Embedded Files
From: David Waters
Date: Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 10:07 PM
To: VSG Vsg <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Drinking in Vietnam, a proxy for favoritism
Tuoi Tre News
Huy Tuong
June 9, 2011
"Why do Vietnamese drink so much?"
Enjoy
D. D. Waters
UW-M
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From: Melanie Beresford <melanie.beresford@mq.edu.au>
Date: Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 1:10 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
What the author neglects to mention is that women don't go drinking in Vietnam. If they go at all, they're only there to keep the glasses topped up. This kind of drinking is not exclusive to Vietnam either, it's very much part of the male bonding in Australian businesses too.
Melanie
--
Melanie Beresford
Associate Dean Research, Associate Professor in Economics
Faculty of Business & Economics
Macquarie University, NSW 2109, Australia
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From: Robert Schuessler
Date: Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 3:45 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Pretty consistent with what I experienced in Taiwan and Japan in the past although my experiences are a couple decades old.
In Japan it was pretty much limited to "salarymen" going out after work for food and excessive drinking. In Taiwan, it started with ceremonial guzzling accompanying an early lunch, but more cognac and hard liquor, not beer. We were usually surrounded by tables of loud drinking as well.
Bob Schuessler
Orangehelpers.org
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From: Jim Cobbe
Date: Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 6:43 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
No longer always true; in 2008 I was in the upstairs room of a restaurant in Da Nang with colleagues, and the largest table was occupied by a group of about 15-18 young women and one man, who were almost all drinking as heavily as any group of men I'd ever seen in that place. My local colleagues were as surprised as I was, and made discreet enquiries. They were employees of a commercial bank celebrating ("washing") the promotion of one of their number; the lone male, who was one of the quietest and most sober, was just another one of the junior staff in the department. The most senior of my local colleagues gave the opinion that it happened more often among young women in the private sector, but would never happen in the public sector -- where when the department I was with went out, the females (with one or two exceptions) would either abstain or only drink beer under pressure from male colleagues.
--
Jim Cobbe Department of Economics
The Florida State University Tallahassee FL 32306-2180 USA http://mailer.fsu.edu/~jcobbe
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From: Michael Gray
Date: Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 6:48 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>, jcobbe@fsu.edu
Yes, and I had to cart home three overly drunk female colleagues from a staff event just last week. We're in the private sector.
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From: Michele Thompson
Date: Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 7:28 AM
To: jcobbe@fsu.edu, Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear Everyone,
I know nothing about drinking in the business sector in Vietnam but I can't even count the number of times, starting with my first entry to Vietnam in January 1993, that I've been in groups of men and women where everyone, including myself and the other women, was drinking. I will say that in a lot of instances the women, usually including myself, only drank beer. I also know several Vietnamese women who go to a bia hoi place in Ha Noi with their husbands and other family members at least once a week and while I've never kept count to see if they drink as much as the men they certainly do drink and they most certainly are not there just to fill up the men's glasses.
My two cents worth,
Michele
Michele Thompson
Professor, Dept. of History
Southern Connecticut State University
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From: Richard Christopher Owens
Date: Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 1:08 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
My limited experience with drinking in the highlands attests to the high value Vietnamese place on drinking beer and rice wine. Beer was consumed by Kinh males but rarely with females. I did drink with male and female professors, but most of the drinking was done by the men. In Hanoi beer drinking is done at a noticeably higher level. During Tet, I was mildly surprised to see locals drinking the morning away with beer on the street corners.
Long lunches spent drinking beer was not frowned upon in Vietnam and returning to work while drunk was not a problem. and it seemed to be a sign male strength.
In the highlands, rice wine is far more common and is drank by both men and women. At a wedding, I was encouraged to drink a shot with every female at the long table (more than 15). But this was a celebration and it was one shot. The men reliably out drink the women. But I have been asked to drink with Black Thai women whenever I have been a guest in their home.
On one occasion, I was invited by the local policeman to join him and his colleagues for lunch. We drank a lot and everyone stumbled to their scooters to drive home. I thought it was humorous that everyone policemen drove home drunk. This validates the idea that drinking and driving is not viewed as a problem.
