Soup Without the Pilot

Dana Sachs wrote:

I'm in the midst of fact-checking my research for a book about Hanoi and I have a couple of obscure bits of information I'm hoping someone might be able to confirm for me.

In 1992, a friend in Hanoi told me that, as a joke, Vietnamese who wanted to order "pho" with no meat in it would order "pho khong co nguoi lai"-pho without the pilot (or driver). She explained that the term originated during the war, when the U.S. sent unmanned reconnaissance aircraft over Vietnam, and the Vietnamese were very impressed by the idea of a plane without its essential ingredient--may bay khong co nguoi lai. Eventually, the term made its way into colloquial usage, and became a funny way of asking for soup "without the pilot"--or without meat in it.

I know that the proper term for "pilot" would be "phi cong" but "nguoi lai" is the expression I heard in this case.

Has anyone ever heard this expression? And, can anyone confirm for me that there were, in fact, unmanned planes used during the war? The answer may be complicated, and I'd appreciate any information from anyone able to straighten it out.

Thanks,

Dana Sachs

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Dana Sachs

Department of English

University of North Carolina at Wilmington

601 South College Road

Wilmington, NC 28403-3297

910-763-2203

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Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:16:36 -0500

From: "Chung Nguyen" <chung.nguyen@umb.edu

To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>

Subject: Re: soup without the pilot

Hi Dana:

The only thing I can confirm is that it's a phrase popularly used during the hard-scraping years of the war in the North where the scarcity of things reduced life to the most basic subsistence level - as many of my friends told me. The phrase I heard is "pho khong nguoi lai", ie. "a pilotless pho", meaning "pho without meat." I have no information on whether the image originated from the actual flying of American unmanned aircrafts over Vietnam.

Indeed, "phi cong" is the more common term for "pilot" in South VN. During the war years there was a policy in the North to purify the national language, ie. substituting Sino-Vietnamese terms (terms having origins in Chinese) with vernacular Vietnamese. "Phi cong" comes from Chinese (phi = fly; cong = worker). Other examples are: "chien si gai" for "nu chien si", "may bay len thang" for "phi co truc thang," "sung khong giat" for "ba-zo-ca" (bazooka), etc. It could be compared to using "put up with" for "endure" in English, although some attempts did get out of hand, suffered popular ridicule, and eventually disappeared (such as "chien si gai").

The term "pho khong nguoi lai", as I understand it, does not indicate a choice then: for the majority it's the only choice they had at the time, because meat was a rarity. It, and a whole host of other terms like it, were created as a way to deal with extreme hardship by turning adversity into humor. (Interestingly, there is an article today on the Internet Nhan Dan that speaks of this very topic: "Nghe nguoi Vinh Hoang noi trang", "Listen to People from Vinh Hoang village fib," Feb 25, 2000.)

Perhaps, it's only later that when people did have a choice, some might use the term to actually order, conveying another kind of humor.

Nguyen Ba Chung

Joiner Center

From: "D. Hoang" <dieuhien@u.washington.edu>

To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>

Subject: Re: soup without the pilot

Dana,

I've heard of "pho khong nguoi lai" when we lived in Ha Noi. Here's my understanding of the term from a lay person's perspective.

Although "phi cong" is a term for "pilot", it is a Sino-Vietnamese term that would sound awkward in a colloquial saying. To my Vietnamese ears, "pho khong nguoi lai" sounds a lot better, rhythmically and tonally, than "pho khong phi cong", which sounds monotonous.

"Nguoi lai" itself is not an uncommon term to denote the person holding the steering of a vessel. For boats, "lai" is one who steers, and "cheo" is one who paddles. Of course, most small boats in VN are steered and driven by only one person in the back.

Also, in the North, Sino-Vietnamese terms are used less frequently than in the former SVN (ex: "lai' xe" in the North, "ta`i xe^'" in the South, for "driver"). However, "phi cong" was/is used in the North for "pilot", just not in this case.

Hope this helps.

Hien

From: Edwin Moise <eemoise@clemson.edu>

To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>

Subject: Re: soup without the pilot

At 03:13 PM 2/25/00 -0500, you wrote:

>I'm in the midst of fact-checking my research for a book about Hanoi and I

>have a couple of obscure bits of information I'm hoping someone might be

>able to confirm for me.

>

>In 1992, a friend in Hanoi told me that, as a joke, Vietnamese who wanted

>to order "pho" with no meat in it would order "pho khong co nguoi lai"--pho

>without the pilot (or driver). She explained that the term originated

>during the war, when the U.S. sent unmanned reconnaissance aircraft over

>Vietnam, and the Vietnamese were very impressed by the idea of a plane

>without its essential ingredient--may bay khong co nguoi lai.

