Dog Meat
From: Martha Lincoln
Date: Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 8:46 PM
Dear list,
I am trying to get information on the cultural significance of eating dog meat in Vietnam,
because I am interested in the claims that the cholera outbreaks of 2007-8-9 in north
Vietnam were linked to the consumption of dog meat. Specifically I am curious about how
region, class, and gender are associated with this practice. I have not found anything
published (besides websites that are for a tourist type audience) so far, and wonder if
anyone may lend a hand.
Thank you!
Martha
--
Martha Lincoln
PhD Candidate/Nghiên cứu sinh
Anthropology Program/Khoa Nhân chủng học
CUNY Graduate Center/ Trung tâm/Viện Sau Đại học Thành phố New York
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From: Brad Owen
Date: Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 9:32 PM
I was wondering when this topic was going to come up for discussion. Eating dog meat seemed to be no big deal at all in Hanoi, but the southerners I know seem to feel it's more taboo. The Thit Cay restaurants do pick up wandering strays for meat as I can attest to.
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From: William Noseworthy
Date: Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 10:00 PM
Dear Martha, Brad, Robert, and list,
Do correct me if I am wrong...However, having lived in TP Ho Chi Minh
in 2007-8, I was under the impression that dog meat was readily
attainable in Cholon (District 5) and also District 10, where I lived,
as well as other committees under a strong "Northern" influence.
Though the topic was certainly a "tourist trap delicacy"-- I never
encountered it as a "taboo"---more as a joke, "Why don't you want
something better?"--friends would ask.
Furthermore, I was under the impression that the Cholera outbreak was
due to a linkage of the drinking water conditions brought about by the
drought in the Red River Delta at that time, since, while the major
vessel for contracting Cholera would be by sharing food or drinks
(*note ANY food or drink will do!), and considerable medical evidence
exists that aquatic environs can serve as reservoirs for the
bacterium. Surely, you have checked the local news for reports at
those times?
Finally, I would love to hear your conclusions. Great stuff!
Ever the best,
Billy
William B. Noseworthy,
Masters Candidate '11
UW-Madison
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From: Phan Thanh Hai
Date: Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 12:39 AM
Dear Martha,
I think the best to get information on the cultural of eating dod meat in Vietnam you should to contact with Dr. Vu The Long in Hanoi. Now he is working in the Institute of Archaelogy (of Vietnam Academy ofSocial Sciences-VASS).
Phan Thanh Hai
--
Dr.Phan Thanh Hai
Deputy Director of Hue Monuments Consevation Centre
23 Tong Duy Tan St., Hue City, Vietnam
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From: Tam Ngo
Date: Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 1:19 AM
Dear Robert,
I grew up in a farming/gardening village in Laocai province, border with China. Because of our agricultural production, we kept a lot of cat as house pet to chase the mice away. We were all very poor in the 1980s and meat was scare but I do not recall ever ate cat meat (my grandparents also confirm that). However, after the border was open in 1992, within a few years, the numbers of cat in ours and the neighbouring villages reduced significantly. I was told that families were selling cat to traders (lai buon) who collected these poor cats to sell to China where apparently xiaohu (little tiger) restaurants have high demand for supply. If families do not sell, many of their cats would be stolen anyway. In 1995, our family was urbanized as we moved to Laocai town, where the first time in my life I ate cat meat in a small com binh dan which also boosted itself as the only one in town serving 'Tieu Ho'. Yet, this dish was not on the 'menu' very long, probably for many reasons, but from my own experience, I can fully understand why. The interesting thing I found recalling this memory while reading your discussion about whether Vietnamese consume cat and dog meat is that there is a kind of moral judgment, in the name of explanation about culture differences, to the so-call exotic behavior of others. In my small Laocai town, it is always easy to blame the Chinese for the disappearance of our cats, or of anything else.
