More on the Good Life!

On Feb 14, 2018, at 2:24 PM, Joe Berry <joetracyberry@gmail.com> wrote:

Charles,

I want to thank you for posting it and for starting this discussion. Many of us have come to believe that a measure of “development” which only looks at GDP per capita is wrong on many fronts, not the least of which is that it assumes economic growth as the main goal. This is clearly not sustainable for the planet or for most people. We should also remember when questioning VN Government stats (as we should) that US government stats are far from totally trustworthy as well. A look at how the unemployment rate has been manipulated over the last 50 years is just one example. Also, in many countries, like Viet Nam, increasing the GNP per capita may actually be linked with worse living conditions for many, even most, rural people if it also occurs at the same time that traditional sources of subsistence (non-commercial peasant farming, barter, etc.) are being undermined. In this way “less poverty” can actually mean more suffering and an objectively lower quality of life for many folks. This is not just true of VN, of course.

Again, thank for starting this discussion and I look forward to reading further contributions to this thread.

Joe Berry

_______________________

Joe Berry

510-527-5889 phone/fax landline

21 San Mateo Road, Berkeley, CA 94707

cell-510-999-0751

In Vermont-802-380-019

in Viet Nam- +84 016 824 04310

Skype: joeberry1948

On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 9:21 PM, Charles Waugh <charles.waugh@usu.edu> wrote:

Thanks, Joe!

Greg Nagle just posted the Conversation version of the article too, which--if folks aren’t familiar with that publication—takes academic articles, reframes them for a general audience, and then gets them in lots of small town newspapers in the US through syndication. Something in that version struck me as relevant to your connecting this conversation back to the US, Joe: "Interestingly, the relationship between resource use and social performance is almost always a curve with diminishing returns. This curve has a “turning point”, after which using even more resources adds almost nothing to human well-being. Wealthy nations, including the US and UK, are well past the turning point, which means they could substantially reduce the amount of carbon emitted or materials consumed with no loss of well-being. This would in turn free up ecological space for many poorer countries, where an increase in resource use would contribute much more to a good life.”

I like that the author is trying again to get us to rethink development as something that has to have a necessary component in countries like the US. We can’t just “do development” in “developing” nations. We need to also change business as usual in “developed” countries if we are all going to keep living on this finite earth.

Thanks for this discussion, everyone!

Chúc Mừng Năm Mới!

Charles Waugh

Utah State University

On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 9:24 PM, Greg Nagle <gnagle2000@gmail.com> wrote:

Here is a link which allows you to compare the data for different countries.

These data are open to interpretation and dispute of course.

https://goodlife.leeds.ac.uk/countries/#Canada

And the data for Vietnam.

https://goodlife.leeds.ac.uk/countries/#Vietnam

On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 5:46 AM, Deo Huu <deochienhuu@gmail.com> wrote:

It's very nice that people spent a lot of money on a project to design and build a marvelous and unique aircraft that could take a single human being up and fly in stages around the world on solar power. That has zero connection with the capacity to fly large numbers of people and many tons of freight anywhere. Nor will anyone be launching satellites with solar power. Yes, there are now cars and even trucks running on batteries, although there are some limits on range and it takes a lot longer to recharge a battery than to fill a gas tank. Certainly trains and trolleys have been running on electricity for many years. But the electricity has to come from somewhere, and solar power grids have to have full backup somewhere for when it's night or overcast or stormy.

Again, exploring the practical use of alternate energy sources on the one hand and using power more efficiently on the other are critical things for the future of humanity. But there will always be the need for liquid fuels, they are the most energy dense and convenient source of power. If nuclear power takes off, and best of all someday fusion power is developed, then the need for other sources will decline. We can all hope for such progress.

I apologize for again addressing a subject that has no real connection with VSG's central purpose, but as others insist on promoting ideas that are somewhat past optimistic about what can be done with alternate energy sources, some insertion of other ideas seems only reasonable.

