Quang Truong and Cong Truong
Qu?ng tru?ng and công tru?ng
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From: Tuan Hoang
Date: Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 7:45 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
I have a couple of questions on terminology... First, are there differences between "qu?ng tru?ng" and "công tru?ng" - if yes, what are they? Second, what are their English equivalents?
The former term is commonly used in modern Vietnamese lexicon. But (I think) the latter is getting used more today. I suppose QT could be translated as "square" while CT as "public square." But I'm unclear about their Vietnamese connotations.
Cheers,
Tuan Hoang
Adjunct Lecturer
Department of History
CSUSB-PDC
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From: Tai, Hue-Tam
Date: Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 8:02 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
The Bui Phung dictionary translates "quang truong" as square and gives "quang truong Ba Dinh" as an example. Wouldn't Ba Dinh be considered a public square par excellence?
"Cong truong" has two meanings: one is square (as in "cong truong Me Linh" in Saigon); another is construction site, a usage I have seen quite frequently.
Hue Tam Ho Tai
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From: hoang tuan dung
Date: Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 9:05 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear Prof. Hue Tam Ho Tai,
It's hard to say Ba Dinh as a public square since the area made of concrete in font of president Ho Chi Minh is open for pubic (in the evening), however, the remaining area of this "quang truong" is not. In my opinion, public squire is an area where all people can assess and have activities there freely. Probably the area in font of Chinese embassy in Hanoi can be considered as a public square, however, it is quite small to be called square...
America may have lots of public square, I think.
Best regards,
td
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From: Tai, Hue-Tam
Date: Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 9:26 AM
To: hoang tuan dung <hoangtuandungvn@yahoo.com>, Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Tuan
You need to proof your email better! There is a real howler in your post besides other typos.:)
The dictionaries do not translate either quang truong or cong truong as public square, just square. It seems that by "public" you mean not under state control or privately owned. By this definition, much of Ba Dinh Square is not public. But I am not sure that there is a hard and fast distinction between cong truong and quang truong. After all, a construction site is not a public site, yet the term cong truong is most often used in that sense. For what it's worth, my sense is quang truong applies to a larger and usually open space than cong truong. The distinction is not about control or ownership, but size and enclosure. I could be wrong.
Hue Tam Ho Tai
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From: Tai, Hue-Tam <hhtai@fas.harvard.edu>
Date: Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 9:31 AM
To: hoang tuan dung <hoangtuandungvn@yahoo.com>, Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
PS
For good measure I decided to consult Dao Duy Anh's dictionary since cong truong is a 20th century neologism most likely imported from Japan or China
He gives the definition as "cho tho thuyen lam viec (atelier, fabrique)" which is more closely connected to construction site than public square.
Hue Tam Ho Tai
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From: Erik Harms
Date: Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 1:28 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear Tuan,
Based on personal experience in Vietnamese cities, a quang truong tends to be a more formal version of a square, designed with the intent of staging "spectacles". The question of whether such spectacles are "public" may well depend on one's political perspective. Ba Dinh is a quang truong and the spectacles there are "for" the public--but they tend to be spread "to" the public rather than emanating from the public. Thus the operative word is "quang", which, like the same root word in the term for advertising (quang cao), is all about spreading an idea to a public. So a quang truong might be understood as a place for spreading ideas.
A cong truong is sometimes indeed a construction site and is defined as such in standard dictionaries, but in Saigon it is also commonly used to denote a public square, but always, it seems, of the sort associated with a traffic circle. In HCMC Turtle Lake (ho Con rua) is actually called Cong truong Quoc Te, Me Linh Square is a cong truong, and the place in front of Nha Tho Duc Ba is called Cong truong Cong xa Pa-Ri.
In plans for the Thu Thiem New Urban Zone underway in HCMC, planners often state that HCMC does not have a "quang truong" and they look forward to a planned quang truong in Thu Thiem, which apparently will finally make the city into a "real" city. They often use the traffic jams during Tet festivities or fireworks shows as evidence for the need of a quang truong, where people could come and assemble for planned events.
In my opinion, the best term for both of these in English would be a "square." While other terms may be better in certain contexts, the use of square for Ba Dinh square, and the fact that the terms does "sound right" in that case, would make it difficult to use another term. But depending on your context, you might try using something like "events square" to be more specific about the quang truong.
