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From: Tuan Hoang <thoang1@nd.edu>
Date: Jun 29, 2006 12:23 PM
Subject: [Vsg] World Cup and Vietnam
Hi all,
Few international events fire up the collective imagination than that bastion of nationalism called the World Cup, and now that it has reached the quarterfinals, I am curious to hear about how it's been received in Vietnam, this year as well as during past tournaments. Has it affected the country at all? Are there people other than young men following it avidly? What teams, if any, do they root for? Do foreigners and natives find it useful as a way to relate to each other? I was reading an article by Mandy Thomas on urban public space, and she mentioned the authorities in Hanoi set up public venues for people to follow the games during the 2002 World Cup. For this one, the only thing I've heard so far is that some cities allow bars and restaurants open past the usual hours to accommodate Cup followers, whose numbers I take to be high.
Tuan Hoang
From: Michele Thompson <thompsonc2@southernct.edu>
Date: Jun 29, 2006 12:57 PM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] World Cup and Vietnam
Dear Tuan,
For the 1994 World Cup my landlord actually bought a satelite dish
and a new TV and practically everyone in the neighborhood was over
watching the World Cup in the middle of the night. In fact places in
the neighborhood had a tendency to open up later in the day because
everyone had been up all night and they also closed for longer in the
middle of the day so that people could get some sleep. I admit that
I don't remember who my family was rooting for.
cheers
From: Roy Hornsby <royby@royby.com>
Date: Jun 29, 2006 1:22 PM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] World Cup and Vietnam
Hi Tuan
I haven't been in VN over the world cup period but for the most
recent Tiger Cup, European Cup and also the SEA games the fervour of
football watchers was very apparent. During the tiger Cup in HCMC the
games were televised on the large screen near the Ben Thanh markets
and the night that VN beat Cambodia we made the error of venturing
past the venue to go into Nguyen Hue. the game had just finished and
the streets were packed with flag waving motorcyclists, some of whom
had their faces painted in patriotic colours. It was a great feeling
but even more chaotic than normal.
Teaching over the time of the European Cup was a miserable affair as
all the students would arrive glassy eyed having been up until all
hours watching football and early mornings the streets were almost
deserted. Venues all over HCMC advertised that they were showing the
matches and patrons spilled out into the streets until all hours.
During the last SEA games I was working in Ha Noi and then travelling
in the far north-west. As VN advanced to the ill-fated final clash
with Thailand the scenes in Ha Noi were just amazing. I was staying
in a hotel in Hang Hanh St which is surrounded by small cafes and
when a game was about to be televised the narrow street would become
completely choked with motorbikes as each venue was packed with noisy
excited spectators. the scenes after a match where VN had been
victorious were quite astounding with wave after wave of groups of
(mainly young) people on motorbikes carrying large VN flags (which
had mysteriously appeared on the streets for sale) and driving around
and around the city sounding their horns and generally letting off a
bit of steam.
I was in the north in the town of Tuan Giao for the final of the SEA
games and most small eateries had a television set going. The place
we went to eat was not exception and it became packed with hungry and
thirsty football watchers. A lot of the customers were truck drivers
who pulled up their rigs outside the cafe and came in. I was alarmed
to see them drive off again after the match in their large vehicles
after having consumed much rice wine.
Betting was furious on that final although most were betting on
Thailand to win I think.
You ask was it just the young men watching and certainly there were
many females who I have seen joining in and becoming a part of the
throng. However, the fervour is not confined to just the younger set.
Certainly at the corner of my hem where I sit and drink coffee the
older men are always reading the football results and passing the
papers to me to help me "keep up with the news".
sorry this is not relating to world cup, but i'm expecting things
will be the same for this event also, maybe more so.
cheers - roy hornsby
From: Diane Fox (dnfox) <dnfox@hamilton.edu>
Date: Jun 29, 2006 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] World Cup and Vietnam
Yes to all that Michele reported. I was in the guest house of the Foreign Language College at the time, and my sleep would be regularly punctuated by shouts of "vao!" rising several floors from the reception area where there was a tv. It was quite the passionate affair. And it was definitely not just young men. I remember tales of college rectors and Ministry of Education personnel and others all a bit worn but happy as the games went on.
