Embedded Files
From: Tan Pham <nxb315kio@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2023 3:28 PM
To: mchale@gwu.edu
Cc: vsg@uw.edu; VSG <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] "Vietnam War" in the South
Dear Pierre,
As I remember, I did not hear my parents and uncles use the term Cuộc chiến tranh chống Cộng sản Bắc Việt .
In daily conversations, they would refer to it as chiến tranh (war), or chiến tranh chống Cộng, (anti-communist war), or simply đánh nhau với Việt Cộng (fighting with the Vietnamese communists).
As for what the regime in Saigon officially used, I need to check various official speeches and newspaper articles.
Kind regards,
Tan Pham (NZ)
Author of a book series on Vietnamese history: A Traveller’s Story of Vietnam’s Past.
Volume One: The Bronze Drums and The Earrings. ISBN: 978-0-473-59804-4.
Volume Two: One Thousand Years - The Stories of Giao Châu, the Kingdoms of Linyi, Funan and Zhenla. ISBN 978-0-473-63527-5.
From: Shawn McHale <mchale@gwu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2023 3:09 PM
To: Nguyen Luong Hai Khoi <haikhoisp@gmail.com>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu; VSG <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] "Vietnam War" in the South
Apologies, my hasty mistake! -- Shawn McHale
From: Hue-Tam Tai <huetamtai@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2023 11:58 AM
To: mchale@gwu.edu; Nguyen Luong Hai Khoi <haikhoisp@gmail.com>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu; vsg@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] "Vietnam War" in the South
Shawn,
Pierre's question was about the term used by the "regime in Saigon" not historians or ordinary people. Hai Khoi's answer was appropriate.
I never heard the war referred to as "cuoc chien tranh Viet Nam" as Thuy's informants recalled it, but I heard ordinary people talking about what was happening using different terms depending on their political sympathies and their own roles in different aspects of it.
Hue-Tam Ho Tai
Harvard University emerita
From: Nguyen Luong Hai Khoi <haikhoisp@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2023 11:15 AM
To: mchale@gwu.edu
Cc: vsg@uw.edu; VSG <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] "Vietnam War" in the South
Hi Shawn McHale,
I just answered Comrade Pierre Asselin's question about nomenclature in the first email: What did the regime in Saigon officially call the period of the Americanized war in Vietnam (1965-73)?
The question of what term should historians use to describe this conflict is very difficult. It depends on the criteria that each historian chooses to see that war.
Best,
Khoi
Nguyen Luong Hai Khoi, US-Vietnam Research Center, University of Oregon
Managing Editor, US-Vietnam Review
VN: https://usvietnam.uoregon.edu/ EN: https://usvietnam.uoregon.edu/en/
From: Shawn McHale <mchale@gwu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2023 10:58 AM
To: Nguyen Luong Hai Khoi <haikhoisp@gmail.com>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu; VSG <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] "Vietnam War" in the South
Dear all,
Nguyen Luong Hai Khoi writes:
"In political discourses, South Vietnam called it "cuộc chiến bảo vệ tự do" ("the fight to protect freedom".) This phrase refers to the context of a divided world: liberal capitalism and totalitarian communism. This concept also refers to South Vietnam as the defender, and North Vietnam as the attacker (to the "freedom world".)"
You must be referring to official discourse, or in terms that were promoted by the Republic of Vietnam. But isn't the question what term should historians and others use to describe this conflict, one that could be acceptable to the entire range of persons, whether affiliated with political parties or not?
Shawn McHale
From: Nguyen Luong Hai Khoi <haikhoisp@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2023 8:18 AM
To: Đỗ Thị Thanh Thủy <thuydo259@gmail.com>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu; VSG <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] "Vietnam War" in the South
In my limited capacity, I have not found the phrase "Cuộc chiến tranh chống Cộng sản Bắc Việt" in media, political discourse or educational texts in South Vietnam.
In political discourses, South Vietnam called it "cuộc chiến bảo vệ tự do" ("the fight to protect freedom".) This phrase refers to the context of a divided world: liberal capitalism and totalitarian communism. This concept also refers to South Vietnam as the defender, and North Vietnam as the attacker (to the "freedom world".)
Before 1967, the popular concept in South Vietnam was "tự do" ("freedom".) The concept of "dân chủ" ("democracy") became popular after South Vietnam had the 1967 Constitution.
Nguyen Luong Hai Khoi, US-Vietnam Research Center, University of Oregon
Managing Editor, US-Vietnam Review
From: Cau Thai <cvthai75@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2023 6:56 AM
To: Pierre Asselin <passelin@sdsu.edu>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu; VSG <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] "Vietnam War" in the South
Dear Comrade Pierre,
Being born in Huế but growing up in Sài Gòn, I went through two different school systems in the South, one before 1975 and one after 1975.
Before 1975, the term was "Chiến tranh Việt Nam" or shorter "Chiến tranh". After 1975, the term was "Chiến tranh chống Mỹ, cứu nước".
"Chiến tranh Việt Nam" is still a commonly used term in the U.S. nowadays.
Calvin Thai
Independent
From: Đỗ Thị Thanh Thủy <thuydo259@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2023 6:21 PM
To: Pierre Asselin <passelin@sdsu.edu>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu; VSG <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] "Vietnam War" in the South
Dear Dr Asselin,
I am not sure it answers your question, but my interviewees who lived through that period, often called "cái thời chiến tranh với Mỹ" when they talked about that time. My interviewees are ordinary rural women who migrated from North to South since the French colonial period.
Best wishes,
Thuy
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Đỗ Thị Thanh Thủy - Thuy Do
Ph.D. student, Department of Gender, Sexuality, and Women's Studies
Simon Fraser University, British Columbia, Canada
Lecturer, Faculty of Social Science, Hoa Sen University
From: Tuan Hoang <tuannyriver@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2023 5:24 PM
To: Pierre Asselin <passelin@sdsu.edu>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu; VSG <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] "Vietnam War" in the South
Pierre-
The predominant term that I've seen among Vietnamese Americans is simply Chiến tranh Việt Nam: The Vietnam War. They might sometimes speak or write of Cuộc chiến Việt Nam, but chiến tranh Việt Nam is by far the most common. It's less colorful than Cuộc kháng chiến chống Mỹ cứu nước, to be sure, but also a linguistically succinct signpost.
Not that you asked, but the term Second Indochina War (chiến tranh Đông Dương lần 2), which is favored and used by many scholars in the West, is rarely used among Vietnamese in the US.
Cuộc chiến tranh chống Cộng sản Bắc Việt? Hmm, it sounds too much of a mouthful to gain official adoption, leave alone popular usage, in the RVN. But I'm open to evidence to the contrary.
Tuan Hoang
Pepperdine University
www.tuannyriver.com/about
From: Pierre Asselin <passelin@sdsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2023 4:37 PM
To: VSG <vsg@u.washington.edu>; vsg@uw.edu
Subject: [Vsg] "Vietnam War" in the South
Beloved Comrades:
Questions about nomenclature: what did the regime in Saigon officially call the period of the Americanized war in Vietnam (1965-73)? Did average (non/anticommunist) Southern men and women call it something different? Did anyone use "cuộc chiến tranh chống Cộng sản Bắc Việt"? Also, what term/s do Vietnamese Americans (those in Orange County, for instance) use today? Do young and old use the same term/s?
I've got the Hanoi/Northern side figured out; hope to know more about the Saigon/Southern side.
Sincere thanks.
Pierre
Pierre Asselin
Professor of History - Dwight E. Stanford Chair in US Foreign Relations
San Diego State University
History Department
5500 Campanile Dr.
San Diego, CA 92182-6050
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