Best, Tam
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From: Pietro P. Masina
Date: Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 2:23 AM
Dear Martha,
I am not an anthropologist and my answers are just tentative, based on direct observation in the North. Gender is certainly associated with eating dog (like everything else) because dog is hot (or cold?) and is suitable for men more than for women. For this reason, eating dogs can be a male affair accompanied by a lot of rice wine.
Eating dog is somehow sinful and therefore doing that together creates a sense of bonding. I had dog meat with my team at a conclusion of an extended fieldwork. My impression was that no one really loved dog meat (nor do I) but it was considered a proper way to celebrate.
Dog is eaten to bring good luck before long travels or after a period of bad luck. There are specific days during the lunar calendar suitable for this. The linkage with religion is not clear to me but for a Buddhist eating a dog is very much a sin because dog is a higher level reincarnation than other animals. But I doubt most VIetnamese believe in reincarnation.
The relation with social classes is a very interesting question. What are classes in Vietnam? How are they defined? It is probably too soon in the industrialization process to see the emergence of a modern working class, but a urban bourgeoisie is already visible. I don't know if current social changes have an impact on dog consumption as they have in other areas.
Best regards
Pietro Masina
Prof. Pietro P. Masina
Dept. of Social Sciences
University of Naples "L'Orientale"
Largo S. Giovanni Maggiore 30
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From: Robert Schuessler
Date: Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 2:48 AM
Thanks Tam
You are so right about the Western reaction about the "exotic" behavior of consuming what we know only as house pets and "family members" and I didn't intend any moral judgement. Recently many State laws have been passed in the US forbidding the butchering of horses, a traditional favorite on the menu at the Harvard University Faculty Club.
I brought up the issue of cats only because I think the eating of dog meat in Asia is common knowledge in the West, but I was surprised at the frequent signs for thit meo along Route 1A in the North and thought it might be relevant to the discussion. Thanks so much for relating your first hand experience. By the way, I had the privilege of riding a motorcycle across the northernmost provinces of Vietnam last spring and know what a beautiful area you come from.
In line with your story, there is a common joke in the US, perhaps tinged with a little prejudice, that you never see a cat in the vicinity of a Chinese restaurant.
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From: Dinh Lu Giang
Date: Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 2:50 AM
Dear Pietro Masina and everybody,
I have another idea about good/bad luck. I heard from the Viet truck drivers that they avoid eating Thịt chó and tiết canh vịt (duck blood) before long trips, as it can bring bad luck. While many people in the North eat dog, it seems like Southerners don't eat it much, and you are right that for a Buddhist, eating a dog is really a sin.
In Vietnam, another stereotype, which can be false, is that Catholic followers eat thịt chó, and the Buddhists usually criticize them for that. I really don't know where the stereotype come from.
In Hanoi, there is a famous street, namely Nhật Tân, which many dog meat restaurants.
To conclude, I think for a while, in Vietnam and in any poor countries, people had tendency to eat everything they have. Eating dog or cat or snake or other things like bat and mouse can be explained by the need of food at the beginning, and later on by habits or preferences.
Best,
Giang
--
Dinh Lu Giang,
PhD student on Viet - Khmer bilingualism and bilingual education
Dept. of Vietnamese Studies,
University of Social Sciences and Humanities, Vietnam National University - HCMC - Vietnam
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From: Michele Thompson
Date: Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 6:54 AM
Dear Everyone,
I've been to dog meat restaurants many times although it was now over a decade ago the last time I went to one. So I'm not sure what the current situation is. I was always in the company of the late Professor Tran Quoc Vuong and a group from the Vien Khao Co Hoc, usually after we had been out on an expedition of some sort. At that time there was an entire street of shack type restaurants (I don't remember the name of the street) that served dog. They were open almost exclusively during the dark of the moon which was also, according to Vuong, the proper time to eat dog. I never actually ate dog myself nor was I pressured to do so. Vuong and my other companions always made sure there were several non-dog dishes available. In general the other women in our party did not eat dog either. There was a lot of beer, rice wine, and scotch involved also. The dogs were definitely raised for meat rather than strays that had been recently rounded up. If you had occasion to drive by the restaurants during the time of the month when they were closed you could still see, and hear, the dogs in large cages and sometimes see people feeding and watering them.