Later, I heard that I was considered a light weight because I was more drunk then the others. I have to agree, I never mastered alcohol consumption in Vietnam. I thought for a while that I had just consumed several shots back to back, where as they were able to pace themselves a little better, but this is my justification for not being able to hold my alcohol better. Personally the low grade rice wine will always be a little scary for me. On another occasion, I met a retired Australian Naval officer in Dien Bien Phu who told me he had out drank his Vietnamese business partner the previous night. This did not surprise me or him, but it did surprise his Vietnamese partner. Drinking is important in Vietnam and I hope it doesn't fade out. I like the fact that beer is found all across Vietnam and that the Vietnamese like to drink. I have heard that Vietnamese students in the USA have curbed their drinking due to the high costs. The better question is where did the notion of alcoholism come from? Does it exist in Vietnam?
Richard Owens
Ph.D Candidate
Department of Anthropology
University of Georgia
Athens, GA 30602
http://anthropology.uga.edu/people/grad_students/owens/
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From: Bill Hayton
Date: Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 1:41 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
My wife is supervising a fascinating PhD on drinking culture in the highlands. I'm only partly familiar with the thesis but from what I recall it started off as an investigation into alcohol consumption among minorities but seems to be demonstrating instead that drinking in the survey area is more closely connected with Kinh than Muong and that the more Muong had contact with Kinh, the more they drank.
Bill Hayton
Journalist and husband
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From: David Waters
Date: Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 2:29 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear All,
It is my understanding that the origins of alcoholism in Vietnam trace back to agrarian times in the weeks or months after a harvest when there was not much to do but drink alcohol or enjoy theater performances. Is this more or less correct?
Thanks
D. D. Waters
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From: Hue Duong Trong
Date: Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 7:52 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
When I worked in NGO sector in the central part of Vietnam, whenever we have guess/expats coming to visit us, even if they were friends of friends, our boss usually encouraged us to take them out for drinking. The general assumption was that it was important to show that we were friendly and sincere people and that the shortest way to reduce uncertainty and penetrate through the social etiquettes with foreigners was to socialize in unofficial drinking dinner.
The serious offical meetings between local Vietnamese and expats in the PPC sometimes were a stark contrast to the drinking lunch/dinner proceeding after that. The local did their best to make the visitors 'happy' and really pissed through one or two drinking contests.
Hue
Professional Communication Program
RMIT Vietnam International University
702 Nguyen Van Linh, District 7, HCMC, Vietnam
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From: David Brown
Date: Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 9:27 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
I suggest retitling this string "The Myth of Vietnamese Exceptionalism (the Case of Drinking"). Bonding with business associates by getting sauced at the end of the day (or even at a lunch after a business meeting) is in my experience common all over East Asia. Professional women (i.e., non-clerical) often join in, but don't feel obliged to empty their glass at every toast.
At extended family gatherings where I've been included, there's always beer during the meal and a few toasts. Serious drinking may start later, a male-only bonding ritual that starts when someone brings out a bottle of brandy or a two litre plastic bottle of ru?u nép. Again, it's not much different from the rituals practiced by my Caucasian cousins in the USA.
The practice of knocking back a glass or two of bia hoi at 9 or 10 a.m. may be unique -- at least, I'm not aware of anywhere else that it's common for non-alcoholics to drink alcoholic beverages in the morning. In Saigon or expecially Hanoi, the bia hoi is delicious any time of day, the alcohol content is low and it jolts the system less than a cafe phin.
Circling back on the Tuoi tr? story that started this thread, I am struck by the tendency of Vietnamese journalists to imagine that customary behaviors or new fads are unique to Vietnam (c.f. the thread on phu?t last week). Truth is, as travellers soon learn, there's little that's really new anywhere anymore.
David Brown
retired diplomat
sometime journalist
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From: Geoffrey Cain
Date: Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 9:44 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
David makes a good point that lots of East Asian countries share a comparable drinking cultures with Vietnam. The drinking lifestyle here can be intense, but it's not unique.
Case in point. When I worked in South Korea, farmers would offer me shots of soju (Korean vodka), 20% alcohol, at 10 in the morning. Getting messed up eased their rigorous work days and proved their manliness to the others. On some days, they would mix soju with beer and see who could down the most cups -- in single shots!
At least in Vietnam, these co-workers drink beer without a mixer.
