Questions about modern religions
From: William Noseworthy <wnosewor@gmail.com>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 11:57 PM
Hello again!
Yet another random question. Does anyone know where I can find reliable statistics on religious participation by proportion of the population of Viet Nam?
I am looking for numbers of various Christian Groups, Catholics and Protestants, Mahayanna and Theravada Buddhist, Hoa Hoa, Cao Dai, Islam, and Confucianism (?), and maybe statistics on religious participation as a whole. If anyone has any interesting notes about which religions are more popular with ethnic minorities that would also be appreciated.
Cheers,
Billy Noseworthy
B.A. Oberlin '07
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From: Maxner, Steve <steve.maxner@ttu.edu>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 6:31 AM
Bill:
While it does not break down in as much detail as you indicate, the following is from the CIA World Factbook.
Religions: Buddhist 9.3%, Catholic 6.7%, Hoa Hao 1.5%, Cao Dai 1.1%, Protestant 0.5%, Muslim 0.1%, none 80.8% (1999 census)
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/vm.html#People
It seems to me that the “none” category throws into question the whole set of numbers and I suspect that the bulk of that percentage are Buddhists – based on pre-war information. As these numbers were provided by the Vietnamese Census of 1999, it makes any official statistics about religion in Vietnam of dubious reliability.
Also, my understanding is that a sizable percentage of the ethnic minorities in Vietnam (at least those south of the Hue) are Protestant Christian, in rather striking disproportion to the rest of Vietnamese society. I believe that this is due, in part, to the greater successes enjoyed by Protestant Christian missionaries in the Central Highlands before 1975.
I will be interested in learning what others on the list have found.
Best regards,
Steve
Stephen Maxner, Ph.D.
Director
The Vietnam Center
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From: Peter Hansen <phansen@ourladys.org.au>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 4:48 PM
Sorry, but I can’t help thinking these figures verge on the absurd. 9.3% Buddhist (even allowing for the dissonance between this term and adherence to the tam dao which would more correctly state the religious adherence of the majority? 80.8% have no religion? It seems to me that this can be interpreted in two possible ways.
1. Telling a state can bo at your doorstep administering the census what you presume they want to hear;
2. The survey only provided for religious adherence to fit the registered denominations listed by the Uy Ban Ton Giao. When Steve refers to the majority as ‘Buddhist’, this needs to be teased out a little. Many would profess to having ‘tho to tien’ as their religious affiliation. I interviewed nearly two thousand people in the Asylum seeker centres in Hong Kong and the Philippines in the period 1990-93. Each was asked their religion; ‘tho ong ba’ and ‘tho to tien’ was the most popular response. If this didn’t appear on the census-takers list of possible responses, then they may well have been put down as ‘none of the above’.
The suggestion that four out of every five Vietnamese is irreligious doesn’t even register (not to me, at any rate).
Peter Hansen
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From: Shawn McHale <mchale@gwu.edu>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 7:32 PM
Dear list,
This same source, that lists almost 81 percent of the Vietnamese population as having no religion, also lists 95% of Danes as Evangelical Lutherans and 83-88% of French as Catholic. In fact, France's percentage of Catholics is higher than that of the Philippines, according to this source. ) Such statistical legerdemain leads to the inescapable conclusion that Danes and French are far more passionate in their religious attachments than the Vietnamese.:), and that the French are more Catholic than Filipinos. The idea that France is leading a religious renaissance is, to say the least, odd.
Idiocy of such conclusions aside, perhaps the problem here is that the state thinks in terms of "tôn giáo," the modern term it uses to denote religious affiliation. But the population at large thinks in terms of the traditional term of "đạo" or Way, at least for Daoism, Buddhism, Cao Dai, etc. If the state is searching for affiliation to "tôn giáo," it won't find much.
Shawn McHale
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From: Maxner, Steve <steve.maxner@ttu.edu>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 8:11 PM
Shawn:
If by the term "this same source" you are referring to the CIA World Factbook, then I think your criticism is misplaced. The CIA Factbook simply reports what is available via open sources and uses the census data available from each country. Your criticism of "statistical legerdemain" is better focused on the individual sources of those numbers - i.e. the governments of each respective country. If you don't like the numbers, perhaps you should not "shoot the messenger" and instead should share your disdain with the governments of Vietnam, France, the Philippines, Denmark, etc... After all, these are their numbers, not the CIA's.