R J Del Vecchio

Independent Researcher

On Fri, Mar 9, 2018 at 11:03 AM, David Brown <nworbd@gmail.com> wrote:

Coming back to VSG after being locked out of my gmail account for six weeks by Google robots who decided that I am a Vietnamese hacker, it was a pleasure to find this thread. Good robust discussion about an important, contemporary challenge facing Vietnam. The scores posted for Vietnam in the sustainability study don't pass the laugh test, of course; they are based on old and often dubious data. (A case in point: Vietnam is credited with 99 percent of the working age population "'employed.''). Most problematic, I think, is that in the last decade, at least -- the decade not covered by the data -- 'development' has regularly trumped environmental protection and, as some posters have already pointed out, the regime is imperfectly responsive to protest over the degradation of the environment. This may be changing. Vietnam's new middle class has a stake in livable cities and doesn't hesitate to speak up.

David Brown

erstwhile US diplomat

unaffiliated writer/analyst

---------- Forwarded message ----------

From: Greg Nagle <gnagle2000@gmail.com>

To: David Brown <nworbd@gmail.com>

Cc: VSG <vsg@u.washington.edu>

Bcc:

Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 01:21:06 +0000

Subject: Re: [Vsg] Vietnam leads world in "delivering the good life in a sustainable way"

Before most of us segue into a litany of current environmental woes in Vietnam, I hope to push this dialogue into consideration of how Vietnam has progressed on some enviro issues. I know a few but hope to first nudge others into revealing what they know.

I know that accessing reliable recent data on enviro issues is difficult and prone to error. And hard to assess some things.

But before waving a happy flag, ,here is one thing really bothering me since I am now in Laos next to the largest hydroelectric reservoir in Indochina.

It looks like hell, salvaged to an extent I suppose by the fact that is is flanked on the east with the largest protected natural area in Laos at 325,000 ha. I regret I have not yet seen their elephants. But that riverine habitat on the Nam Theun river must have been something to see 20 years ago before the dam, And much of the Mekong tributaries have also had dams with more to come, funded most recently by the Chinese who get the hydro power for 20 years>

Ever taken the river boat upstream on the Mekong from Luang Prabang? Better do it while still time since they are talking about another large dam at Pak Beng.

Non coal power in Vietnam is almost all from hydroelectric. The entire reach of the Black River upstream of Hao Binh to the Chinese border is now in hydro reservoirs.

I can't easily find a link to a map showing the location of several hundred Viet hydro dams but the impacts in aquatic and riparian habitat have been considerable>

Not a happy thought.

Enough on that, we can talk now about other areas of progress.

Greg Nagle

PhD forest and watershed science

Hanoi

Dear Greg,

"Non coal power in Vietnam is almost all from hydroelectric. The entire reach of the Black River upstream of Hao Binh to the Chinese border is now in hydro reservoirs."

Could it be that you mean North of Vietnam power capacity consist mainly of Coal and Hydro? Vietcombank 2016 Energy Report confirms this finding. Attached this email and see below charts.

However, looking across of Vietnam, we see from pie chart that Gas and Others are around 25%.

The report further shows hydro will be a lot less percentage wise in the future. This suggest hydro is at full capacity already, there are only that many rivers and dams. Even hydro power plant companies are now investing money in other forms of energy. I cant name that energy source for fear of incurring community wrath here :)

---------- Forwarded message ----------

From: Greg Nagle <gnagle2000@gmail.com>

To: "kietygory@gmail.com" <kietygory@gmail.com>

Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>

Bcc:

Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 03:00:59 +0000

Subject: Re: [Vsg] Vietnam leads world in "delivering the good life in a sustainable way"

Excellent, thanks, real data, I had not understood the importance of gas generators for power in the south.

What are the actual prospects for wind and solar? Some coastal areas have plenty of wind but I do not see many areas in the north suitable for large scale solar.

I thought Vietnam had abandoned their nuclear plans?