--
Geoffrey Cain | Vietnam
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From: Dana Doan
Date: Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 10:01 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
I have a different opinion compared with some of the VSG members responding to this thread. While I do not have the data to back it up, my colleagues and I in the not-for-profit sector reckon that this heavy dependence on alcohol - particularly its accepted (over) use for business purposes - is a contributing cause of some of the social problems that we are working to address (e.g., domestic violence, persistent poverty, disability caused by avoidable traffic accidents) in Ho Chi Minh City.
Last year, I went on the hunt for not-for-profit organizations or agencies that offer services to alcoholics and/or their families in or near Ho Chi Minh City. (I recall asking VSG members for referrals.) What I found was far too little is being offered in this area. I found one self-help group, which is led only in English and was started by Expatriates. The university of social sciences and humanities in HCMC recently opened a counseling center (though my feeling was that it wasn't getting much use). And NGO Fontana (a dutch NGO) has been cooperating with a local organization to provide treatment for a whole array of addicts (alcohol, heroin, smoking, etc) on the outskirts of HCMC.
What bothered me most; however, was the reaction I got from 95% of the people whom I approached for their help to find support services for alcoholics and their families: a chuckle. Most individuals I spoke with could not fathom why I thought this was necessary. The general consensus was that drinking alcohol is a good thing and the more one could drink, the better (whether to help with one's career, to make friends and/or to prove one's masculinity).
As a philanthropic adviser to one alcohol distributor last year, I was practically laughed out the door when I suggested a safe drinking marketing campaign.
Personally, I would like to see less focus on the importance of drinking and more encouragement to individuals that abstain or who limit themselves to responsible enjoyment of the beverage rather than focus on the quantity of consumption.
Sincerely,
Dana
--
Dana R.H. Doan
LIN Center for Community Development
71-73-75 Hai Ba Trung, Lau 6
Phuong Ben Nghe, Quan 1
T.P. Ho Chi Minh, Viet Nam
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From: Robert Schuessler
Date: Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 10:13 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
At least in Phu Yen province there are a number of anti-drinking and driving billboards. Like many such billboards (anti-HIV, gambling, etc.), they are rather amateurish, but they are in fairly prominent locations. I also have no sense of whether they are read and respected at all.
Bob Schuessler
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From: Tai, Hue-Tam
Date: Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 12:11 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
My two cents:
Alcoholism does exist in Vietnam, as Dana Doan and Schluesser attest. There are words in the Vietnamese language to reflect this: say ruou-- drunk-- and nghien ruou--alcoholic.
drunkenness is indeed linked to domestic violence and violence tout court. One of my cousins was an alcoholic who beat his wife and children. His daughter married at 16 to escape from his alcohol induced violence. As a policeman, he was even worse toward the poor souls who came before him. His misdeeds eventually caught up with him.
I did witness a drinking contest a few years ago, not to seal a deal, but to estalish relations--in particular relations of authority-- as prelude to negtiations between an official from Hanoi and a local official. No business was conducted during the lunchtime drinking session in which the two men tried to drink one another under the table. My Hanoi friend explained to me that it was important for him to show that he could hold down his beer. after lunch, both men retired to sleep it off. I, who had not drunk a drop was perforce compelled to do the same. Business took place the following morning, and my friend declared himself satisfied. I then understood why the negotiations that took less than one hour had to be conducted in person rather than by telephone or email. The drinking contest was an integral part of them.
As for traffic incidents, I am sure that diminished attention is partly responsible, just as alcohol consumption lowers inhibition and raises voices literally as well as figuratively.
"Ruou vao, loi ra" is quite different in meaning from in vino veritas.
Hue Tam Ho Tai
Harvard
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From: Ben Quick
Date: Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 12:17 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dana, you make a really good point. And David, you as well. In the
U.S., it's well-documented that Super Bowl Sunday and other holidays
that involve male-centric drinking activities also produce the highest
rates of domestic abuse. It really is a complicated issue. Should we
applaud the fact that women in Viet Nam are drinking more frequently
and openly as a sign of positive movement on the gender equality
spectrum in S.E. Asia? I suppose so. But, but, but.......