Steve
Stephen Maxner, Ph.D.
Director
The Vietnam Center
The Vietnam Archive, Texas Tech University
Special Collections Library Room 108
15th and Detroit
Lubbock, TX 79409-1041
Phone: 806-742-9010
Fax: 806-742-0496
Email: steve.maxner@ttu.edu
Website: www.vietnam.ttu.edu
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From: Mike High <mike.high@earthlink.net>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 8:57 PM
Let's hope that the CIA has something better than its purported "Fact
Book" as actual intelligence about the country!
When I started going to the "Fact Book," I naively thought I was getting
the "real scoop," or at least something that had been verified in some way
by the experts down the road from me in Langley. But after awhile, I began
to realize that it wasn't CIA information at all, just CIA's "brand" applied
to information collected, filtered, and disseminated by others.
Of course, in some cases, the use of non-CIA sources might have some
advantages--the CIA World Fact Book entry on Iraq circa 2002 does not claim
that Iraq had any "Weapons of Mass Destruction."
:: Mike High
Great Falls, Virginia
USA
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From: David Le <david.micah.le@gmail.com>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 9:06 PM
Dear list,
Those figures seem about right, although I had been under the impression that the percentage of people who identify themselves as having no religion was closer to 90%. These numbers seem absurd but shouldn't be disregarded.
First, Mr. Hansen's first point is correct: "ton giao" is a category on the identification papers that all Vietnamese citizens have to carry which should indicate that claiming these affiliations has more significance for the Vietnamese citizenry and government than one might expect.
Second, there are rapidly growing NRM's (new religious movements) like the cult of Tran Hung Dao that the government does not believe qualify as "religions" but rather as "superstition." The government is openly hostile to these "superstitions" forcing their adherents underground and (obviously) preventing any solid numbers on NRMs.
Third, as a cultural question it has been my experience here as a religion researcher in hanoi that people genuinely conceive of religion qua "ton giao" as something that the majority of people do not practice. If you were to measure Vietnamese religion in terms of numbers of household where there was a shrine to the ancestors, where the holidays of the lunar calendar are observed, and where a belief in "ma" or spirits exists, you would have to include the vast majority.
Pham Quynh Phong at the Hanoi national university is doing great work on NRM's and her work addresses the problems of definition for religion, superstition, culture, and tradition. I have her contact info if anyone's interested.
David Le
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From: Stephen Denney <sdenney@ocf.berkeley.edu>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 11:13 PM
Could Peter or anyone else here comment on the estimates from Vietnam's 1999 census, as reported in the CIA Factbook, for Catholics, Protestants, Hoa Hao and Cao Dai? Do they seem significantly lower than the actual number or about right in some cases but not others?:
Catholics: 6.7%
Hoa Hao: 1.5%
Cao Dai: 1.1%
Protestants: .5%
Since the CIA Factbook estimates, as of July 2007, Vietnam's total population at 85,262,356, that would mean there are about 5.7 million Catholics, 1.3 million Hoa Hao, 938,000 Cao Dai and 426,000 Protestants, if Vietnam's 1999 census was correct in listing the percentage of religious believers.
In its annual International Religious Freedom report, the U.S. State Dept. gives these estimates for Vietnam religous believers:
"Some estimates suggested that more than half of the population is at least nominally Buddhist. The Roman Catholic Church comprises 8 to 10 percent, several Cao Dai organizations comprise 1.5 to 3 percent, one Hoa Hao organization 1.5 to 4 percent, two Protestant organizations 0.5 to 2 percent, and one Muslim organization less than 0.1 percent of the population. Most other citizens consider themselves non-religious, although many practice traditional beliefs such as veneration of ancestors and national heroes..."
