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From: Nhan <nhan@temple.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Classifiers in pre-20th century Vietnamese poetry
Date: January 7, 2017 at 11:09:07 AM PST
To: vsg@u.washington.edu
Dear Anh John,
Thanks. I also note:
The phrases from Bà Huyện Thanh Quan look like today's scene in a restaurant or a market:
ở quầy bán rượu, Ken 5 chai, Huế 4 chai, ...
ở quầy trong góc, phở 4 tô, mì 2 tô, đá 1 tẩy, ...
In this way, the structure looks like đề-thuyết, as if you read from an Excel sheet ;-)
row name, column name, value(+unit)
Cheers,
Nhàn
On 1/7/2017 13:58, John Phan wrote:
Hi Mark, a Cuong, thay Nhan,
Sorry to come late to an interesting conversation. Cuong's list (whipped up like magic!) is illuminating, and I think it supports thay Nhan's idea that this is simply topicalization. Both Vietnamese and Literary Chinese topicalize a great deal, and while the lack of a topic marker like thì in the prose (cf. Cao Xuan Hao 2006, esp. Ch. 1.3) might be somewhat noteworthy, this was not historically obligatory.
Best, John
On Sat, Jan 7, 2017 at 12:05 PM, Mark J. Alves <malves98@yahoo.com> wrote:
Anh Cuong,
You definitely have a persuasive data set (i.e. native versus non-native writer samples) and historical linguistic comparative rationale (i.e. that ancient (Warring States period, etc.) Chinese writings had such noun phrase structures, which those Vietnamese writers were knowledgeable about).
I think I'll follow up in separate emails.
Thanks so much!
Mark
From: NGUYEN Tuan Cuong <cuonghannom@gmail.com>
To: Mark J. Alves <malves98@yahoo.com>
Cc: "nhan@temple.edu" <nhan@temple.edu>; Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>; Judith A. Henchy <judithh@uw.edu>
Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2017 2:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Classifiers in pre-20th century Vietnamese poetry
Dear Mark,
I checked in two prose works: (1) the Thiên Chúa Thánh Giáo Khải Mông 天主聖教啟蒙 - a 17th century translation by Girolamo Maiorica from Western language (Italian or Portugeese?) of a catechism by Robert Bellarmine; and (2) Tân Biên Truyền Kì Mạn Lục Tăng Bổ Giải Âm Tập Chú 新編傳奇漫錄增補解音集註 - a 16th (or 17th, in my opinion) century translation from a work written in Literary Sinitic by Vietnamese writer Nguyễn Dữ/Tự.
I failed to find this phenomenon in (1).
But there are brunches of examples in (2). These are some found in volume one of the four-volume work:
- Nghỉ cắp cái đàn hồ, gảy cung Nam mấy tiếng, ghẹo lòng thu vài lần. (p. 33) [操南宮幾音]
- Mảng tiếng huyện Tiên Du có tiên sinh họ Trần trao nghiệp cho đầy tớ vài trăm người. (p. 48) [授徒數百人]
- Có tướng quỷ vài trăm gióng, cùng reo gọi nhau rằng... (p. 57) [有鬼相數百莗]
- Vả lấy linh đan một hạt trao cho đấy (p. 53) [且以靈丹一粒授之]
- Vốn ta tên chữ là Quân Phòng, hoặc có sự gấp, chỉn đốt hương một nén, lấy tên chữ mà gọi đấy. Ta đến cũng một chốc trợ vậy. (p. 55)
- Xảy thấy xe mây một lượng, nương trên không dừng đỗ. (p. 57).
- Bệnh gió khôn trợ, mặt hoa dễ héo, hồn thơm một tấm lại phiêu bá đến nhà ai vậy. (p. 73)
- Bằng có gió dữ một trận quét đất mà lại, ấy chúng thiếp chưng thửa bỏ mình. (p. 75)
- Viết bùa ba đạo: Một đạo đóng chưng bên cây. Một đạo dìm chưng giữa sông. Một đạo thời đương trên không hóa đốt. (p. 42)
- Thấy trai gái hai người truồng lõa đuổi nhau, đùa cười hơn một giờ. (p. 42)
- Vua Thượng Đế khen mày, cho lấy con trai lại, thêm tuổi sống hai kỉ, khá sớm lại về, năng sức làm âm đức. (p. 46)
...
(see: http://lib.nomfoundation.org/collection/1/volume/77/page/1; so sorry I do not type all the original texts in Chinese)
If the truth is that you could find this phenomenon in a prose translation from Literary Sinitic, or in some poetry (not a translation) by someone (Nguyễn Trãi) who is good at Literary Sinitic; and that you fail to find in some translation from Western language by someone (Girolamo Maiorica) who may not be aware of (or at least not good at) Literary Sinitic; is that enough to say that the reason for the post-nominal position of number+classifiers might not be the need for rhymes, but must be the influences from Literary Sinitic?
Best,
Cuong
Nguyễn Tuấn Cường, PhD., Researcher.