I never saw anyone eat cat.
cheers
Michele
Michele Thompson
Professor, Dept. of History
Southern Connecticut State University
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From: Hai Le
Date: Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 7:10 AM
As long as the cholera outbreak in 2007-2008 is concerned, I think it was because of the Ma('m To^m or the little shrimps from Thanh Hoa and its water environment, as the vibrio cholerae is waterborne. Mam Tom is often given with Thit Cho but also with any other food in Vietnam like cooked pork. Should you need more information about that outbreak I can find some articles from the archive, as well as telephone contact to a MD in Saigon who wrote a number of medical articles at that time.
For me the best dog meat restaurant in Vietnam is sadly the Northern Korean restaurant in Saigon (Hau Giang street or also called the Korean street, Tan Binh district, nearby the Superbowl next to the Tan Son Nhat airport).
Hai.
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From: Hue-Tam Ho Tai
Date: Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 8:13 AM
Re: Dog meat
When I was growing up in Saigon in the 1960s, there were places known to be dog meat restaurants but they were hidden and you had to know where they were located. I believe they were banned. Dog meat restaurants were places for "an nhau," exclusively male. I don't know, however, if competitive drinking of the kind that is quite common nowadays, was practiced then.
Narquis Barak befriended a Hanoi woman who sold dogmeat and she made a video about it. According to Narquis, some women do eat dogmeat. They seem to be traders, and they do so on special days. I had never until now, heard of people eating cat meat.
Hue-Tam Ho Tai
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From: Michael Sieburg
Date: Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 8:19 AM
Re: females and dog meat, several years ago in Hanoi, a female friend from a Hanoi suburb served dog meat at her birthday party because it is her favorite dish.
When I lived in Hanoi, I was told that cat meat is illegal in Vietnam.
Mike
--
Columbia University's School of International and Public Affairs
Master of International Affairs, 2010
Finance and Development
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From: Josh Glasser
Date: Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 8:31 AM
Illegal perhaps, but roads in the vicinity of the Perfume Pagoda in (what used to be) Ha Tay Province are sprinkled with food stalls and restaurants advertising "Tieu Ho". I remember it quite distinctly because I had to find a delicate way to translate the signs for my American, cat-loving fiancee, with whom I was traveling.
Josh
Fulbright in Vietnam
2007-2008
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From: NGUYEN BANG NONG
Date: Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 8:46 AM
Dear Martha,
The international conference at Binh Chau, Vietnam in 2007 had a paper that maybe interesting for you.
Nguyen
Dog Meat, Music, Song Birds and Orchids: The Politics of Vietnamese Masculinity
Thịt chó, Âm nhạc Chim cảnh và Hoa lan: Chính trò của Nam tính Việt Nam
Nir Avieli
Dept. of Sociology and Anthropology, Ben Gurion University, Israel
Khoa Xaõõ hoäi hoïc vaøø Nhaân hoïc, Ñaïi hoïc Ben Gurion, Israel
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From: Pham Thai Son
Date: Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 8:49 AM
For Tieu Ho restaurant, we have Thai Binh city (Thai Binh province) that is the city of "Tieu Ho" in the North (you can find many press articles on Internet by key words: Thanh pho thit meo) .
