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Tom Miller milltom at gmail.com
Tue Jun 7 16:28:15 PDT 2016
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/08/opinion/bob-kerrey-in-vietnam.html?
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Anh Pham gaupvn at gmail.com
Tue Jun 7 20:48:40 PDT 2016
Madame Ninh wrote:
Mr. Kerrey said he would step down if his chairmanship was detrimental to
the project. Such a gesture would show self-respect and grace, and would be
appreciated by the Vietnamese.
------
I have no idea what Vietnamese she's referring to. Definitely not THIS
Vietnamese. Polls on Vnexpress and a few other genuine outlets consistently
show overwhelming support for Kerrey's appointment, often at minimum 85%.
Either she's not doing her research properly or she does not think highly
of the masses' intelligence.
There is a side note I want to make to our American friends here.
The Kerrey opponent camp loves quoting American Vietnamese studies scholars
from this list who support their views. To think clearly about it, it is
rather a silly thing to do because there is an element of circular
reasoning embedded in that thought process. The number one concern of
fellow American VS scholars about Kerrey's appointment is not whether his
past actions could be considered a crime - on that I think the consensus
was clear - but whether his appointment is insensitive/offensive to the
Vietnamese people. The more you know Vietnam the more protective and
sensitive you are to the feelings of the Vietnamese the more concerned you
are about any potential backslash such an appointment may cause. So you
express your concerns and worries. But then some people quote you and
convey your concerns and worries about the feelings of the Vietnamese to
the Vietnamese to influence how they should feel. It goes like this:
American scholar: I am afraid the appointment may be offensive to the
Vietnamese people.
Interpreter to the Vietnamese people: Our esteemed and very famous American
scholar from ABC university here thinks this appointment is offensive to
you, dear Vietnamese people.
That's sort of bull, ain't it? The only thing that should matter is whether
the Vietnamese people have forgiven Kerrey enough to support his
appointment. What should not matter is how his fellow Americans think the
Vietnamese should think about his appointment. Some people go as far as
quoting Europeans who of course vent their anger about America's arrogance
in appointing a killer to an academic position. What the hell does a
European common folk know about the intricacies of this family affair
anyway? This is one of those cases when outsiders' objective views are
neither called for nor needed.
The only way to decide the right attitude to have is to get insights of
what the majority of the Vietnamese people think through a reliable poll
that asks questions such as:
Do you support Kerrey's appointment on FUV's Board of Trustees?
Do you support a complete reconciliation and full normalization of relation
with the US?
Have you completely forgiven all atrocities committed by US forces during
the Vietnam war?
And so on.
You may be surprised to learn that the common folks of Vietnam do not think
the way the Vietnamese elitists think. They are ready and even eager to
forgive and to forget. The elitists may frown at this and call the common
folks oversimplistic. I beg to differ with this unfavorable assessment. I
join the common folks in the firm belief that the only way to make good of
the sacrifices of the millions Vietnamese and tens of thousands of
Americans lost during the war is to have a fully normalized relationship
between the two countries. By fully normal I mean no contingencies, no
conditions, no qualifications, no backward looking, no nothing. Together we
must forgive each other completely and embrace each other fully so we can
move forward with the least friction. The Kerrey affair is the kind of
bumps in the road that we should not even pay attention to as it does not
do anything but slow us down.
Again, I am typing on a phone so please forgive all errors. Thanks.
Anh Pham
Attached image is screenshot from VNexpress's online poll.
What do you think about Bob Kerrey's appointment as Chairman of FUV's Board
of Trustees
Agree: 84%
Disagree: 16%
David Brown nworbd at gmail.com
Tue Jun 7 22:36:24 PDT 2016
Dear Anh, Setting aside the ethical question, which to me is both important
and something that honest people may differ on, there is also a tactical
question.
The tactical question here does not turn on whether ordinary Vietnamese
support Bob Kerrey's appointment as Chairman of the FUV Board of Trustees.
>From deep in the Mekong Delta, where I am at the moment, I can testify to
the truth of your perception that, by a large majority, the man in the
street is quite OK with Kerrey in that role. But then it is also true
*anything* perceived as drawing the US and Vietnam closer together will win
the approval of a large majority of Vietnamese, especially in the wake of
the US President's visit.
