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From: <sdenney@library.berkeley.edu>
Date: Sat, Apr 9, 2011 at 12:21 AM
To: vsg@u.washington.edu
The U.S. State Department released today its annual report on worldwide
human rights practices:
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2010/
The section on Vietnam can be found here:
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2010/eap/154408.htm
Steve Denney
library assistant
UC Berkeley
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From: Melanie Beresford
Date: Sat, Apr 9, 2011 at 2:13 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
"The new regulation restricted the common practice of individuals, particularly land-rights petitioners, from sending joint complaints to numerous federal agencies."
Apparently they think VN has a federal government.
Melanie
--
Melanie Beresford
Associate Dean Research
Associate Professor in Economics
Faculty of Business & Economics
Macquarie University, NSW 2109
Australia
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From: JKirkpatrick
Date: Sat, Apr 9, 2011 at 10:44 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
"The government limited workers' rights to form and join
independent unions."
Of course, the same unions repression is going on right here in
the USA.
Joanna Kirkpatrick
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From: Jean Michaud
Date: Sat, Apr 9, 2011 at 11:00 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
And isn't David Cameron doing exactly that in the UK as we speak?...
Jean Michaud
Université Laval
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From: <sdenney@library.berkeley.edu>
Date: Sat, Apr 9, 2011 at 5:32 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
It is not the same. In Vietnam some independent union activists are
imprisoned for their work and have been adopted by Amnesty International
as "Prisoners of Conscience".
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From: Melanie Beresford
Date: Sat, Apr 9, 2011 at 6:37 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
One presumes that Amnesty will also adopt people who try to oppose the Wisconsin law in any practical way? That law is certainly in violation of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.
Melanie
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From: Walter james Mc intosh
Date: Sat, Apr 9, 2011 at 6:47 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
I agree that it is not anything like what is going on the UK. Many enities besides Amensty International are using the term prisoners of Conscience. When Vietnam's Foreign Ministry spokesperson claims there are no prisoners of conscience in Vietnam ,such statements seems to bring even more angry editorials by media oitlets around the world .
Mac McIntosh
The Lighhouse Bluff, NZ
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From: Walter james Mc intosh
Date: Sat, Apr 9, 2011 at 6:56 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
If one goes to the www.amnestyusa.org web site you will see Amnesty USA's latest press releases on the situation in Wisconson and several other states.
Mac McIntosh
Dues paying member of Amnesty International
The Lighthouse- Bluff, NZ
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From: Chung Nguyen
Date: Sat, Apr 9, 2011 at 7:02 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
It's a strange sort of comparison isn't it? Is it proper to compare the state of development between a country with per capita income of barely a thousand with one with over thirty thousand or so? No doubt, VN still has a way to go. To give a more interesting comparison, one could ask how do the union activists currently fare in Honduras, Columbia, Egypt, Iraq, all with strong, if not overwhelming, support from the U.S.?
CN/UMass
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From: Walter james Mc intosh
Date: Sat, Apr 9, 2011 at 7:56 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
I noticed that the Director General of the ILO Juan Somavia just made a very complemtary speech in reponse to the Egyptian Government's pledge to allow all labour union organizations in Egypt to function freely . The critical view of various nation's human rights abuses have IMO very little to do with their per capita income .
Mac McIntosh
(Former U.S. Government (minor) Official)Retired with 27 years of loyal and meritorious service.
The Lighthouse- Bluff, NZ
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From: <sdenney@library.berkeley.edu>
Date: Sat, Apr 9, 2011 at 8:36 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Yes, certainly AI would adopt them as prisoners of conscience if they were
arrested for opposing that law.
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From: <sdenney@library.berkeley.edu>
Date: Sat, Apr 9, 2011 at 8:40 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
I don't think it is a question of comparing economic development in this
case but rather certain basic rights, such as the right to organize
independent unions, or for another example, to set up an independent
religious organization, such as the Unified Buddhist Church of Vietnam.