I am perturbed by nuclear but as with many others, am open to a discussion of new, safer reactor designs.

Perhaps I also believe in the easter bunny but, worth a thought.

greg

---------- Forwarded message ----------

From: Tim Gorman <tmg56@cornell.edu>

To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>

Cc:

Bcc:

Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 03:51:18 +0000

Subject: Re: [Vsg] Vietnam leads world in "delivering the good life in a sustainable way"

Hi all,

Appreciate the factually-grounded discussion of energy issues in Vietnam. I just wanted to weigh with few questions/comments and see if others on the list were well-positioned to address them.

1) Are the proposed nuclear plants in Ninh Thuan really and truly dead? And if so, are there any serious proposals to build nuclear plants elsewhere in VN?

2) When I was doing fieldwork in the Mekong Delta a few years back, I heard talk of new coal-burning plants being planned for Tra Vinh and Soc Trang. It seems from a quick scan of the internet that those are well underway and/or operational. Is this shifting overall power consumption in the south towards, rather than away from, coal and away from alternatives like gas? That is, in the pie charts that kietygory@gmail.com (name/affiliation?) shared, might the small slice for coal in the south look a little bigger the next time they're updated?

3) While in the region, I also had a chance to gaze in wonder at the windfarm that had been erected off the coast of Bac Lieu. Seems from a quick scan of the internets again that there are more planned for Soc Trang and Ca Mau. Are these still basically demonstrators and pilot projects, or is there a chance that wind is going to be a significant contributor to the energy mix, at least in the south, anytime soon?

So there - there's a potential bright spot for those who refuse to believe in the easter bunny (or for that matter, solar-powered 747s, but I really and sincerely do not want to steer the conversation back to that well-trodden subject).

Cheers,

Tim

----

Timothy Gorman

Ph.D. Candidate

Department of Development Sociology, Cornell University

Email: tmg56@cornell.edu

US Tel: (+1) 607-216-9845

Website: www.cornell.academia.edu/TimothyGorman

---------- Forwarded message ----------

From: "kietygory@gmail.com" <kietygory@gmail.com>

To: "vsg@u.washington.edu" <vsg@u.washington.edu>, "gnagle2000@gmail.com" <gnagle2000@gmail.com>, "tmg56@cornell.edu" <tmg56@cornell.edu>

Cc:

Bcc:

Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2018 04:49:33 +0000

Subject: Re: [Vsg] Vietnam leads world in "delivering the good life in a sustainable way"

Hi Greg, Tim and all,

@Greg:

Gas: there is a huge gas deposit outside south vietnam coast. Google for "Vietnam Block B Gas Development". This can power the whole of Mekong Delta for years. But +25 platforms development will take some time. Also, in oil and gas price uncertainty environment and major new papers and companies around the world shifting their investment away from fossil to renewable, the question is if its too risky bet to place such investment in +25 platforms. Norway 1 trillion fund as biggest example of the shift.

Wind/ Solar - will happily send you separate email, today or tomorrow, this already been discussed at length in VSG. Anyone else want in on this loop, plz email us privately.

Nuclear plans: already cancelled by Vietnam government vote some time back. No future plans to build nuclear.

@ Tim,

Shifting Coal Consumption: Yes, according to Vietcombank report, today we consume 35% coal, by 2025 we will consume 55% coal. The new coal energy will come from new coal plants, most of them near Saigon and in Mekong Delta :(. (Refer to last line of page 1 of the report).

Name/ affiliation - sorry for omission. Below are my details. We are a solar energy startup company in HCMC since 2017. Before that I have worked in energy sector for the past 8 years in Vung Tau/ Singapore/ Norway.

MVH - Kiet D. Tran

Owner/ CEO/ Solar Engineer

Phone: 0988 059 012

Email: kiet.d.tran@nordicsolarenergy.com

Công Ty Tnhh Năng Lượng Mặt Trời Bắc Âu