Ben Quick
University of Arizona
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From: Anh-Minh Do
Date: Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 12:31 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Hue Tam Ho Tai,
Are you sure that "ruou" is the correct translation of "drunk". From what I understand, ruou means liquor or wine. Drunk is Say or Xinh. Just as in the phrase "Khong Say, Khong Ve" (Not Drunk, Don't Go Home).
Cheers,
Minh
--
Anh-Minh Do
Indochina Tourist & Trade
¡¡¡Vi?t Nam oi!!! (the bilingual edition)
Mic Oi! Open Mic Nights in Saigon
Skype: caligarn
----------
From: Tai, Hue-Tam
Date: Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 12:50 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Minh
I should have put "say ruou" in quotation marks. I wrote say ruou and I did mean " say ruou" and not just " ruou."
Hue Tam
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From: Thi-Bay Miradoli
Date: Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 12:51 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dana,
you bring up so many important issues.
When talking to friends/colleagues who like to drink I was often surprised whenever they proudly referred to themselves as alcoholics. I was used to a context (in Europe or the US) where liking to drink or drinking a lot was different than being an alcoholic. Most alcoholics I know do not proudly announce it during social functions or business dealings. It then occurred to me that when friends/colleagues in Vietnam say "I'm fun cause I'm an alcoholic" what they really mean is "I like to drink/I drink a lot"...Which is different (though not mutually exclusive) than having developed a physiological dependency to alcohol and having to drink frequently (rather than necessarily a lot) to avoid physiological episodes of withdraw. Also "alcoholics do not necessarily in a social context and often do so alone and/or secretly to feed their dependency of which they are ashamed. So, I wonder, is there such a concept as the pathological dependency to alcohol (different than frequent/copious social drinking) How one makes the difference between drinking often/a lot and being an "alcoholic" especially when conducting a survey or discussing support programs with community partners? Or when pointing out detrimental effect of alcohol (in addition to deteriorating health, traffic accidents and abuse). I noticed that the author of the article that started this thread also used "alcoholic" to mean "someone who likes to drink/drinks a lot".
Thi Bay Miradoli
Consultant
HCMC
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From: Ben Quick
Date: Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 1:06 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
This line right here--"First, people in America only drink with family
and close friends, who they only meet every two or three months. Every
time they get together, they only drink two or three bottles to oil
the social wheels and facilitate the conversation."--is all a person
needs to read to know the author has no clue about American culture.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say the U.S. has a far more
serious issue with alcohol/alcohol abuse/alcoholism than Viet Nam.
Spending one weekend in a college town---say Tucson, AZ--would clear
up any misconceptions about the role of alcohol in the
States--especially among young people.
Cheers!
----------
From: Jim Cobbe
Date: Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 3:35 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
It's not only East Asia -- much of the former Soviet Union is similar. In Armenia, when I visited a local official, it was routine to be offered brandy, even if it was 10 a.m. in the morning (and I was advised to always accept if I wanted credibility), and semi-official meals always involved copious quantities of beer, wine, and brandy (or occasionally vodka); and could easily last 4 hours (with lots of drinking between courses).
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From: Tai, Hue-Tam
Date: Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 3:55 AM
To: "jcobbe@fsu.edu" <jcobbe@fsu.edu>, Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
It's known that alcoholism is a scourge in Russia and has had specific demographic consequences, i.e., Russia, longevity has actually been reduced overall; and the longevity gap bettween men and women has increased. The centrality of alcohol in Russian culture is a well -known fact and I do not think it has equivalents in many other societies.
What I find fascinating are the many types of foods designated specifically as "an nhau."
Hue Tam Ho Tai
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From: Melanie Beresford
Date: Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 5:19 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Agreed. But alcohol for breakfast is not unique either. In Belgrade they serve burek (flake pastry with cheese inside) and Turkish coffee with slivovic (cherry brandy). That's a great winter warmer.
cheers,
Melanie
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From: Melanie Beresford
Date: Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 5:32 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Part of the 'streets paved with gold' syndrome? No different in Australia, or Japan.
Melanie
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From: Melanie Beresford
Date: Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 5:35 AM
To: jcobbe@fsu.edu, Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Stalin was reputed to drink water while making everyone else consume vodka.