-Erik Harms
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From: Ngô Thanh Nhàn
Date: Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 1:43 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear all,
It sounds like "công truo`ng" is the southern version (before 1975) of
the northern "qua?ng truo`ng"--although they are slightly different, as
pointed out by Prof. Huê? Tâm where "qua?ng" is large, "công" is public
in the south, "công" in the north is construction. Both use "truo`ng" to
mean a field for one type of use (truo`ng ho?c, thi? truo`ng, dâ´u truo`ng,
hiê?n truo`ng, câ`u truo`ng, ...).
My 2-cents,
Nha`n
--
Ngô Thanh Nhàn, Ph.D.
Visiting Research Fellow
Center for Vietnamese Philosophy, Culture & Society
Temple University
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From: Tai, Hue-Tam
Date: Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 1:53 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
An interesting take on quang. The original meaning is "large" (rong rai). DDA dictionary includes a variety of expressions with French translation. Thus quang hiep is defined as "rong va hep" and translated as "etendu et etroit".
The various Saigon squares cited by Erik remind me more of Harvard Square than Ba Dinh Square. Harvard Square is not a good place to stage massive spectacles, though there are always small crowds attracted by street performers.
So it would seem that a major difference is open vs. enclosed whether by heavy traffic or by fences. And it seems that there is a plan to include an open "square" similar to Ba Dinh in Thu Thiem. But we are far from the distinction between public square and square tout court.
Hue Tam
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From: Mr. Lam
Date: Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 2:49 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
I think the meaning of the two compounds is quite plain if you go to their Chinese origin.
Truo`ng means field
Công: gong means work, then c4ng tr[]5ng means construction site.
Công: gong: public, then công truo`ng means public square.
Qua?ng: guang : large then qua?ng truo`ng also means public square, perhaps simply a bigger one!
--
Truong buu Lam
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From: David Brown
Date: Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 8:57 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
The Vietnamese press seems to have routinely translated Tahrir Square (Arabic for 'Liberation Square') as Qu?ng Tru?ng Tahrir and Tienanmen Square as Qu?ng Tru?ng Thiên Ân Môn, choices that support the notion that qu?ng tru?ng refers to large and accessible public spaces.
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From: Hoang t. Dieu-Hien
Date: Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 10:42 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear list,
On the meaning of qu?ng tru?ng and công tru?ng, I agree with professor Truong B?u Lâm.
Having lived under both the current government and the Republic of Viet Nam during the war, I agree with professor Ngô Thanh Nhàn that công tru?ng is used to mean a "square" or "public open space" or "traffic circle" in the South, to my knowledge, only in Sài-Gòn, pre-1975. Being an old Saigonese, the terms "Công tru?ng Mê Linh," "Công tru?ng Dân Ch?," etc. is etched in my mind so much that I cannot remember whether these names have ever been officially changed to "Qu?ng tru?ng Mê Linh" or "Qu?ng tru?ng Dân Ch?" after 1975.
I would venture that "công tru?ng" used for an open public space or a traffic circle cannot be found anywhere else in Vi?t Nam but in Sài-Gòn proper. In other words, traffic circles or urban open public space built elsewhere in H? Chí Minh City in the past 15 years or so would not be called "công tru?ng." It is a war-time use of the term that has been carried over for old well-known landmarks.
Respectfully,
Di?u-Hi?n
Hoang t. Dieu-Hien, RN, MN, MPH
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From: Tai, Hue-Tam
Date: Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 10:56 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Cong Truong Me Linh's name has not changed.
The reason why Thu Thiem plans are incorporating a quang truong is that Saigon just does not have a large open space similar to Ba Dinh or Tiananmen Square where large scale events can take place. The various cong truong are all hemmed in by buildings and streets and shrinking in size all the time.
Hue Tam
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From: Tuan Hoang <tuannyriver@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 10:01 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
A belated appreciation for all the thoughts on my question. I've just read through and found much to think about. Thanks so much!
Cheers,
~Tuan
Tuan Hoang
Adjunct Lecturer
Department of History
CSUSB-PDC