. . .

>can anyone confirm for me that

>there were, in fact, unmanned planes used during the war?

Yes. They were jet aircraft, much smaller (about 29 feet long) than the normal jets that had pilots. The United States used them quite often, beginning I think in late 1964. Most of the missions were to take low-level photographs of North Vietnam, though there were some missions in other parts of Southeast Asia. The main reason for using them was to avoid risking a pilot at low altitude in areas with strong anti-aircraft defenses. Their small size also made them difficult targets for anti-aircraft gunners to hit, and made them a lot cheaper to replace, if shot down, than piloted aircraft.

Of the years for which I have statistics, the highest figures are from 1972. In that year there were 498 missions by pilotless reconnaissance aircraft in Southeast Asia. The aircraft was recovered safely in 446 missions; the other 52 aircraft were lost.

Ed Moise

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 18:06:45 -0800 (PST)

From: dao the duc <daoduc@u.washington.edu>

To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>

Subject: Re: soup without the pilot

Hi Dana,

"Pho khong nguoi lai" was used to call "pho mau dich" (state enterprise's pho), which was very cheap and had no meat. Pho, with meat of course, always exist at "hang pho" (private enterprise). Even when "pho bo" was banned because cattle were protected for agricultural development, we still ate at some "secret" places. The choice was not to order meat or without meat but where to eat, depending on your pocket.

--Duc

Niels Fink Ebbesen wrote:

I've heard exactly the same explanation. Probably, we shall avoid overintepretations of this and other colloquial expressions about food (in any language). "Ngoui lai" is used for drivers ((ngoui) lai xe), captains ((ngoui) lai tau), byers/sellers of cows ((ngoui) lai bo), horses ((ngoui) lai ngua), etc. etc.

There is a popular Vietnamese saying:

Lai tau, lai ngua, lai xe

Ca ba lai ay chang tin lai nao.

(The captain/engine driver, the horse dealer, the driver

These three "lai", do not trust any of them)

PS - Looking forward to information about Dana's book about Hanoi - and, of course, the book!

Niels Fink Ebbesen

DanViet

Christianshavns Voldgade 15

1424 Copenhagen K - Denmark

Tel +45 32 96 56 36

Fax +45 32 96 56 37

E-mail: nfe@danviet.dk or niels.ebbesen@post3.tele.dk

From: "Chung Nguyen" <chung.nguyen@umb.edu>

To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>

Subject: Re: soup without the pilot

Hi Niels:

Indeed "lai" has several meanings. Among them are "drive"/control/steer", a verb as in "lai xe" (drive a car), "lai may bay" (fly a plane), "lai tau" (pilot a ship, drive a train); and "a middle man/a dealer," a noun, as in "lai bo" (cow dealer), "lai trau" (buffalo dealer), "lai vuon" (fruits dealer, or a hick dealer).

An exact translation of "pho khong nguoi lai" would be "pho without someone who drives/flies/steers" for "lai" here takes the position of a verb. At last, as Vietnam does not yet have a comparable O.E.D. where one can trace the exact moment a phrase is born, it'd be difficult to determine its august origin. Only a writer or a journalist who was intimately involved with the pulse of that time could perhaps give us an answer.

One can, however, infer that the term was created after the phrase "may bay khong nguoi lai" (a plane without someone who drives/flies it, ie. An unmanned aircraft) had come into vogue. Before the appearance of unmanned aircraft, there had been no comparably meaningful "khong nguoi lai" term. Also, as "pho khong nguoi lai" is meant to create a chuckle, a smile, the aeronautic image gives it a modern ring, and hence more power.

And if one wants to speculate even further, there is also a well-known phenomenon that by associating something that can cause destruction with something ordinary, amusing, one takes the anxiety out of it. Now, I'll go back to my loonybin !

Yes, by the way, Dana - Could you tell us something about the book on Hanoi ? When do expect it to come out ?

Cheers,

Nguyen Ba Chung

Joiner Center

On Sat, 26 Feb 2000, Dana Sachs wrote:

I want to thank everyone for those quick, amazingly comprehensive replies to my query about "pho khong nguoi lai." The connections between language and history are fascinating, and teach me so much about Vietnamese culture.

My book is (tentatively) called THE HOUSE ON DREAM STREET: AN AMERICAN WOMAN'S LIFE IN HANOI. It's a memoir about my experiences living there off and on in the 1990s, focusing on how individual Hanoians have responded to the enormous changes taking place in their country during that time. It's going to be published by Algonquin Books in September.