Melanie
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From: Raymond Mallon <raymallon@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 6:40 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
When working in the shearing sheds in north island New Zealand (in mid-1970s), we would start work at 5am and stop for breakfast at 7 am. Was not at all unusual to have a bottle of beer for breakfast.
The next time I drank beer for breakfast was when travelling Vietnam (as part of an economic assessment team) in the late 1980s. My impression is that there is less drinking in (central government) office hours in recent years, but it would be interesting to have some data on this.
_______________________________
Raymond Mallon
Economist
2A Pham Su Manh, Ha Noi
----------
From: Le Dong Phuong
Date: Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 8:12 PM
To: ray@raymondmallon.com, Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
You all got a glimpse on what the drinking is serving for. But one more reason to drink: you are a very special guest of an office, commune or whatever. I have observed how a party cell meeting was wellcoming a 'd?ng chí M?' by having him washing down a bowl of rice brandy. I myself have been requested to stay in a Thai hamlet in Nghe An overnight since I was the very first Hanoian coming on foot to the place. The party was off course fully 'furnished' by rice brandy (supplied by the Kinh people) and a 'ru?u c?n' made locally.
Le Dong Phuong, PhD.
Director
Center for Higher and Vocational Education Studies
Vietnam Institute of Education Science
101 Tran Hung Dao
Hanoi - VIETNAM
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From: Tobias RETTIG
Date: Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 5:46 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear List,
Just curious:
Are there any interesting anecdotes about the importance of drinking in the Vietnamese nationalist and communist movements?
I am sure our comrade Balazs could regale us with stories from the world of Eastern European communism, but what about Vietnam?
Best regards,
Tobias
Tobias RETTIG, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor of Southeast Asian Studies
School of Social Sciences | Singapore Management University
90 Stamford Road | Singapore 178903 | Republic of Singapore
From: dfp
Date: Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 11:33 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear list,
there have been quite a few very entertaining stories around the whole issue, but I am still struggling to summarize the topic.
What do we have?
- In Vietnam, you go out and drink to prove your manliness.
- You go out and drink to facilitate business.
- You facilitate social relations.
- Thus, quite a few Vietnamese seem to be "proud" of being drinkers.
- Alcohol is also drunk in the morning.
- Nevertheless, the beer ("bia hoi") is often relatively light, compared to other drinking habits around the world.
At the same time, we said:
- None of this is obviously unique to Vietnam.
- Alcohol is a quite important factor of business life in Asia.
- Alcohol is an important facilitator for male bonding almost everywhere in the World, including the "West".
So what does this all lead to?
Are we looking at a world-wide problem that is dealt with differently in different societies? For example, it is alright in the US to drink and get drunk, but not alright to call yourself proudly an "alcoholic"?
Is this simply another example on how Vietnam has not yet fully developed into a modern society, where rules and regulations in society take over to avoid harm to the society as a whole? (see: traffic rules, codes of conduct, hygiene standards, etc.).
Or is this really something maybe not particular "Vietnamese", but "regional/Asian" hidden behind the things a lot of us have witnessed?
I'd be quite interested in attempting to grasp the bigger picture, as much as I am entertained by the anecdotes.
David
~~~~~~
David Frogier de Ponlevoy
Journalist trainer
The Voice of Vietnam
45, Ba Trieu
Hanoi
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From: Michael Gray
Date: Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 12:05 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
David,
Stanton Peele has done studies of alcohol use in different cultures, particularly in European cultures. He finds a link between the 'extremism' of northern, beer-drinking European cultures, with both high rates of alcoholism and temperance movements (ie. booze is great/booze is evil), versus southern, wine-drinking European cultures, with high-but-steady use of alcohol but, apparently, much lower rates of alcoholism, liver disease, etc (ie. moderate boozing is just a fact of life, like drinking water).
Peele's research has an agenda - he is actively trying to prove the Alcoholics Anonymous view that 'alcoholism is a disease' is nonsense, and therefore temperance-based solutions are irrational. I don't really have an informed opinion on that, although his arguments made sense to me when I read them.
I came across Peele's work when I was helping a young Vietnamese woman with some early-stage research on alcohol abuse in highland minority communities. She herself came from a family with alcohol abuse problems, and she wanted her research to 'prove' that alcohol was bad. After one trip to a cassava wine-drinking community to do some research, she changed her approach. I think we probably could see a very big difference between the cassava-drinking Central Highlanders and ruou ngo drinking Hmong of the north, for example, in terms of alcohol and its social impact.