The tactical question is whether, over time, Kerrey as chairman will be a
good thing for FUV. Though its charter is quite liberal, FUV's leaders must
still navigate through a great many practical tests of the new
institution's academic independence. As these matters are sorted out, it
will be Vietnam's political elite that chooses whether or not to fully
honor the promises that have been made. The man in the street will not be
consulted.
Regards,
David Brown
freelance writer/analyst
Fresno, California USA
Anh Pham gaupvn at gmail.com
Tue Jun 7 22:51:15 PDT 2016
David,
Your concerns are legitimate. I assure you though that the opinion
breakdown reflects the sentiments I observe online in perhaps Vietnam's
best educated cohort. Take the Fulbright alumni community as an example. I
am almost certain a majority of these individuals support Kerrey as they
too see what I see that examples like this are obstacles on the road to
full normalization. Most people have problems with Madame Ninh's half
hearted tolerance and forgiveness. I welcome Kerrey's announcement
yesterday to stay for reasons other than Kerrey related. Kerrey carries
with him the sort of stigma that keeps haunting the bilateral relation.
People like me need to see him ride through this storm to erase that
stigma, to break the curse. That would be one fewer hoop for the
relationship to jump.
Gau
Hiep Duc Hiep.Duc at environment.nsw.gov.au
Wed Jun 8 00:16:02 PDT 2016
There is another bigger question: that is the strategic implication of this debate. It is not an academic exercise anymore and in the battle of ideas, symbol is everything.
It may be irrational to think that if Kerrey somehow resigns due to pressure from opposing voices winning over the view of a majority of Vietnamese, it will not only deal a blow to hard-working effort of the reconciliation but also a win for the pro-chinese conservatives or a loss to the reformists. But this is what I see in the undercurrent of the lively social network (There is not much public space such as the press for the people to voice their opinions and the social media network is the place you can gauge and see the undercurrents). Kerry controversy is such a symbol.
Most people who support Kerrey appointment as a path to the future tends to be young, progressive, anti-chinese in the East Sea dispute, fed-up with the establishment and very much adore Obama during his recent trip to Vietnam, especially his speech on the benefits of having and allowing dissenting voice to the country. For them a shift to the US to counterbalance China threat and the prospect of somehow their country will have a civic space is important. While people who has the opposing view tends to be in the establishment and very cautious to counter or provoke China. The ‘Bernie Sander” factor against the establishment or elites is real and very strong.
The majority of Vietnamese, as represented in the first group, decided to act like Mandela in relation to the former enemies. On the eve of taking power, at the ANC leadership meeting, the vindictive elites planned to strike down the Boer anthem and the retribution against many enemies, but Mandela override them in having both the Boer anthem and ANC anthem as national anthems of South Africa and no retribution. It was such a strategic decision that later on, all of the ANC elites agreed that was such a wise magnanimous decision of the winner and truly made South Africa a healed, reconciled nation without being torn apart.. The ‘monsters’ at that time such as Coetsee (Justice minister) and Barnard (Intelligence chief) were moved when recalled about Mandela
“I interviewed Coetsee about those meetings and, as Reinders had done, he wept at the recollection of Mandela, whom he defined as "the incarnation of the great Roman virtues – dignitas, gravitas, honestas". Barnard was incapable of weeping but he came close, referring to Mandela always during the seven hours that we spoke as "the old man", as if he were talking about his own father. “
(John Cartlin, The Guardian http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/07/nelson-mandela-freedom-fighter-john-carlin)
This moment in Vietnam could be compared to that moment of strategic decision in SA (to retribute or to forgive) to have a healed future. But this time there is no Mandela for Vietnam (only the disfranchised youth, intellectuals, dissidents in the social media network) to voice their view in an attempt to oppose the vindictive establishment elites.
Nguyen Duc Hiep
Atmospheric Scientist
Office of Environment & Heritage, NSW,
Australia
Thomas Jandl thjandl at yahoo.com
Wed Jun 8 05:04:48 PDT 2016
Anh Pham,
I think the "Vietnamese people" who everybody invokes so liberally, just have a better understanding of what Kerrey goes through than we Western university types -- and some Vietnamese people as well, or course -- who have never been through war. Most Vietnamese know, either first-hand, or from the tales of family members who did.