Diane
From: Thomas Jandl <thjandl@yahoo.com>
Date: Jun 29, 2006 3:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] World Cup and Vietnam
A couple of observations on football in Vietnam, although not directly World Cup related.
At my first visit to Vietnam in 1997, I was constantly asked particularly by young boys what I thought about this or that player form my home town of Washington, DC. Being European born, I have little interest in US football, and they were greatly disappointed.
One of my good friends and translators is a young woman who watches English football late at night, but is a big fan of Zidane, and thus roots for France in the Cup. One day I wante dto treat her and take her to a V-League match. She scoffed at me and told me she doesn't watch that stuff, has no idea who is playing, what the teams are and couldn't care less. So much for domestic football.
During the Tiger Cup, she took me to a cafe full with young people, including women. The ride home was hazardous, since Vietnam beat Indonesia.
And lastly, whenever a conversation goes flat, I tell people (truthfully) that I personally know the beloved Vietanmese national squad coach, Alfred Riedl. It gets me free drinks through the night.
The most interesting thing about it all is that, yes, they love their national team, but other than that football is an exotic, foreign thing. There is no excitement at all for the domestic league. People reject an invitation to a SA afternoon match, but will stay up all night on workdays for an English match.
Thomas Jandl
From: Adam @ UoM <fforde@unimelb.edu.au>
Date: Jun 29, 2006 5:33 PM
Subject: RE: [Vsg] World Cup and Vietnam
All we need now is somebody to start an argument about whether the World Cup is good or bad for Vietnam's GDP ... Who cares?
Adam
From: Markus Taussig <markustaussig@mac.com>
Date: Jun 29, 2006 4:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] World Cup and Vietnam
I think the big reason for disinterest in the domestic league (and
preference for foreign leagues) is the common sense that it is deeply
corrupted (and foreign leagues are not). Competitions that the
national team competes in, like the Tiger Cup, on the other hand, are
seen as much more legitimate and therefore worthy of serious
attention and nationalist fervor. This past year has seen big-time
scandals over corruption in Vietnamese soccer, i.e. an attempt to
address the big impediment in domestic competition.
2am pickup games of football were popular in my downtown neighborhood
of Hanoi, between games of the 2002 World Cup. Another noteworthy
phenomenon has been post-game racing. I seem to remember a number of
young men dying in Saigon (or was it just getting arrested?) in late
night racing after a Vietnamese Tiger Cup game.
From: adam <adam@aduki.com.au>
Date: Jun 29, 2006 4:29 PM
Subject: RE: [Vsg] World Cup and Vietnam
I recall watching an international football (soccer) match on TV in Hanoi some years ago, between an Asian and a European team, with a couple of dozen Vietnamese. As a European (... specifically in that context a southern Englishman !?), I found myself automatically expecting the Vietnamese to side with the Asian team, and found myself struck by how they not only did not do so, but enthusiastically enjoyed the fray, cheering on both sides. 'In emotion there is truth' - ? I found this as interesting for what it said about my own prejudices and identity politics as those of the Vietnamese.
Tinh cam / cam dong ... Phai co tinh co ly ... and so on.
'All the world's a game, and all the men and women merely players' ...
Adam
From: BoiTran Huynh <boitranb@yahoo.com>
Date: Jun 29, 2006 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] World Cup and Vietnam
Hi,
I was in Hanoi during the world cup 1994. I was staying in Bat Dan Street. At night, some people took their tivi to the street and everyone sat down right on the street to watch the games. People shouted and clapped; the neighbourbood could hardly have a good sleep those days. There was some unsual joy burst into everyone's life, not only men, but also young women talked about football on the street. In the early morning, when I walked to the bus stop, to my surprised, some young men exchanged green dollars notes for betting. What stunned me most was the two 200 dollar notes that the young guy handed to the other in the gesture that expressed an accepted loss, and the readiness of payment.