It goes on to present a more detailed breakdown on various estimates for religious and non-religious individuals. See: http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2007/90159.htm
With regard to Protestant Christians, one problem is that many churches, particularly in the highlands, have not had their registration applications accepted by the government, and therefore it may be more difficult to estimate their overall following. The U.S. State Dept. country report for Human Rights in 2007 says that "in the northern region and the Northwest Highlands, local authorities had not acted on registration applications submitted in 2006 by more than 1,000 Protestant congregations among ethnic minority groups, the Hmong in particular."
see: http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2007/100543.htm
- Steve Denney
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From: Shawn McHale <mchale@gwu.edu>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 3:36 AM
Steve,
I am not sure why you are defending the CIA over the statistics in its CIA Factbook. No, my criticism is NOT "msiplaced." First, one assumes that the CIA believes that it has the responsibility to evaluate information critically, rather than just report what governments tell it. Second, EVEN IF GOVERNMENTS REPORT INFORMATION in good faith, and accurately according to their own criteria, it is obvious that not all governments share the same criteria. The way one government categorizes "engineers," or "religions," or whatever, can be expected to vary widely. Isn't it the task of a "world fact book" to provide some guidance through this difference? Or, if it is to provide statistics gathered according to different criteria, at least to make the effort to explain what those criteria are?
Shawn McHale
Associate Professor of History and International Affairs
George Washington University
Washington, DC 20052 USA
(on leave, 2007-08, at Vietnam National University --
Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam)
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From: Maxner, Steve <steve.maxner@ttu.edu>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 9:52 AM
Shawn:
I am not defending the CIA - just pointing out that your sarcastic criticism of them as the providers of open source statistics is neither legitimate nor helpful. I would have responded the same way had you leveled your misplaced criticism toward the compilers of the World Almanac or the statistics available through the UN - all of whom provide information from the same sources - the countries to whom the numbers apply.
To answer your question - as the name implies, the World "Fact" book is just that, a book of compiled facts. As the CIA defines such things, it is a work of "basic intelligence" and "provides the fundamental and factual reference material on a country or issue." It is not estimative, is not intended to provide critical analysis, and is certainly not intended to discuss the idiosyncratic demographic data collection practices of every country in the world. I am sure they expect all end users of this information (either internally or in the private sector and in academic circles) to do so using their critical faculties.
When I presented this data to VSG, I did so with qualifications. In my initial message I called into question the reliability of the data based on that very number of 80% of Vietnamese as having no religion. I suspect that you and Peter might be correct that this has to do with political issues and the types of questions asked by the government census takers. At the same time, I must admit that I am far less interested in the speculation presented on VSG as to why the number is listed as 80% "no religion" and the notions that, perhaps, this is because the government of Vietnam used one particular expression or another when collecting the census data, etc... I am far more interested in knowing if someone in Vietnam can help us and can ask the appropriate ministry how they collected that data - what question was asked - or perhaps they can tell us what question they themselves were asked as a participant in the census itself. Who knows, maybe they will validate your analysis. But without such factual information, all of this is just spit-balling and not particularly helpful, at least from my estimation.
I also notice that no one else on VSG has provided an alternative source for statistics on religion in Vietnam. Perhaps (I hope) there is one out there. If so, I am very interested in learning about that.
Thanks.
Steve
Stephen Maxner, Ph.D.
Director
The Vietnam Center
The Vietnam Archive, Texas Tech University
Special Collections Library Room 108
15th and Detroit
Lubbock, TX 79409-1041
Phone: 806-742-9010
Fax: 806-742-0496
Email: steve.maxner@ttu.edu
Website: www.vietnam.ttu.edu
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From: Diane Fox <DNFOX@holycross.edu>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 11:09 AM
A couple of possible sources for figures, perhaps: the Institute of Religious Studies at the Vietnam Academy of Social Sciences, and the Vien KHXH vung Nam Bo.
Those of you with direct experience might have more to say about these sources. I only know them from papers on religion presented at the anthro conference in VN in December, several of which were quite interesting. But it might be helpful to hear from people at these institutes.
Diane
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From: Frank <frank.proschan@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 3:08 PM
The data in the CIA Factbook seem to correspond to those resulting from the 1999 Census. The 2009 national Census question # 7 will ask as follows (the 1999 wording of question 6 differs only slightly, but I could more easily find this to cut and paste):
7a. [TÊN] có theo tôn giáo/đạo nào không?
NẾU CÓ: Đó là tôn giáo/đạo gì?