I recently had an email conversation with a friend who told me that her father, who never talks about his time in the war, released a one-liner at the dinner table that went about like this: "I am not judging him, because I did things during the war I am not proud of, and that's that." End of conversation, back to dinner, don't ask.
The Kerrey debate is, as you say, pushed largely by people for whom war is an abstraction, a topic of study. _________________________________ Thomas Jandl, Ph.D. Non-Resident Scholar Viet Nam National University -- Ha Noi Partner, TJMR Asia Consultants Washington: 443-901-2612 Viet Nam mobile: 0121 402 3242thjandl at yahoo.com
Joe Berry joetracyberry at gmail.com
Wed Jun 8 10:01:26 PDT 2016
It is fine-sounding to talk about a fully normal relationship with no contingencies etc., but this is not descriptive of the real world where there are still gross differences in power (and they are growing not shrinking, both between nations, classes, and individuals). It is sort of like talking about “free” trade or “free” markets when neither are ever really free (all take place within government-structured systems of laws and practices). If power relations are grossly unequal (as they are) one side is much “freer” than the other. The weaker side my be forced, tactically, to take a bad bargain to avoid a worse one, or for other reasons may do so, but that does not change the basic relationship or the way we, as academics trying to study and understand reality, should try to discuss it.
Just my 2 cents from a non-VN expert, who is very interested and has spent some time there.
Joe Berry
Dien Nguyen nguyendien519 at gmail.com
Wed Jun 8 20:48:04 PDT 2016
Another voice about Kerrey and FUV: an open letter to Ms Ton Nu Thi Ninh
from Mr Vo Van Tao, a former soldier and journalist.
Nguyễn Điền
Independent Researcher
Canberra
THƯ NGỎ GỬI BÀ TÔN NỮ THỊ NINH
Posted by adminbasam <http://anhbasam04.wordpress.com/> on 08/06/2016
*Võ Văn Tạo*
8-6-2016
Thưa bà!
[image: Cựu binh, nhà báo Võ Văn Tạo (phải) và nhà văn Thái Kế Toại. Nguồn:
internet] <https://anhbasam.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/h1144.jpg>
Cựu binh, nhà báo Võ Văn Tạo (phải) và nhà văn Thái Kế Toại. Nguồn: internet
Là một trong nhiều người đặc biệt quan tâm sự kiện cựu Thượng nghị sĩ Mỹ
Bob Kerrey vừa được các sáng lập viên Đại học Fulbright VN tín nhiệm cử giữ
chức Chủ tịch HĐQT trường này, lại biết quan điểm của bà kịch liệt phản đối
Bob Kerrey giữ cương vị ấy qua phát ngôn của bà trên truyền thông và lá thư
ngỏ của bà gửi người dân VN và những người bạn Mỹ mà Vietnamnet và một vài
báo VN vừa đăng tải, tôi mạo muội có mấy lời cùng bà.
Từng là Đại sứ đặc mệnh toàn quyền VN tại EU, là trí thức được ăn học chu
đáo, có thâm niên dài trong ngoại giao và có nhiều bạn bè trong giới chức
Mỹ, tôi nghĩ bà hoàn toàn có tư cách để bày tỏ quan điểm về việc này.
Còn tôi, chỉ là một cựu chiến binh Sư đoàn 304 QĐNDVN, từng tham dự Chiến
dịch Quảng Trị từ tháng 12-1971 đến tháng 2-1973, chứng kiến rất nhiều đồng
đội mười tám, đôi mươi vĩnh viễn không trở về, từng cầm súng chĩa về phía
chiến tuyến bên Bob Kerrey. Trước khi nghỉ hưu, tôi là nhà báo. Tôi nghĩ
rằng tôi cũng có tư cách để bày tỏ quan điểm về việc này.
