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From: Paul Sager <paul.sager@nyu.edu>
Date: Feb 18, 2006 10:17 AM
Subject: [Vsg] The word "th?c dân"
Dear VSG,
Can anyone enlighten me about the origin and meaning of the compound word th?c dân ? My
dictionary (Bùi Ph?ng) translates th?c dân as "colonial," "colonize," "colonization," etc.
Hue-Tam Ho Tai says the phrase ch? ?? th?c dân means "people-eating system" (Radicalism and
the Origins of the Vietnamese Revolution, p. 2). Does th?c dân really (originally or
figuratively or homonymously) mean "people eating"? I couldn't find th?c as "eating,"
although th?c bào means "phagocytic" and th?c ??o means "alimentary canal" and th?c d?n
means "menu." When did the term th?c dân come to mean "colonize"? Does it predate the
European presence ? Is it an old Chinese term?
Thanks
From: will pore <willpore@gmail.com>
Date: Feb 18, 2006 2:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Let me rephrase that: The word "thu'.c da^n"
Dear Paul and List:
There are two different initial Chinese characters that have been used for
colony/colonization in Korea (where they are pronounced shik or ch'i) and Japan (both
pronounced shoku). In Vietnam, these two characters are alike pronounced 'thu'c' (dou sach).
The ancient meaning of either (to plant or to establish/protect/pacify) apparently has been
deemed adequate to use either interchangeably in the term for colony, etc. in all three
countries. While both of these initial characters appeared in Chinese texts very early
("Shijing" or before, i.e. 5-4 th century BCE), 'thuc dan' is a neologism put into
currency by Japanese usage of two characers chosen to convey the meaning of a people
"placed" under control. Chinese 'min' (Vietnamese 'dan') of course, is ancient. The
pronunciation of either initial character pronounced 'thu'c' in Vietnamese in the same tone
as the character and word for eat in Vietnamese hass led to the word play. The etymological
Chinese dictionaries such as the "Ziyuan" and "Cihai" do not show a first usage of the term
for colony ('zhimindi'). The use of either initial character for colony in combination with
'dan' ('min') could be read 'thu'c dan' in Vietnamese. The Chinese etymological dictionaries
only explain the meaning of the term along lines that fit the Western understanding of
colony.
Will Pore
From: Paul Sager <paul.sager@nyu.edu>
Date: Feb 20, 2006 6:24 AM
Subject: [Vsg] RE: The word "thu'.c da^n"
Dear Will,
Thanks very much for that. The only thing not clear to me is whether you mean "thu'.c da^n"
actually derives from a Japanese neologism (I assume from the 19th century?). Could you
clarify that? Do you have any idea in approximately what time period the Japanese usage
influenced the Vietnamese ?
Paul
From: will pore <willpore@gmail.com>
Date: Feb 20, 2006 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] RE: The word "thu'.c da^n"
Paul,
Not a linguist who has studied the exact progress of Western terms devised for usage in
Japanese , I would only venture that it appeared in Vietnamese around 1905, when Phan Boi
Chau and the students from Vietnam started going to Japan to study. But, look at Lydia Liu's
"Translingual Practice," which exhaustively lists the borrowings and coinages devised for
Japanese and Chinese usage in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
From: Lien Huong Fiedler <lfie@loc.gov>
Date: Feb 22, 2006 6:16 AM
Subject: [Vsg] RE: The word "thu'.c da^n"
Dear Paul and List,
Here is another opinion to support Will Pore's definition of THUC DAN. This attachment was
provided by a Vietnamese scholar.
Thanks,
Lien Huong
From: will pore <willpore@gmail.com>
Date: Feb 22, 2006 8:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] RE: The word "thu'.c da^n"
Dear Lien,
Thank you for that additional, interesting reference. The Chinese character in your
attachment is the one in use in Korean dictionaries, but also known to Japanese. Chinese
dictionaries more frequently use another character (Matthews 1008) to translate colony,
etc., which has the (original) meaning of establish, enhance, expand. That character is
sometimes found in Japanese dictionaries for colony. But, except for Korean etymological
dictionaries like the 'Okp'yon,' the latter one isn't used for colony in Korean
dictionaries. That may have something to do with Korean "nationalism" in a way that hasn't
affected Vietnamese usage.
From: David Marr <dgm405@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Date: Feb 22, 2006 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] RE: The word "thu'.c da^n"
It's good to see etymology being taken seriously on the VSG list, if only in regard to one
word. When will someone commit to researching and publishing a Vietnamese etymological
dictionary?
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