market this
morning and a friend of mine said that she saw police seizing people's
shoulder poles and goods two days' ago.
My landlord said that all 'heroine addicts' have been arrested, that
these 'upgrades' to the neighborhood infrastructure were un-announced
and that people are generally quite upset about it (as I noted from the
arguments).
That's my summary of what I have seen going on in Hanoi. So yes, I
too, would worry for the homeless and those who make their living
selling on the informal market.
Cari Coe
Subject: RE: [Vsg] BBC: Summit fear for Vietnamese homeless
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 15:25:51 +1100
From: "Ashley Carruthers" <Ashley.Carruthers@anu.edu.au>
To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Hi all,
The Blue Dragon Center in Hanoi works with street kids. They'd probably
be a good group to ask. They also have a fairly fascinating blog:
http://vietnamstreets.blogspot.com/
A source of very up to date information on homeless kids in the city
from the pov of people (westerners) who work with them. The drama going
on now has to do with the local middle class people on the street Blue
Dragon is located on complaining about the presence of the former
street
kids in "their" space.
Best,
ashley
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 15:08:35 +0700
From: "jon mcintyre" <jon.mcintyre@gmail.com>
To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Re: Summit fear for VNese homeless
I have similar experiences to Cari's. I just drove back into town yesterday from a mini-trip down to Ninh Binh. We drove up Giai Phong onto Dai Co Viet down to Pho Hue and I barely recognized the place. Even in that part of the city, where there are less "street people" than closer to the tourist hangouts, public life on the streets had disappeared. All of the usual sidewalk tea sellers and so forth were gone, and about half of the shops were closed up as well. Downtown had a subdued air to it, with much less of the boisterous honking and exciting sidewalk goings-on that we associate with Hanoi.
Also, I live way down in Thanh Xuan, not far from the big new convention center they've built over the past couple of years for APEC. The back between Thanh Xuan and Cau Giay have a heavy police presence, not just the usual Canh Sat Giao THong, but the black clad CSCD (or something, I didn't want to look at them too hard...) that look like they could break me in half. In the previous weeks, they went ahead and knocked down shops and houses along a couple of the roads here in order to widen and beautify them. While it makes driving down them much more pleasant, I can't imagine the former tenants and shop owners are particularly pleased.
A couple of comments on the previous posts about this topic. I think that comparing the homeless and other down-and-out members of society to children to be hidden from visiting guests has some obvious issues that don't really need pointing out. It is interesting though, that APEC, a gathering celebrating and planning the future of free market economics and politics necessitates a repression of (what are seen as) the negative aspects of such reform in Vietnam. Also, I think that human rights, as defined by the UN, extends to the right to use the public spaces. This is a difficult issue in VN first because the line between public and private space is blurry and subject to drastic swings of fortune. But I guess that in some sense it's inevitable that the Vietnamese policy makers want to present a modern, civilized, face to the world during APEC. The process, of course, entails winners and losers in the contest of what gets to be included in the public eye. The problem is that the winners get to sip French wine, Dutch beers, and Italian coffee in the lobby of the Daewoo, and look outside at the suddenly orderly intersection of Kim Ma and Nguyen Chi Thanh and marvel at the seemingly victimless success of market capitalism.
Subject: RE: [Vsg] Re: Summit fear for VNese homeless
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 03:29:42 -0500
From: "DiGregorio, Michael" <M.DiGregorio@fordfound.org>
To: jm394@cornell.edu, "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear all,
I think the BBC and others have under-value the security issues that the Ministry of Public Security is facing.
Putin, Abe, Howard and Bush and others will be moving throughout the city over the next few days. They routes have all been planned and cleared not only of traders and street kids, but parked vehicles, garbage cans... anything that can serve as hiding places or camouflage for people who might want to disrupt this meeting or do harm to delegates. You really can't blame the MPS for being cautious. This city is full of visitors - including tourists, journalists, corporate executives, advance teams for delegations and news services ... and the MPS cannot keep watch on everyone. The sites where gatherings will take place are all secure. Right now, without a pass, you will not be able to get into the hotels where delegations are staying. The least controllable areas for this meeting are the travel routes - and the MPS doesn't want to take any chances.
Mike
From: "Minh Tran" <mtran@csulb.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Re: Summit fear for VNese homeless
To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 08:06:16 -0800
One thing to keep in mind, the majority of Hanoian is
below poverty level. The Bac Ky or Northerners suffered
the most during the French and American War, which
provinces upon provinces were bombed out of oblivion.
Peasants and rustic villagers escaped into Hanoi and never
returned to their native village. This is one factor to
the overcrowding of the city over the past several
decades. Ho Chi Minh City has its fair share of
Northerners seeking employment in the southern region.
Many saw that Ho Chi Minh City’s economy rise much faster
than Hanoi since the mid-90s, thus luring people from
other regions to abandon their home for the prosperous
life of Saigon. If one was to interview a homeless person
and ask about his/her history, one will find that many of
them have no root in the big city. Due to either war or
economic backwardness of the rural land, big cities are
swamp with people without technical skill, trying to
scrape 15,000 to 30,000 D a day to survive. The question
is where will the people go? Since they do not have a
secure home in the city, any technical skill, or able to
return to the village.