Thưa bà, là viên chức ngoại giao lâu năm, lại từng giữ cương vị Đại sứ,
chắc bà rõ chẳng kém tôi về vô vàn trở ngại, khó khăn trong quá trình hàn
gắn Việt – Mỹ. Nào là ý thức hệ xơ cứng 2 phe, nào là khuynh hướng cực đoan
ở 2 nước, nào là mặc cảm thua trận nhục nhã, đau đớn mất mát khi hơn 58
nghìn binh sĩ Mỹ tử trận, nào là “mối căm thù sâu sắc quân xâm lược Mỹ đã
gieo rắc đau thương tang tóc trên 2 miền đất nước ta” – như truyền thông và
giáo dục VN hằng tuyên truyền từ nhiều năm trước, nào là âm mưu bá chủ thế
giới của chú Sam – sen đầm quốc tế…
Nhưng tôi chắc chắn một điều rằng, sự từng trải trực tiếp chứng kiến đau
thương mất mát của VN nơi bà không thể bằng nơi tôi. Bà chưa từng có cái
cảm giác như tôi, vào một đêm hạ tuần tháng 12-1971, cùng đoàn trinh sát
của Sư 304 lội qua thượng nguồn Bến Hải, chuẩn bị lót ổ cho Mùa Hè đỏ lửa,
đặt chân lên bờ Nam, đã cúi nhặt một hòn đá lên nghẹn ngào hôn – phút giây
xúc động của một con em cán bộ miền Nam tập kết ra Bắc, trở về “giải phóng”
quê hương “đang rên siết dưới gót giày quân xâm lược Mỹ”. Mùa Hè 1972 khốc
liệt ấy, gần hai mươi nghìn đồng đội tôi vĩnh viễn không về.
Năm 2014, trong một lần gặp gỡ nhóm trí thức dấn thân ở Đà Lạt, có người
hỏi tôi: anh có từng tham gia cách mạng không? Tôi nói có, đi lính, tham
gia Quảng Trị 1972. Hỏi: anh nghĩ gì về chuyện ấy? Đáp: đó là một kỷ niệm
đẹp và oai hùng thời trai trẻ, đã có mặt ở mặt trận khốc liệt nhất; nhưng
đó là một kỷ niệm buồn. Hỏi: vì sao buồn? Tôi kể lại câu chuyện 33 năm sau
Mùa hè đỏ lửa, tôi tìm về thăm gia đình chị Cúc – anh Hiếu ở Mai Lộc, Cam
Lộ, Quảng Trị (cơ sở cách mạng – nơi tổ công tác binh vận F304 chúng tôi
trú đóng 1 tuần cuối tháng 4-1972) thấy đời sống gia đình anh chị và bà con
lối xóm sa sút đến ngỡ ngàng so với trước khi “được giải phóng”. Tôi mặc
cảm mình có tội và muốn làm cái gì đó cho Quảng Trị đau thương một thời, vì
mình đã góp tay nhuộm đỏ miền Nam, xây đắp nên thể chế mà chóp bu chỉ biết
có dối trá, vị kỷ, vô cảm với bất hạnh của nhân dân, với tụt hậu và an nguy
của đất nước.
Thưa bà, trong cuộc nói chuyện với khoảng 2.000 sinh viên Hà Nội mới đây
tại Mỹ Đình, Tổng thống Obama đã nhắc lại quá khứ khó khăn của 2 nước, nhắc
lại công lao to lớn hàn gắn Mỹ – dViệt của các cựu binh Mỹ từng tham chiến
ở VN, trong đó có Bob Kerrey. Ông cũng nói, quan hệ đối tác, bạn bè nồng ấm
hôm nay giũa 2 nước cựu thù là bài học điển hình cho nhân loại về biết lấy
yêu thương thay cho thù hận, hướng tới tương lai, vì lợi ích nhân dân 2
nước.
Tôi hiểu, bà phản đối Bob vì ông ấy từng gây vụ thảm sát hơn 20 người dân ở
Bến tre đêm 25-2-1969. Bà đặt vấn đề: nước Mỹ không còn ai để làm Chủ tịch
HĐQT ĐH Fulbright hay sao?