This is illegal, so almost restaurants in this city have panel of "Bo, cho, tho, trau" - "Beef, Dog, Rabbit, Buffalo" in which "Tho - Rabbit" will be understood like "Meo - Cat"
--------------------------------------------------------
PHAM Thai Son
Laboratoire "Environnements & Dispositifs Urbains" - INSA Lyon
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From: Binh Ngo
Date: Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 8:57 AM
Between 2006 and 2008 I participated in three different drinking groups of
working-class, middle-, and upper-class men. I did not see dog meat served
in the upscale restaurants where my wealthy male informants socialized and
drank. The men most of whom have not eaten dog meat before do think dogmeat as
meat of class, particularly at their fancy drinking establishments. By
this, I do not mean that rich people do not eat dogmeat if they have a
preference for it but they would have to consume it at other venues.
In fact the eating establishments where dog meat is served are mostly
called "quan" rather than "nha hang"(quan Cay To Thinh, Thinh's Young Dog
Shop).
As Dinh Lu Giang says “in Vietnam and in any poor countries,
food at the beginning, and later on by habits or preferences.” It would be
interesting for Martha to explore why snakes and mice as well as other
dishes of “the poor” have become delicacies for wealthy drinkers while
dogmeat is off the exotic list of “class” display and “class” consumption.
I remembered growing up in Rach Gia witnessing many cadres from the North
eat dog meat. Many people believe that dogs do not eat their own species
and dog can detect dogmeat eaters from non-dog eaters and chase after
them. I don't know how much of this belief is fact but I experienced it
first hand. In the early 1980s the principal of the high school where my
father taught gave my father a bowl of "cho xao lan" (a kind of dog curry.
My father left the dish home for us as dinner and went to join drinking
with his boss.
My mother did not want to eat so she asked me to give the dish to our two
dogs. They sniffed and walked away uninterested. Our dogs also gave the
principal a hard barking and chasing (their unusual behavior) every time he
had to pass by our house to get to his school.
Binh
Anthropology candidate, Cornell
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From: Erica J. Peters
Date: Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 11:12 AM
Dr. Hocquard was in Hanoi in the 1880s, and took pictures of dogs sold specifically for butchering, at a market held every five days near the citadel complex. He also wrote: "Hanoi food vendors commonly offer roast dog [le chien rôti et laqué]. I tried it one time; it tasted tough but not too unpleasant." (Une Campagne au Tonkin; Hachette, 1892, pp. 177-178; picture on p. 177.)
I've found little historical information on the eating of cats in Vietnam, although Antony Landes in 1881 reported as a popular Vietnamese folk remedy that blood from the tail of a black cat provided an antidote to the bite of a particular poisonous lizard. Excursions et reconnaissances 9 (1885), p. 222. Other French writers claimed that Chinese people ate roast cat as well as dog.
Henri Gallais' Vade-mecum de l'officier au Tonkin (1895) reported that a special breed of dog was sold for food, and "thus one sees dog butchers in every Annamese city" (54). He compared the practice to "certain restaurants in Paris where they sometimes substitute cat for rabbit, simply taking care to remove the animal's head before serving it." This may tie into memories/urban legends about the foods Parisians had to eat during the terrible time of the Commune (1871).
Erica
Erica J. Peters
Culinary Historians of Northern California
------------------------
From: Nir Avieli
Date: 2009/12/1
Dear List
this is the second round of 'dog meat discussion', and once again i find all these stories, comments and links fascinating
while i know very little about the relationship between dog meat and the cholera outbreak, i presented
in our meeting in Binh Chau a paper on contemporary masculinity on Hoi An where i discussed dog meat eating and suggested for a political context
i attach below a couple of paragraphs that outline my general arguments regarding the appeal of dog meat and the reasons for avoiding it.
i am happy to send the article section to anyone who is intereted
best
Nir
Dr Nir Avieli
Department of Sociology and Anthropology
Ben Gurion University, Israel
Up until 2004 dog meat was not popular in Hoi An and the issue of eating dog-meat was hardly mentioned. However, upon my return to Hoi An in 2004, not only did the number of dog-meat establishments soar, but the public discourse surrounding this culinary preference became pronounced, intensive and heated.
