The Hoi An of the North
From: David Del Testa
Date: Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 7:40 AM
Dear colleagues,
I am sorry to bother you with a factual question, but could someone recall for me the name and location of the now-isolated village that served as the traditional port for northern Vietnam before Haiphong and like Hoi An, whose harbor silted up in the 18th century and was abandoned as an outlet to the sea? If anyone has visited there, is it worth a visit for historical reasons?
Thanks in advance, David Del Testa
David Del Testa, Ph.D.
Department of History
Bucknell University
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From: Mike High
Date: Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:05 AM
David,
You may be referring to Pho Hien, river port to the southeast of Hanoi. It had a community of Chinese merchants, and was most active, it seems, during periods when trade was restricted in the Ke Cho district of Hanoi. I’ve been to Pho Hien a couple of times to look at the temples, which may be of interest, though I wouldn’t go out of the way to see them.
During the Tran Dynasty, the port of entry was Van Don, on the coastline above the rocks of Ha Long. There are supposed to be ruins of several temples there, and I hope to get a look at them at the end of this month on my next trip.
:: Mike
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From: Michele Thompson
Date: Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:07 AM
Dear David,
I think you must mean Pho Hien. I haven't been there myself but there is an entire book on it with essays from a conference that was held about Pho Hien. I don't remember all of the essays but major scholars of Southeast Asia such as Anthony Reid are featured, here is the citation.
Association of Vietnamese Historians, People's Administrative Committee of Hai Hung Province. Pho Hien, the Centre of International Commerce in the XVII-XVIII th Centuries. Ha Noi: The Gioi, 1994.
cheers
Michele
Michele Thompson
Professor, Dept. of History
Southern Connecticut State University
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From: David Brown <nworbd@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:08 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear David: One such place was Vân Đồn, on an island off the coast just northeast of Ha Long Bay. The island is Quan Lan, a still unspoilt 30 km sandspit, with a number of dinh and temples harking back to Van Don's heyday in, if memory serves, the 15th Century -- early Lê dynasty. You must be thinking of another location, however, because Van Don's harbor did not silt up. One source I have refers to a 15th century trading port in Ha Tinh called Hội Thống. Then, contemporary with Hội An, there was in the 17th century a port called Phố Hiến, province unknown to me. Best, David Brown
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From: Guy, John
Date: Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:11 AM
Are you referring to Pho Hien ? The VOC opened a factory there in 1637, and Anthony Farrington has published the EEIC records (British Library).
A special number of 'Vietnamese Studies' is devoted to Pho Hien.
I talk about this and other trade centres in:
‘Exotique et etonment: le commerce et l’echange dans l’histoire du Vietnam’, in M. Lambrecht and C. Schicklgruber (eds.), Vietnam. Art et cultures de la prehistoire a nos jours, Brussels, Musees royaux d’Art et d’Histoire/Snoeck, 2003: 47-62.
'Champa and Vietnam: Art, History and Exchange’, in H. Tan (ed.), Vietnam. From Myth to Modernity, Singapore, Asian Civilisations Museum, 2008.
also see my:
Vietnamese Ceramics. A Separate Tradition, Chicago, Art Media/Paragon, 1997, co-editor with John Stevenson.
John Guy
Metropolitan Musdeum of Art, New york
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From: Guy, John
Date: Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:18 AM
Hello Editor VSG,
Not clear why my communications to VSG do not seem to circulate? Can you clarify please, and send my contribution below to members,
thanks,
John Guy
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From: John Kleinen
Date: Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 11:12 AM
David,
Pho Hien is not isolated. It borders the Red River and served in 17th century as a kind of a custom-office for western goods. There was a place where e.g. VOC ships anchored, Do Mea or Domea, which Hoang Anh Tuan described as part of the Tonkin trade or merchant system. Unlike Hoi An, it never developed into a trade post. Dampier and Samuel Baron described the place nearer to the sea than nowadays (see e.g. Silk for Silver: Dutch -Vietnamese Relations, 1637-1700, and the contributions of Vietnamese historians to my Lion and Dragon, Four centuries of Dutch-Vietnamese relations). We tried in 2008 and 2009 to locate the place, hoping for VOC remnants. In vain.
John
John Kleinen Ph.D
Associate Professor
University of Amsterdam
Department of Anthropology and Sociology
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From: John Kleinen
Date: Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 11:13 AM
David,
Pho Hien is not isolated. It borders the Red River and served in 17th century as a kind of a custom-office for western goods. It is worth a visit. There was a place where e.g. VOC ships anchored, Do Mea or Domea, which Hoang Anh Tuan described as part of the Tonkin trade or merchant system. Unlike Hoi An, it never developed into a trade post. Dampier and Samuel Baron described the place nearer to the sea than nowadays (see e.g. Silk for Silver: Dutch -Vietnamese Relations, 1637-1700, and the contributions of Vietnamese historians to my Lion and Dragon, Four centuries of Dutch-Vietnamese relations). We tried in 2008 and 2009 to locate the place, hoping for VOC remnants. In vain.
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From: Hai Le
Date: Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 1:20 AM
http://csds.anu.edu.au/volume_1_2007/Martinez.pdf
http://www.bbc.co.uk/
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From: Hai Le
Date: Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 1:24 AM
Some more
https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstream/1887/5425/5/01_01.pdf
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From: Bill Hayton
Date: Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 2:17 PM
This is nowhere near my area of expertise but in doing some research
into the history of sea level rise I discovered that there are tidal
records of a port in northern VN taken in 1678 by a navigator called
Francis Davenport working for the (British) East India Company. They
describe the Cua Cam River at a place referred to as 'Batsha'.
There's more here if anyone's interested:
FRANCIS DAVENPORT'S TONKIN TIDAL REPORT
By Paul Hughes and Alan D. Wall
The Mariner's Mirror Vol. 92 No.1 (February 2006)
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From: Tai, Hue-Tam Ho
Date: Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 3:02 PM
It is very likely that Westerners coming to Dai Viet in the 17th century would have come to Pho Hien.
But it is worth noting that Van Don was a port during the late 13th century. It was the site of confrontation between the Mongol fleet led by Toghan and the Vietnamese forces led by Tran Khanh Du in 1288.
Kenneth T. Young Professor
of Sino-Vietnamese Histor