Thưa bà, chiến tranh bao giờ cũng là điều tồi tệ, là nơi diễn ra nhiều hành
động tội lỗi, dù ở phía bên nào. Tôi cũng còn nhớ, rất nhiều người trên
khắp thế giới, kể cả nhân dân Mỹ, Thủ tướng quốc gia TBCN xa xôi là Thụy
Điển cũng rầm rộ xuống đường phản đối giới diều hâu Mỹ, đòi Mỹ rút quân,
chấm dứt chiến tranh. Dù vô tình, hay cố ý bởi nguyên nhân bi kịch cụ thể
nào đó (trong đó có tình huống đối phương trà trộn trong thường dân, thường
dân tiếp tay cho kẻ địch…), việc quân đội Mỹ gây thiệt mạng cho dân thường
VN mãi mãi là tội ác. Suy rộng ra, nước Mỹ (cụ thể là giới chủ chiến Mỹ) đã
gây tội ác ở Việt Nam.
Theo bà, Bob đã gây tội ác thì không xứng chủ tịch ĐH Fulbright VN (?). Với
tư duy ấy, VN không nên có quan hệ ngoại giao với Mỹ, Nhật, Pháp, Trung
Quốc. Thế giới không còn quốc gia nào để bang giao hay sao? Mà lại “chơi”
với mấy nước ấy?
Thưa bà, trên truyền thông, Bob đã nhìn nhận trách nhiệm về vụ thảm sát và
ông nói điều tồi tệ ấy dằn vặt lương tâm ông suốt phần đời còn lại. Ông tự
hứa sẽ làm hết sức để trả món nợ lương tâm ấy bằng giúp đỡ nhân dân Việt
Nam mà ông hết sức ngưỡng mộ. Tôi tin, một trong các lý do để ông ngưỡng mộ
nhân dân Việt Nam là đức tính vị tha, lòng nhân ái, độ lượng, khoan dung,
cao thượng và tế nhị của người VN (tôi chưa biết các lý do khác). Tạo điều
kiện cho Bob trả món nợ lương tâm, cũng là biểu hiện của các đức tính ấy,
thưa bà. Nhận định này của tôi trong việc này cũng tương tự của Bí thư
Thành ủy TP HCM Đinh La Thăng vừa phát biểu với báo giới VN.
Thưa bà,
Bằng những lời gan ruột trên đây, tôi mạo muội mong bà nghiền ngẫm thêm nữa
và không khăng khăng quan điểm cũ. Ngoài thư này, mong bà đọc thêm nhiều ý
kiến của giới trẻ, trí thức cao niên khả kính hoan nghênh Bob, ngõ hầu có
được quan điểm khách quan hơn.
Trân trọng!
Võ Văn Tạo
Nha Trang, Khánh Hòa
https://anhbasam.wordpress.com/2016/06/08/8653-thu-ngo-gui-ba-ton-nu-thi-ninh/#more-167957
Thaveeporn Vasavakul Thaveeporn at mail.kvsinter.com
Fri Jun 10 03:24:47 PDT 2016
Thanks for the update.
After reading some ten articles, I can't help but wondering whether family members and friends of the deceased and citizens living in the area(s) affected - ?p Th?nh Hòa, xã Th?nh Phong, huy?n Th?nh Phú in Ben Tre province - have voiced their opinions. At the leadership level,I notice the opinion piece from Dinh La Thang, HCM City Party Chief, but I am also interested in what Ms. Nguyen Thi Kim Ngan, chair of the National Assembly, who is from Ben Tre province, may say.
Also, I wonder whether Mr. Kerrey has taken any initiatives to help those/the areas directly affected.
Thaveeporn Vasavakul, Ph.D
GoSFI - Governance Support Facility Initiatives
Anh Pham gaupvn at gmail.com
Fri Jun 10 06:27:44 PDT 2016
After long years of illnesses, the mother of a friend of mine finally
passed away. She was in her mid-90s and Vietnamese usually rejoice at that
longevity. But my lady friend was mourning her mom's loss just terribly.
Everyday she would buy a large bunch if roses to bring to the pagoda where
the mom's soul had been symbollicaly deposited where she would pray and cry
her eyes out all day. This went on for some time until one day the head
monk said these words to her:
- The reason you cry so much and offer your mother roses everyday is to
apologize for all your absences when she was still alive. But know that
even if you had spent every minute with her or brought her roses every day
while she was still alive, you would still have felt this way when she's
gone. So make peace with yourself.
Upon hearing those words, I took them to heart so I could use that wisdom
to guide me when necessary.