By the way, I have a chapter in my book that describes my meeting with an old man who claimed to have pulled John McCain from the lake. He wanted me to set up a reunion between him and the senator. I tried, but McCain wasn't interested. According to one of his aides, that day in the lake was the worst day in the senator's life, and he'd like to put it behind him. Later, I found out that McCain hears with some regularity from Vietnamese claiming to have pulled him from the lake, people who want to meet him or want some reward. Given that fact, I began to understand why he didn't want to get involved again. But now Diane mentions McCain giving someone a medal. Does that mean that one particular guy who "saved" him has been identified already?

Best,

Dana Sachs

From: Sinh Vinh <sinh.vinh@ualberta.ca>

To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>

Subject: Re: pilotless soup and pilots

Dear Dana and all:

It is interesting to note in the late 1970s and early 1980s, the term "khong [co] nguoi lai" (or "khong tay la'i") was also used in another context.

During that period of time, the folks in the South loved to tell each other that many northern cadres (ca'n-bo^.) when going South would love to purchase "ddo^(grave)ng-ho^(grave) kho^ng co' ngu+o+(grave)i la'i" ("pilotless watch"/"watch without a winding crown", i.e. "automatic watch"), particularly those "dong-ho co' cu+?a so^?" ("watches with windows", i.e. watches with the date indicator [box]). In other words, the most preferred watches were "dong-ho khong [co] nguoi lai, nhu+ng co cua so!". "Dong-ho co nguoi lai" ("watches with a pilot" implies "watches which one has to wind manually".

"Dong-ho khong co nguoi lai" ranked top among the most popular 4-D. Rumour has it that the other popular 3-D were: "dda(grave)i" (transistor radios), "dde(grave)n pin" (flashlights), and "dda.p", standing for "xe dda.p" (bicycles).

One might note that the terms "dong ho khong co nguoi lai", "dong ho co nguoi lai", "dong ho co cua so", etc. -- as used in the South during that time -- carried certain satirical connotation. These terms have become obsolete words, however, around the mid-1980s.

Cheers,

VINH Sinh

From: "Chung Nguyen" <chung.nguyen@umb.edu>

To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>

Subject: The House on Dreams Street: Forerunner of books to come ?

Dana Sachs wrote:

> My book is (tentatively) called THE HOUSE ON DREAM STREET: AN AMERICAN

> WOMAN'S LIFE IN HANOI. It's a memoir about my experiences living there off

> and on in the 1990s, focusing on how individual Hanoians have responded to

> the enormous changes taking place in their country during that time. It's

> going to be published by Algonquin Books in September.

Hi Dana:

Congratulations ! Yours is the second book I know of that comes from a civilian's take of life in Vietnam, uncoupled from the more traditional genre often top heavy with war-related or reporter-related subjects. The first is Edith Shillue's "Earth and Water" published by University of Massachusetts Press in 1999. It's about Ms. Shillue's experiences teaching English to students in Vietnam, both in city and remote rural areas.

I wonder if there are others that I am not aware of ? I think this is a good trend, and hope there would be more books of this genre. Vietnam is finally experienced as just a country struggling with all its past baggages to enter the modern age, sometimes well, sometimes not well at all. But struggle she certainly does.

Cheers,

Nguyen Ba Chung

From: "Chung Nguyen" <chung.nguyen@umb.edu>

To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>

Subject: pilotless soup and pilots - summary notes

Hi Dana and all:

After having some time reading all the responses to Dana's request, I come to understand the issues a bit better. Let me try to tally up the answers as clearly as I can, esp. for those who do not speak Vietnamese in this forum.

Dana's question is the what, when, and why of the term "pho khong nguoi lai" ("pho" without a pilot, ie. without meat).

1. The question of choice: Every "pho" (a favorite beef broth/soup of Vietnam) stalls expects to sell "pho" with some kind of beef (or for some, chicken broth with chicken) in it. No one orders "pho" without beef: it is NOT a normal occurrence. It would be like ordering a bowl of beef soup in the U.S., but asking the cook to remove all the beef in it (1).

Also, as the broth itself is cooked with beef bones, the removal of meat would not turn "pho" into a vegetarian dish. Hence, "pho khong nguoi lai" (pho without meat), never indicates a "choice". If people put up with "pho khong nguoi lai" it was because beef wasn't available due to scarcity (and at the few stalls where it might be available, the price was beyond their pocket).