(阮俊强, グエン・ﾄゥアン・クオン)
Director of the Institute of Sino-Nom Studies (at VASS)
Part-time Lecturer at Vietnam National University, Hanoi (VNU-USSH)
On Sat, Jan 7, 2017 at 8:01 AM, Mark J. Alves <malves98@yahoo.com> wrote:
Anh Cường,
Fabulous! Thanks so much for the samples. I see now in the original poems, the movement to the ends of the phrases allows rhymes in the poems.
It seems rare in Nôm prose, where moving them to the post-noun position isn't needed for rhymes. Are there examples of post-nominal position of number+classifiers in Nôm prose?
Mark
From: Ngô Thanh Nhàn <nhan@temple.edu>
To: Tuan Cuong Nguyen <cuonghannom@gmail.com>
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>; Judith A. Henchy <judithh@uw.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 6, 2017 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Classifiers in pre-20th century Vietnamese poetry
Dear Anh Cường,
Thanks... the examples are amazing of the time of Nguyễn Trãi.
I wonder if Prof. Cao Xuân Hạo has insights into these complex phrase
structures that look like a double topicalizations (đề-thuyết), and
his rejection of "classifier" as a part of speech.
Cheers,
Nhàn
Center for Vietnamese Philosophy, Culture & Society
Temple University
On 1/6/17, Tuan Cuong Nguyen <cuonghannom@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Mark,
>
> There are hundrends of samples found in the 15th century Quốc Âm Thi Tập by
> Nguyễn Trãi. These are some of them:
>
> - Góc thành nam, lều một căn (1.1 - the order of the poem in the collection,
> and that of the line)
> - Chặm tự nhiên lều một căn (102.1)
> - Thế giới đông nên ngọc một bầu (14.2)
> - Giang sơn dạm được đồ hai bức, Thế giới đông nên ngọc một bầu (19.5-6)
> - Ngày vắng xem chơi sách một an (17.2, an = 案)
> - Thương Lang mấy khóm một thuyền câu (19.1)
> - Ruộng đôi ba khóm đất con ong (56.1)
> - Nước mấy dòng thanh, ngọc mấy hàn (72.2)
> - Đồ thư bốn vách nhà làm của, Phong nguyệt năm hồ khách nổi thuyền
> (163.5-6)
> - Tác ngâm song có mai và [= vài] điểm, Dời ngó rèm lồng nguyệt một câu
> (159.3-4)
> - Thơ một hai thiên, rượu một bình (31.8)
> - Lòng một tấc đan còn nhớ chúa, Tóc hai phần bạc bởi thương thu (43.3-4)
> - Sách một hai phiên làm bậu bạn, Rượu năm ba chén đổi công danh (80.5-6)
> - Áo dành một tấm, cơm hai bữa (90.7)
> - Say mùi đạo, chè ba chén, Rửa lòng phiền, thơ bốn câu (58.5-6)
> - Rượu đối cầm đâm thơ một thủ, Ta cùng bóng miễn [= lẫn] nguyệt ba người
> (76.5-6)
> - Giang sơn cách đường nghìn dặm (94.5)
> ...
> See: Trần Trọng Dương, Nguyễn Trãi Quốc Âm Từ Điển, Hà Nội: Nhà xuất bản Từ
> điển bách khoa, 2014.
>
> Note: Ancient Chinese seems to have no classifier. When emerging in Middle
> Chinese, classifiers place after nouns (米一斗, 金一鈞, like abovementioned
> samples in Vietnamese), then gradually place before nouns as in modern
> Chinese. I wonder if there did be any influences of the use of classifiers
> after nouns in Middle Chinese on these vernaclular poems by Nguyễn Trãi who
> is well-educated in Literary Sinitic? Hope that you could make it clear.
>
> Best,
> Cuong
>
>
> ---
> Nguyễn Tuấn Cường, PhD., Researcher
> Director of the Institute of Sino-Nom Studies (at VASS)
> Part-time Lecturer at Vietnam National University, Hanoi (VNU-USSH)
>
>> On Jan 7, 2017, at 02:16, Judith A. Henchy <judithh@uw.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Mark,
>>
>> I cannot speak to your question, but your mention of Nguyen Dinh Hoa (who
>> used to teach Vietnamese at UW in the 1960s), reminds me that he left UW
>> Libraries his research notes and archives. I now have a substantial list
>> of his materials in a spreadsheet, which will eventually be part of the
>> archival inventory. In the meantime, I will find a place to park the
>> spreadsheet and am willing send it out to anyone interested. The
>> collection is not yet processed, so access to materials is currently
>> limited.
>>
>> Best
>>
>>
>> Judith
>>
>> From: Vsg [mailto:vsg-bounces@mailman11. u.washington.edu] On Behalf Of
>> Mark J. Alves
>> Sent: Friday, January 6, 2017 10:43 AM
>> To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
>> Subject: [Vsg] Classifiers in pre-20th century Vietnamese poetry
>>
>> Hello, Vietnamese literati. I'm looking for samples in pre-20th century
>> (the older, the better) Vietnamese poetry of the use of classifiers after
>> nouns. Nguyễn Đình Hòa (1957) notes this phenomenon in one sample
>> phrase.
>> If anyone knows of other samples, please send me an email.
>>
>> Mark Alves
>>
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