I don't think Asian cultures can be divided so neatly into 'beer vs wine' cultures as in Europe. But the social impact of boozing is surely an area worthy of study. Cheers!
Mike
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From: Anh-Minh Do
Date: Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 12:16 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear all,
To bring some levity to the alcohol discussion, have any of you heard a famous phrase: "trà tam, ru?u t?"? Meaning literally, "tea three, liquor four"...meaning when there are three men, drink tea, when there are four, drink liquor. I love the phrases like this in Vietnamese. Another one I like very much is "Chìm xu?ng t?i b?n" - meaning "the boat sinks at the dock" - which, as it has been explained to me, means it is better to pass out drunk at your doorstep than far from home.
Cheers,
Minh
--
Anh-Minh Do
Indochina Tourist & Trade
¡¡¡Vi?t Nam oi!!! (the bilingual edition)
Mic Oi! Open Mic Nights in Saigon
Skype: caligarn
----------
From: Le Dong Phuong
Date: Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 2:26 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
No, but quite a few are 'forced' to joint drinking parties to keep the relations/businesses may be we have to consider the classification of alcoholic drinks (status of drinkers?):
- cheap home-made brandy/wide (now the cheap Chinese imitation of these)
- beers (even further cheap "bia c?" and the more expensive "bia nhà máy")
- imported alcoholic drinks (especially Whisky)
Le Dong Phuong, PhD.
Director
Center for Higher and Vocational Education Studies
Vietnam Institute of Education Science
101 Tran Hung Dao
Hanoi - VIETNAM
----------
From: Melanie Beresford
Date: Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 3:09 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
DFP's summary is interesting. If I try to look at the big picture in terms of my own culture, I would say that 'proud to be alcoholic' was an acceptable position 50+ years ago (depending on what exactly one means by alcoholism), but the abusive features of alcoholism have become much more apparent (to society generally) more recently. Also beer drinking is less important than it used to be, our southern European immigrant communities have persuaded us that wine is better (and not unrelatedly, wine is a major export industry).
There are a number of possible reasons for these changes in the drinking culture and I think some of them could usefully be applied to the Vietnamese case. Off the top of my head:
- There is a link between the rise of feminism and a better understanding of the detrimental effects of high alcohol consumption, particularly as they are manifested in early male deaths, increased violence (including, but not exclusively, domestic violence), sexual abuse, etc. This change is particularly noticeable in indigenous communities where alcohol is a major problem and powerful women have been able to get some of the remoter areas declared 'dry'. But women have generally been a force for more civilized modes of alcohol consumption - abolition of exclusively male drinking holes has been important in this.
- So men and women are much more likely to drink together rather than separately. This is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, mixed gender drinking tends to reduce a lot of the more aggressive male behaviour patterns. On the other hand, women are increasingly suffering from the health problems associated with high levels of alcohol consumption. Women are biologically less able to cope with large amounts of alcohol, so equality in this case is not so great.
- In areas where women have not made serious inroads - such as male-dominated workplaces (very notably professional football teams) and top management - the male bonding etc persists. As far as management goes, this serves to perpetuate the exclusion of women from leading roles as it prevents the sort of network building that is needed for rapid promotion. Younger women can join in, but once kids come into the picture, it's basically impossible. Seems like there's a vicious circle here.
I don't know whether this means that Vietnamese women should drink more! Several posters have mentioned women drinkers in the private sector - I'd be interested to know how this compares with the situation above.
- Feminism is not the only force for change, however. Increasing global competition and the rise of 'managerialism' have also played a part. In my youth, the 'liquid lunch' was quite acceptable, though it destroyed productivity in the afternoon. These days people are more likely to drink water with their lunch and save their evenings for alcohol. Also the Fringe Benefits Tax has reduced the consumption of alcohol at business lunches. Liquid lunches are still popular among Vietnamese men - does this account for the low productivity of SOEs? ;)
cheers,
Melanie
--
Melanie Beresford
Associate Dean Research, Associate Professor in Economics
Faculty of Business & Economics
Macquarie University, NSW 2109, Australia
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