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 19:28:48 -0500
From: "Diem Ngoc Nguyen" <ndnguyen@unc.edu>
To: vsg@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Re: Summit fear for VNese homeless
I think we should look at the matter from many aspects instead of just
human or children?s rights. The controversial issue here is mainly the
conflict between hospitality, security and children?s right. How to
take the perfect action or perfect solution? It seems that some of you
want a win-win solution, but the question is that how to get it. Back
to Jon?s argument about using public space regarding to human right, I
think we should clarify that. People have rights to use public place,
but they do not have right to ?annoy? other people who also have right
to use the same place. The right of using public place depends on what
purpose the place is for. For example, do people have right to waste
trash on streets? Besides, I think we should not misunderstand between
?using? and ?occupying? public space.
We all know that the reason those kids have to work or sell things on
streets is they are poor. I started work for my living when I was six
years old so I understand how hard they are and can imagine what they
are suffering. However, we cannot just look at one event like the APEC
then make the conclusion that human right is violated. To answer why
those kids have to work on streets, we have to follow a long story with
hundreds questions of which there are many relations to poverty and
even historical issues like Minh mentioned.
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 19:42:02 -0500
From: "Diem Ngoc Nguyen" <ndnguyen@unc.edu>
To: vsg@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Re: Summit fear for VNese homeless
I think we should look at the matter from many aspects instead of just
human or children?s rights. The controversial issue here is mainly the
conflict between hospitality, security and children?s right. How to
take the perfect action or perfect solution? It seems that some of you
want a win-win solution, but the question is that how to get it. Back
to Jon?s argument about using public space regarding to human right, I
think we should clarify that. People have rights to use public place,
but they do not have right to ?annoy? other people who also have right
to use the same place. The right of using public place depends on what
purpose the place is for. For example, do people have right to waste
trash on streets? Besides, I think we should not misunderstand between
?using? and ?occupying? public space.
We all know that the reason those kids have to work or sell things on
streets is they are poor. I started work for my living when I was six
years old so I understand how hard they are and can imagine what they
are suffering. However, we cannot just look at one event like the APEC
then make the conclusion that human right is violated. To answer why
those kids have to work on streets, we have to follow a long story with
hundreds questions of which there are many relations to poverty and
even historical issues like Minh mentioned.
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 16:53:51 -0800 (PST)
From: "Anthony Le" <leductony@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Re: Summit fear for VNese homeless
To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>
I guess I would like to put in my two cent's worth. It
is unquestionable that the streets need to be cleared
at this time for the safety of all involved. And the
Vietnamese people will have to put up with it. From
the reports that I have read, I don't think the
Vietnamese people find it too unbearable to withstand
the inconveniences for the sake of what may be
achieved in these days.
The question would then be how can the Vietnamese
authority do so in the most "humane" way possible?
Normally, when there are no APEC events, street
children when arrested to detention centers are
already treated, let's be honest, the way Vietnamese
police treat people. If anyone's had an encounter with
the authority, you know the way people given a little
bit of power talk to and treat those who have less
power. The harshness of treatment is inversely
proportional to the amount of power the people have.
Now that APEC is here, just imagine how much more of
an excuse the authority has to mistreat the lowly
people for the sake of something much more important.
So, the matter at hand is not whether it is necessary
to clear the streets. But how it's done, and what
happens after APEC is over is important. Will there be
something beneficial done on behalf of the street
kids, as Vietnamese policy outlines, or will they be
let out to find their own ways as before? The issue is
not localized to these few weeks, but much more about
how the Vietnamese government deals with social issues
such as street children in general.
But in the mean time, anything can be sacrificed for
the sake of putting up a good face during the Summit.
anthony
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 18:43:43 -0800
Subject: Re: [Vsg] BBC: Summit fear for Vietnamese homeless
From: "Christoph Giebel" <giebel@u.washington.edu>
To: vsg@u.washington.edu
Here's the pertinent press release by Human Rights Watch; inside the
article is a link to the full Human Rights Watch report:
http://www.commondreams.org/news2006/1113-02.htm
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
NOVEMBER 13, 2006
10:28 AM
CONTACT: Human Rights Watch
Tel: 1-(212) 290-4700
Vietnam: Street Children at Risk Before APEC Summit
Police Roundups in Hanoi Land Children in Harsh Detention Centers
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 20:56:49 -0600
From: "Philip Arthur Moore" <philip.arthur.moore@gmail.com>
To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] BBC: Summit fear for Vietnamese homeless
Speaking of children, I trust that many of read an article by the
Washington Post today entitled "In Vietnam, Old Foes Take Aim at War's
Toxic Legacy"
Link:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/12/AR2006111201065.html
The reason I bring this up is because when I was in Vietnam, both
during 2004 and 2005, in Ho Chi Minh City, Hue, and Ha Noi alike, I
noticed that a good number of poor children were victims of Agent
Orange. I wonder how this is tying into the APEC situation that's
going on in Vietnam right now.
I will withhold my opinion about the treatment of kids in Ha Noi for
now, until I process all of this information.
This is, to say the least, a symptom of a much greater problem in
Vietnam. I don't know that raising Kane over the "mistreatment" of
people on the street in Vietnam should be the focus as much as the
reason why they are there should be. Just my two cents for now.
Philip