2. The origin of the term "pho khong nguoi lai": "khong nguoi lai" means, literally, "without someone [to] drive/steer/fly [it]". There is no evidence that this term was ever used in popular discourse in Vietnam before the appearance of the term "may bay khong nguoi lai" (a plane without someone to drive/steer/fly [it]."

As no vehicle - a car, a train, a bus, a ship, etc. can move "without someone [to] drive/steer/fly" [it], the term "khong nguoi lai" would have made no sense. Only when unmanned aircraft appeared in the sky of North Vietnam (starting in 1964, as Prof. Edwin Moise points out), and hence the newly-minted term (it could have been translated earlier in some obscure articles) "may bay khong nguoi lai" entered into common currency, that the incongruous and otherwise nonsensical term "khong nguoi lai" caught on.

It's therefore likely that from the now widely-known term "may bay khong nguoi lai," the "pho khong nguoi lai" came into vogue. Socio-linguists and psycho-linguists could have a field day with the implications behind the hidden meanings of such a construction. Its very incongruity and the intensely topical nature of its reference alone would have made it a favorite coinage (2).

Later on, after 75, another "khong nguoi lai" coinage appeared: "dong ho khong nguoi lai", ie. a handless/pilotless or digital watch.

3. "Khong nguoi lai" versus "phi cong"

"Phi cong" is a Sino-Vietnamese term for a pilot. It's true as Hoang Dieu Hien points out that had "phi cong" been an equal choice, the term "may bay khong phi cong" would not sound attractive. It uses a Sino-Vietnamese word ("phi cong") to qualify a vernacular Vietnamese ("may bay"), which is the reverse of normal construction. Aside from its powerful topical reference, "may bay khong nguoi lai" is all vernacular Vietnamese, and together sounds much smoother. (By the way, does anybody know what the corresponding term for unmanned aircraft used in pre-75 SVN is?

"Phi co tu dong, phi co tu phi, phi co dieu khien tu xa" ?)

It's, however, also true that during the war years there was a policy in the North to reduce the large number of Sino-Vietnamese words in the Vietnamese language by substituting them with equivalent or newly-minted words in vernacular Vietnamese. For examples, "chien sy gai" for "nu chien si", "may bay len thang" for "phi co truc thang", "tau ngam" for "tiem thuy dinh", "lai xe" for "tai xe", "linh thuy" for "thuy quan", etc. Western words were also frowned on ("ba-zo-ca" (bazooka) was replaced by "sung khong giat/zat" (SKZ)).

Though that policy is no longer strongly promoted, we can still see its lasting influence in the dominance of vernacular words in contemporary Vietnamese poetry and prose, or the insistent avoidance of foreign names by substituting them with their equivalences in Vietnamese pronunciation (Me-hi-co for Mexico, Sech-pia for Shakespear, etc.). The intention was to create a culture for the mass, not for the Western-educated elite (3).

Cheers,

Nguyen Ba Chung

(1)The only case this could happen is when a parent orders a small bowl of "who" for a child. As the meat could be too tough for small children, a small bowl of "pho" with just the broth and the tender rice noodle would be most appropriate.

(2) For those interested in this aspect of the languages, the article "Nghe Nguoi Vinh Hoang 'noi trang'", "Listen to people from Vinh Hoang village 'exaggerate/fib'" by Nguyen The Thinh (Thanh Nien newspaper) posted on the Internet Nhan Dan on Feb 25, 2000, might be useful. It tells the story of the people of Vinh Hoang village. Living in one of the poorest regions of Vietnam, they faced their poverty and misfortunes with humor by creating a sub-language all of their own. An example: "Have you eaten yet ?" - "Yes, I have - two days ago."

(3) The tide has also turned somewhat on this issue: now Sino-Vietnamese words could be used when appropriate, ie. when its choice would enhance either the tone, the meaning or the flow of the writing. Western words also re-appear here and there, esp. when their Vietnamese equivalence looks so obscure that those unfamiliar with its usage cannot figure what foreign term it refers to ! A sign of the time: global integration has its own subtle persuasion.

From: "Hue Tam H. Tai" <hhtai@fas.harvard.edu>

To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>

Subject: Re: pilotless soup and pilots - summary notes

My two cents' worth (and it's worth only that much) on the pho khong co nguoi lai: Chung's idea of noi trang alerts us to another aspect of the term: lai rhymes with tai, which is the most common type of pho served (pho tai); if one were to use the Sino-Vietnamese (and Southe Vietnamese) term for pilot, one would have to say pho vo phi cong, or pho khong co phi cong; the first version sounds odd, the second sounds better but does not hint so clearly at the lack of tai (beef).

Hue-Tam Ho Tai