CÓ.............................. I
_________________________
(TÊN TÔN GIÁO)
KHÔNG...................... 2 CII
CÓ.............................. I
_________________________
(TÊN TÔN GIÁO)
KHÔNG...................... 2 CII
7b. NẾU THEO CÁC TÔN GIÁO SAU, HỎI THÊM:
I. PHẬT GIÁO: Đã “Quy y tam bảo chưa?” / Đã được cấp “Sớ điệp” chưa?
2. CÔNG GIÁO: Đã “Chịu phép rửa tội” chưa?
3. TIN LÀNH: Đã “Chịu phép bắp têm” chưa?
4. HỒI GIÁO: Đã làm lễ Xu-nát (nam)/lễ xuống tóc (nữ) chưa?
5. CAO ĐÀI: Đã được cấp “Sớ cầu đạo” chưa?
6. HÒA HẢO: Đã có “Thẻ hội viên”chưa? /Có thờ “Thần Điều” không?
CÓ.......................................... I
KHÔNG.................................. 2
CÓ.......................................... I
KHÔNG.................................. 2
The problem is thus not a linguistic one, as Peter Hansen suggests, between "tôn giáo" and "đạo". Most likely, Vietnamese responding to a Census taker would report information that matches their identity card. Since most people would have received their identity cards at a time when adherence to any religion/way was an impediment to employment and other benefits, many religious practitioners are not so identified on their ID cards, and one can expect that they would report to the census taker the information shown on their ID card, whenever it was made and whatever their religious practices might actually be.
I think on the other hand that David Le's generalization that "the government does not believe [practices such as veneration of Tran Hung Dao] qualify as 'religions' but rather as 'superstition'" is overly broad and reifies a conception of a monolithic "government" that does not in fact exist. Within the Vietnamese government there are many devout practitioners of such religious practices, and many government offices and institutions promoting respect for such practices and their adherents, even if there might remain some government officials who would use old pejoratives like "me tin".
Best regards,
Frank Proschan
37 place Jeanne d'Arc
75013 Paris
FRANCE
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From: Peter Hansen <phansen@ourladys.org.au>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, Apr 3, 2008 at 4:11 PM
Attachments: winmail.dat
Frank's very interesting item actually bears out my earlier contention. The
opportunity to declare oneself from the purpose of the CMND card (which as
Frank rightly points out, flows over into the census) as being of religious
bent is confined to denominational membership of one of a number of
pre-defined denominational categories. This therefore ties the question of
religion to 'membership' or 'belonging' (ironically, rather a western mode
of religious affiliation), rather than 'expressing', 'believing', or
'experiencing', which I suspect is much closer to the majority of Vietnamese
people's religious interaction. With the exception of Christians - Catholic
and Protestant - for whom the question of self-identifying 'membership' is
fairly tightly defined via baptism, the issue of 'membership' or 'belonging'
actually bears little relationship to the nature of religious experience.
(I'm not sure how this pertains to Cao Dai/Hoa Hoa, and how rigourous they
are vis a vis the concept of membership).
Finally, Frank's point concerning reluctance to disclose bears out mine.
Whewther the can bo to whom one is responding is a census take or an ID card
issuer, they're still a can bo, and many would believe that 'no religion' is
the safest thing to tell them.
Regards,
Peter Hansen
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From: Bill Hayton <bill.hayton@bbc.co.uk>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 6:54 PM
But are the official figures for religious affiliation based upon the census data or on registration data from the Government Committee on Religious Affairs? Since the Committee insists that all congregations are registered and that each registered congregation maintains a list of its members the Committee presumably 'knows' the exact number of religious believers in the country - at least in its own terms. Obviously these numbers are an official 'fiction' so would this also help explain the deficiencies in the statistics?
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From: Andrew Wells-Dang <andrewwd@gmail.com>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 6:54 AM
Our friendly Hanoi neighborhood "to truong" dropped by several months
ago to conduct some sort of survey of residents, I think this was part
of a special project not a regular census. Anyway, given that she had
to ask these same questions of hundreds of households and gets little
if any benefit in return, she was going down the list of questions
very rapidly and in some cases answering for us. On "who makes family
decisions?" she answered "the husband, right?" and my wife and I had
to correct her. There was an answer for "both" but we had to ask for
it. Then on the "religion" question, she automatically started to
check off "none," and then we said "actually, Buddhist and Christian."
"What do you mean?" said the to truong. "You can't be both!"
Given that the difference between Tin lanh and Cong giao is not an
easy one for me, I think we ended up answering Buddhist just to not
take up too much more of her time. But maybe this small anecdote sheds
some light on where religious statistics might come from.
Peace,
Andrew Wells-Dang
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