Boitran Huynh-Beattie
From: Peter Hansen <phansen@ourladys.org.au>
Date: Jun 29, 2006 5:13 PM
Subject: RE: [Vsg] World Cup and Vietnam
I’m in Viet Nam at present, and the atmosphere is, to say the least, very ‘xoi noi’. A lot of press debate in Tuoi Tre and Thanh Nien about whether the universities should have moved exams away from the World Cup so as not to present students with a dilemma! On Adam’s point, my experience was the opposite. I watched Australia v. Japan with a group of friends in Da Nang. Most were somewhat shamefaced (knowing my antipodean origins) in supporting Japan, but they did so on the basis that it was the ‘Asian Team’.
I was in TPHCM during the 2003 SEA Games when Vietnam were beaten in the final by Thailand (per usual). I was greatly struck by the attitude to the loss. The euphoria of success was not matched by vengeful anger or dark despairt when a loss was encountered. Late in that 2003 final, Viet Nam drew level with the Thais. I was in a crowd of more than a thousand watching a large screen in front of the Nha Hat Hoa Binh in District 10. They went totally wild. But then the Thais scored a winning goal in extra time to win the game. No histrionics, just a collective ‘oooh’; someone then pulled the plug on the projector, and everyone walked off home. Finis. Quite a contrast to what I suspect the reaction would have been in many other places.
Peter Hansen
From: Thomas Jandl <thjandl@yahoo.com>
Date: Jun 29, 2006 5:15 PM
Subject: RE: [Vsg] World Cup and Vietnam
This reflects a recent discussion, and I think this is historically conditioned.
South Americans will cheer for their own team as long as it is in the contest, but switch allegiance to the South American team left against another continent immediately. This is even true for the non-Hispanic Brazilians. I recall watching the finals of 1994 (Brazil -- Italy -- I hope I have my years right) at the Brazilian Culture Institute in Washington. Lots of Latinos were present, cheering for Brazil. Why? Because we are todos Americanos -- and that of course does not inlcude the USA. The same concept goes for Africa. All my African friends from Senegal and Nigeria cheer for all the African teams, regardless of the fact that their own teams were eliminated by these countries in the qualifyers.
On the other hand, the Europeans present were all for Brazil as well. Why? Because they did not want to see the old enemy (football-wise) Italy win.
There is a historical animosity among and between European nations -- in football, but that's true for other continents as well (Argentina -- Brazil -- Uruguay, of course, but there was also a football war once in Central America, forgot which countries).
I would argue -- intuitively -- that history tells South Americans and Africans that they are in it together against the 'others,' while Europeans feel that the worst enemy is their European neighbor, not the African or South American.
Vietnam? More ambivalent, maybe. The Vietnamese have no huge hang-up with Westerners, as those of us who were concerned on their first trip can attest to. So maybe they know that they will never win it, beause they are "too short and light" (Alfred Riedl, their very own beloved coach), and cheer for the team they feel plays the nicest ball.
I doubt they would cheer for the Chinese, though!
From: Michael Gray <maigray@yahoo.com>
Date: Jun 29, 2006 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] World Cup and Vietnam
Dear Tuan and others,
I was in Hanoi during the World Cup and Tiger Cup
summer of 1998, and I was so impressed by the mayhem
of it all that I wrote a story on the link between
football celebrations and late-night motorbike racing.
Anyone interested can find it on my website at
www.michaelgray.ca.
Cheers,
Mike
From: Tenley Mogk <tmogk@vn.seapro.crs.org>
Date: Jun 30, 2006 2:10 AM
Subject: RE: [Vsg] World Cup and Vietnam
In Hanoi for the World Cup now, I am thoroughly enjoying conversations
with my xe om driver (not that the conversations weren't good before;
he's just not that talkative a guy).
But since the WC started, we'll be riding along in silence and he'll ask
where Portugal is. Are all people in Ghana - is that in South America
(?) - dark skinned? I bought a map and we now periodically pull it out
of the seat of his bike and check out what countries are left in the
running. How, he wants to know, is England so small? It seems like it
should be bigger (well, it once was, sort of, I told him). If teachers
in schools across the country could use the World Cup to teach
geography, Vietnamese kids would be better at maps than American kids.
Oh wait, they already are.
