etymology & change in usage: cơ quan chức năng, quyền lợi (quyền vs. lợi ích)
jeekim at fas.harvard.edu jeekim at fas.harvard.edu
Mon Jun 25 21:06:01 PDT 2007
Dear list members,
I would like to request your collective wisdom in understanding a few terms:
"cơ quan chức năng"
"quyền lợi" or "quyền" or "lợi ích"
I am interested in these terms in the context of industrial relations, but their
usage in other contexts will be of great help as well.
I wonder specifically whether "cơ quan chức năng" has changed in its meaning
over time to exclude mass organizations such as the Vietnam General
Confederation of Labor. Newspaper articles in the early 1990s seem to include
the VGCL organizations.
For example, a Nguoi Lao Dong article on April 6, 1992 has a sentence:
"Các cuộc tranh chấp trên đây [meaning tranh chấp lao động, đình công] đã được các cơ quan chức năng là Sở LDTBXH va Liên đoàn Lao động TP đến tìm hiểu, hòa giảii."
I wonder if this is still the case, in popular understanding of this term and in
the self-perception of state officials, including officials of mass
organizations.
Another term is "quyền lợi":
- How to understand this term, in contradistinction to the terms "quyền" and
"lợi ích"?
- How to translate this term?
- Has this word been used more often in its compound form "quyen loi" or in its
separate components, meaning "quyền" and "lợi ích"?
- Has the term "quyền" taken on any legal connotation in popular understanding?
Or is it simply flexible enough to include rights of all sorts?
I would very much appreciate any insight into the historical and contemporary
usage and understanding of these terms. If you could suggest some sources,
that'd be great as well.
Many thanks in advance!
Jee Young Kim
Ph.d. candidate
Sociology
Harvard University
Hue-Tam Ho Tai hhtai at fas.harvard.edu
Mon Jun 25 21:28:18 PDT 2007
Jee Young:
"quyền lợi" is one of those neologisms created in Japan and introduced
in China and Vietnam. The standard translation is "interest" as in "bao
ve quyen loi."
As for "cơ quan chức năng" I would imagine that it means "relevant
agencies" in the sense that the agencies have the authority to deal
with this particular issue. Someone else may amend this. Whether the
definition of "relevant agencies" has changed over time to exclude some
organizations is something other VSG posters may know more than I.
Hue-Tam
Adam adam at aduki.com.au
Mon Jun 25 22:26:02 PDT 2007
In my own experience there are interesting differences between "quyền lợi"
and 'lợi ích', with the former related to rights/power over / regarding
interests, and the latter not.
And I am very chary about using 'authority' with reference to current formal
political / state practices in Vietnam, as the term 'quyền uy' seems to me
very rarely used. Thaveeporn once told me that this was to do with the view
that power could not be divided. But once can talk about the formation of
'sovereignty' (chủ quyền), and so the sense that some aspects of power are
lacking. Thus translating 'chính quyền' as local authority is confusing
also. Local power? In English the term implies a delegation of authority
from the sovereign, as well as a legitimate local power. "You can have power
without authority but you cannot have authority without power" to quote Lord
Acton.
I find the terms that place some 'adjectival' before 'quyen' far easier to
cope with than those that do not. These refer to types of 'power'' given the
origins of 'quyền' in I understand it the word for 'fist'. Thus 'tham
quyen', 'chu quyen', 'nhan quyen' ... Thus 'quyen uy' as authority I find
confusing. Does anybody know a Chinese term that renders authority with an
'adjectival' before 'quyền'?
This is why 'cơ quan chức năng' is used - it refers to 'function', not
'authority', thus avoiding the issue. 'Agency with proper authority' would
perhaps be rendered as 'co quan duoc uy quyen day du', which would make
sense to some but would never be used in current state practice.
Much of this reflects the stage, if you like, of development of the
Vietnamese state and the ongoing weakness of central government and so its
lack of 'chủ quyền'. Phép TW Đảng thu lệ chi bộ xã/ Đảng ủy huyện/ tỉnh'.
Or at least that is what I think.
Adam
tonthat at homemail.com.au tonthat at homemail.com.au
Tue Jun 26 02:55:26 PDT 2007
Hi Adam,
The term quyen carries two major meanings:
quyền = power (as in quyền lực, and
quyền = rights as in nhân quyền
Thus while the good Lord Acton may have said
> "You can have power
> without authority but you cannot have authority without power"
this reading of the two principal semantic components of the term quyền
in Vietnamese suggests that to have rights (quyền), you must also have
the power (quyền) to exercise those rights.
How right!!!
Cheers
Du
Adam at UoM fforde at unimelb.edu.au
Tue Jun 26 03:16:50 PDT 2007
In this reading, 'nhan quyen' is simply a type of quyen. Other types are chu
quyen, tham quyen and so on. Rendering this into English in the ways you
suggest seems to me very confusing.
Quyen by itself does not easily align in use to use of the English term
'right'. So how would you expect to see rendered 'you have the right but not
the power' ? Anh có quyền nhưng không có quyền lực? Hardly. Anh có lý nhưng không có điều kiện, maybe - 'The right is with you but to no avail'.
To be honest I think I would say 'Anh co quyen' to suggest that you have the
right, but then 'không có lực' to avoid the tensions you so wittily point
to. But who knows?
If 'quyen' refers originally to a 'fist', an act driven by an agent, or a
group, then it seem to my mind easier to see what is going on. 'Nhân quyền'
is the fist of a man, specifically a 'nhan', and so implies that this is
real and proper. Thus it seems a little like what Westerner mean by human
rights. 'Chủ quyền' is a fist that has, indeed, a chu - and it may not.
What different sorts of 'lực' are there? Quyen luc is a luc that has a fist
... Năng lực is a "lực" that has "năng", therefore innate, potential ... What
others can you think of?
Ho hum
All these things I think are changing, also
Cheers
Adam
dan hoang hoangdanlieu at yahoo.com
Tue Jun 26 00:51:36 PDT 2007
Do you have a Vietnmese dictionary? ( I use VN dictionary edited by Hoang Phe, Nha xuat ban Khoa hoc xa hoi -Trung tam tu dien hoc (Soical sciencies - Center for dictionaries Publisher) - 1994
In this dictionary quyền lợi is explained as follow: quyền được hưởng những lợi ích nào đó về vật chất, tinh thần, chính trị, xã hội, v.v. and this word is translated into English: interests (Please look at LACVIET MTD 2002 dictionary)
Lợi ích: benefits
Quyền lực: quyền định đoạt mọi công việc quan trọng về mặt chính trị và sức mạnh để đảm bảo việc thực hiện quyền ấy.(Power)
Cơ quan chức năng: cơ quan quản lí thống nhất từng lĩnh vực hoạt động của nhà nước (The organization which manages a particular field on the State or Government assigment such as:ministries)
Cơ quan chức năng is similar to Cơ quan hành chính in someway.
Here are also some explanations in Wikipedia:
Organization – functional: organization as a function of how entities like businesses or state authorities are used (organization as a permanent structure).
Organization – institutional: an entity is an organization (organization as an actual purposeful structure within a social context)
I hope these findings can help you.
Lieu