The monk was talking about the void, the hollowness we feel inside when we
realize we caused or think we caused someone pain/hurt/suffering/injustice.
I look back upon some of the things that I have said or things I have done
that hurt others often unintentionally, and the uncountable number of
hearts I have broken in all five continents but especially in Asia, and I
feel the sense of emptiness already unbearable so I can only imagine what
bottomless void people like Kerrey feel. What I learn from my own
experience trying to correct past mistakes, a lesson further consolidated
by such wisdom as that shared by the monk mentioned above, was that it was
often ill-advised or impractical to go back to the victims to apologize. In
my younger years I maintained a growing list codenamed NYC (Người yêu cũ -
Ex girlfriends) to which I added all the people I would like to look into
their eyes and apologize to very tenderly but who probably would still
strangle me with their bare hands if they could. For a while I tried to
work them from behind the scene like incognito-ly sending 30 bucks for a
marathon fundraiser one ran or said a few kind words to get another a job.
But doing so was not only impractical as it hardly filled the void I felt
inside but also probably deadly dangerous if my wife had found out that
like a junkie I was "borrowing" the kids' college fund to support some
unhealthy habits.
As I got no redemption from my direct contacts with my victims, I realize
this very important lesson that changed my life overnight. I realized that
I could not fill the void piecemeal or piece of anything one by one;
instead I needed to build a mountain. That divine revelation transformed me
overnight from a narcissist to Mother Teresa. I no longer focused on
apologizing to every victim of my past but in a pay it forward manner I act
on their behalf to improve some other lives somehow. Over time, I have
built a modest mound of my own to act as a counterbalance to the guilty
feelings. These days I must admit I hardly think about the NYCs anymore.
It appears undeniably evident to me that Kerrey is applying the same
method. His victims are admittedly dead so burning tonnes and tonnes of
incense would probably do no one any good. But look how he has helped to
change many lives directly and by creating a ripple effect with his good
deeds providing them with education opportunities. From that angle, life is
much simpler, more human, not dry and stiff like (teasingly) uncle McHale's
academic writing full of quotes from dead people, but fun and casual and
childlike and colloquial like the SCOTUS justices debating Muhammed Ali and
Islam.
That was my hai cents directly broadcast to you from Universal Studio,
Orlando, Florida this morning. It is 78 degrees F outside with a pleasant
breeze.
Anh Pham
Thaveeporn Vasavakul Thaveeporn at mail.kvsinter.com
Fri Jun 10 09:51:16 PDT 2016
(1) Most of the articles I have read (either shared through the VSG forum or on FB) are from intellectuals and former combatants elsewhere, not the area(s) where the incident took place. These writers explained that they wrote the articles to support Mr. Kerrey because Mr. Kerrey had apologized to "the Vietnamese" and had asked for "their" forgiveness.
(2) Thanks Chelsea Ngoc Minh Nguyen for sharing the article “Th?m sát Th?nh Phong: 'Tha th? mà có quên du?c dâu'” (Thanh Phong Massacre: Forgiving and Forgetting?) which records voices of survivors and witnesses. As I understand it, these local inhabitants felt that they had no choice but to forgive (“nhung thù thì làm gì du?c n?a”’) and that they could forgive but could not forget (tha th? mà có quên du?c dâu). I notice that the survivors and witnesses expressed some hope that the SEAL team would return to the site:
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I still hope they will return to at least help the victim’s families build burial sites and hold a proper funeral ceremony (“tôi v?n mong h? tr? l?i, giúp d? nh?ng gia dình n?n nhân s?ng sót, ít nh?t d? h? có th? làm m?, an táng t? t? cho ngu?i dã khu?t”).
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until now, (I) have not seen the (SEAL) team return (d?n gi? chua th?y nhóm bi?t kích nam dó quay l?i).
- (We) only hope that those involved in the killing incident will return to share with the families of the victims. (Ch? mong nh?ng ngu?i gây ra v? th?m sát dó tr? l?i, chia s? gia dình các n?n nhân").
(3) I do understand the points you have made. I am an outsider and have no preference whatsoever.
Thaveeporn Vasavakul, Ph.D
GoSFI - Governance Support Facility Initiatives
www.gosfi.org
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