From: Michele Thompson <thompsonc2@southernct.edu>
Date: Jun 30, 2006 6:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] World Cup and Vietnam
Dear Everyone,
This is sort of about World Cup stuff and Xe Om drivers. I don't think I ever made a bigger hit with presents taken in to Vietnam, mostly for my most regular Xe Om guys, than with the Greek Soccer T-shirts I got from a Greek friend after the last World Cup.
cheers
Michele
From: Thomas Jandl <thjandl@yahoo.com>
Date: Jun 30, 2006 11:19 AM
Subject: RE: [Vsg] World Cup and Vietnam
Who cares if X is good or bad for Vietnam's GDP?
Vietnam would care, I guess. And those studying Vietnam would care as well, wouldn't they?
But so far nobody has made that argument.
I do also think that some of the reflections could provide some initial thoughts about things like the construction of friend or foe (or at least rival), and the mental integration into a larger civilization. I, for one, found the remark that the Vietnamese are not rooting for Asian teams interesting.
A good lot has been written about the international relations relevance of football in recent times.
But I shall not advocate this discussion further, for it is certainly not down my line of academic interest.
T.J.
From: Roy Hornsby <royby@royby.com>
Date: Jul 2, 2006 2:11 AM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] World Cup and Vietnam
maybe good for Gross Domestic Happiness though ;-)
roy
From: Adam @ UoM <fforde@unimelb.edu.au>
Date: Jul 2, 2006 2:55 AM
Subject: RE: [Vsg] World Cup and Vietnam
I call for immediate funding!
Adam
From: adam <adam@aduki.com.au>
Date: Jul 2, 2006 4:12 AM
Subject: RE: [Vsg] World Cup and Vietnam
EVERYTHING has two sides to it, the Vietnamese teach us (cai gi cung co hai
mat cua no ...).
From: Grace Cheng <gcheng@hpu.edu>
Date: Jul 2, 2006 10:30 AM
Subject: RE: [Vsg] World Cup and Vietnam
I agree. I can't imagine any Asia nationals cheering for other Asian teams, apart from perhaps Arabs cheering for Arabs (Koreans for Japan, Chinese for Indonesia?). No common language, belief system, experience w/ the West or categorization by the West, etc. in modern history. Never been commonly "black" or "latino" to whites. No equivalent of a Simon Bolivar or Leopold Senghor or Asian version of pan-Africanism/Latin Americanism.
From: Nhu Miller <trantnhu@gmail.com>
Date: Jul 2, 2006 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] World Cup and Vietnam
I saw World Cup in its full splendor in 2002 when I happened to be in Viet Nam.
Other than watching Iran win in 1998, I'd never seen a football game before. I was
most intrigued by the fact that Vietnamese fans root for the winning team -- whomever
that may be. I was in a cafe in Saigon when the US was playing and I was the only person rooting against the US. Strange! Vietnamese are now rooting for Germans to win because as one fan said "Duc da dep!" (Germans kick beautifully!) I think they're rooting for winners because they're tired of being the under dogs, even though Viet Nam was the eventual winner (and loser) in that Samson vs. Goliath battle. In the same way, many Vietnamese viewed with relief that they were not the object of a "don" (spanking) by the US in 1991 during the first Gulf War. It is a relief not to be the object of US attention, ire and pure vindictiveness.
My cousin Tan, a Vietnamese Army colonel said "it's all fixed anyway." Many people share this belief that the World Cup is an arrangement. Everyone here knows that Germany is going to win as if it's pre-ordained in some way.
Watching the World Cup in Viet Nam is super fun because the fans are so passionate and
yet there's no national pride to lose. It's pure spectator sport.
T.T.Nhu
From: Roy Hornsby <royby@royby.com>
Date: Jul 9, 2006 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] World Cup and Vietnam
this article from the World Bank could be of interest, particularly the papers and links listed below it
"World Cup Special:
Football, Sports, and Development
For two months every four years, the world stops for the World Cup. It is estimated that 1.3 billion people watched the final of the 2002 World Cup in Japan, a number which is sure to rise this year in Berlin. So, earlier this year, research teams from some of the world's leading investment banks shifted their eyes from stocks and bonds to predicting the winners of this summer's matches in Germany. The reason - studies suggest that success or failure in football (or soccer) may affect a country's economy."
http://rru.worldbank.org/features/worldcup2006.aspx
cheers - roy
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