Whenever the subject of dog meat was brought up, it raised strong emotional reactions. While quite a few of my male and female friends admitted to trying thit cho and a few even said that they developed a taste for it, in most conversations the initial reaction was negative and critical with faces twisting with revulsion and disgust, (though the verb commonly used was so ('scared') rather than ghe ('disgusted'), a point to which I return later). The explanations for this rejection tended to focus on several topics: the issue of dog-theft that plagued town with the rising demand for dog-meat, the notion that eating dog-meat incurs 'bad-luck' and the moral and religious transgression related to the close ties between humans and dogs. But as the conversations developed, the arguments became less negative and unilateral, and more complex explanations regarding the popularity of dog-meat were suggested.
What I found most interesting was the recurring association of dog-meat with regionalism: there were repeated insinuations that eating dog-meat had to do with the North and the Northerners. Moreover, these Northerners were somehow related to the regime. Thus, it was repeatedly suggested, explicitly or implicitly, that eating dog-meat has a political measure to it and that, when eating (or rejecting) dog-meat, the diners make a political statement.
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From: Frank
Date: Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 11:52 AM
A factoid and an anecdote: fishermen in Da Nang explained that they could eat dog meat, but not before going to sea, because if they ate dog before going to sea, they could not rely on the whales to save them in emergencies. Whales could detect that the dog meat was a 'dirty' dish, and they would avoid fishermen who smelled of dog meat. (Every fisherman had a story of having been saved by a whale, or guided back to shore in a storm by a whale, whether it was they or a brother/uncle/friend who had been saved.)
The anecdote: for the conference 'Viet Nam trong the ky XX' in September 2000, I presented a paper on Vietnam's experience safeguarding intangible heritage. Making the argument that communities within Vietnam should decide for themselves how best to safeguard their own heritage, and they themselves should be able to decide what is 'tot dep' or 'lac hau' among their traditions, I offered the comparative example of then-recent efforts in Thailand to ban dog-meat restaurants (see Jeeraporn Chaisri, 'Dog and cat meat off the menu', The Nation 16 July 2000). The Thai minister in charge explained the ban - motivated by European animal rights advocates, but conveniently aimed almost exclusively at Vietnamese immigrants in North-Eastern Thailand - by saying, 'We need to prove to other people we are just as civilized as they are'. In the paper for the conference, I argued that the villagers of NE Thailand, or the people of Vietnam, should be able to decide for themselves whether they wished to eat dog meat, rather than having such decisions made by Brigitte Bardot in Paris or by others in European capitals. Extending the argument, I said that by the same token, people in Haiphong should be allowed to decide for themselves whether or not to eat Tieu Ho (cat meat), and that such decisions should be made at the community level rather than by policy-makers in Hanoi or outside of Vietnam. Little did I know that the previous year, in the wake of a rat infestation that threatened rice crops, the central authorities had banned eating cat meat! My brilliant argument is somewhat muted in the printed version...
And another (bonus) anecdote: when doing research with Kmhmu (Khomu) in northern Thailand, I joined several new year celebrations at which a dog was sacrificed and consumed (you never ate a dog from your own village, of course, but had to buy one from another village). My Kmhmu interlocutors wondered whether I would join the meal. 'You eat dog?' one asked, and when I responded as a good anthropologist, 'of course', the next question was, 'and even goat?'
Best,
Frank Proschan
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From: David Waters
Date: Tue, Dec 1, 2009 at 11:53 AM
On a cultural note, do read sections “Dog Meat” and “Dog Meat and Globalization” in Huu Ngoc’s award-winning Wandering Through Vietnamese Culture (2007). Also, read “That Fourth Leg of the Dog” in Vo Dinh Mai’s The Toad is the Emperor’s Uncle (1970) to understand why the Buddha and the dog have such a special relationship. Vo Dinh's book is one of the few, if only, Vietnamese folk narrative books that has a retelling of the story in English.
D.D. Waters