Steve Denney
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From: Chung Nguyen
Date: Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 2:47 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Let's look a little deeper beneath the surface, shall we? All the countries I cite could be called the US' client states, with enormous US support either publicly or behind the scene. The struggle of the unions in all these countries essentially contradict U.S. global security interests.
To be brief, let's take one case, the coup d'état in Honduras that removed the legal and constitutional government of President Zelaya and replaced it with a right wing, suppressive and dictatorial regime of Micheletti. All members of the OAS, except the U.S., support the return of Zelaya.
Here's the status of union activities in Honduras:
"The new International Trade Union Confederation (ITUC) report on core labour standards in Honduras, published to coincide with the World Trade Organisation's (WTO) review of its trade policies, reveals grave violations of labour rights. Indeed, following last year's coup d'état, virtually all union activity was halted."
http://www.lab.org.uk/index.php/news/65/650-labour-rights-under-attack-in-honduras <http://www.lab.org.uk/index.php/news/65/650-labour-rights-under-attack-in-honduras>
"On 28 June, a coup d'état broke with the legal and social stability in Honduras. The post-coup violence claimed the lives of at least 12 trade unionists. The main targets of the repression were the members of the National Resistance Front against the Coup, which groups trade union centres and numerous civil society organisations, including women's and youth groups. "
UN's 2010 Annual Survey of violations of trade union rights - Honduras
http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/topic,4565c22547,,4c4fec7633,0.html <http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/topic,4565c22547,,4c4fec7633,0.html>
We can't always rely on politicians' public words to determine what the facts are. I am tempted to quote I.F. Stone on this, but let's move on. In this case Wikileaks performs an excellent fourth estate responsibility which the traditional MSM has utterly failed:
Wikileaks Honduras: State Dept. Busted on Support of Coup
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/11/29-9 <http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/11/29-9>
CN/Umass
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From: phuxuan700@gmail.com
Date: Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 6:46 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear Chung Nguyen et al,
Could you elaborate a little bit more on "VN still has a way to go" ? What is the main reason for why "VN still has a way to go" ?
Did you mean to say Vietnamese people should not have the same rights as people in other countries since VN has low capita income ?
As I also recall, 4 years ago when many countries - not only the US - reacted to the mockery of justice in father Nguyen Van Ly's trial, you brought up US' HR policy vis-a-vis Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, the Palestinians, China, etc.
Is Vsg a forum to discuss rights/wrongs of US policies in the world ?
Thanks,
Calvin Thai
Independent researcher
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From: Carl Robinson
Date: Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 4:47 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Inspired by your discussion here last week on the perfunctory trial in Hanoi of the Vietnamese dissident Cu Huy Ha Vu which was FW'd by a young Fullbrighter in Saigon, I requested and was provided membership in the illustrious-sounding Vietnam Studies Group. As a long-time resident (1964-75) of the former South Vietnam, first with USOM/USAID and after Tet '68 as a correspondent with The Associated Press (AP) who though retired spends much time travelling back to Vietnam, I am looking forward to hearing -- and sharing -- insights on the situation in that country today. Instead, it seems that I have joined up at a rather raucous moment in VSG's tenure judging from other e-mails flying about elsewhere on this list. (As a non-academic, it's quite a fascinating insight too. Why don't you guys just get along, eh?)
But on the more immediate topic of the just-released annual US State Department's report on Human Rights, I am disappointed to see so little "real" discussion on this so far. Instead, we've had the old Chomskyesque Equivalency remarks about trade union rights in the US, UK and Honduras and talk of American "client states." (Does China have "client states" now? Or even Vietnam in Laos and Cambodia?) OK, fine enough that things aren't picture perfect in other countries, but surely the focus should be on Vietnam itself and what's happening there. The human rights abuses are certainly long enough to carry on a good chat or two. For one thing, this is the first time that I've seen what amounts to a comprehensive list of cases and an attempt at putting a figure on the number of political prisoners in Vietnam. As usual, Hanoi's given the report a blast. But you can bet they're reading it carefully too.
Best regards,
Carl Robinson
USOM/USAID, South Vietnam 1964-68; Associated Press, Saigon, 1968-75.
Convenor of the Google Group "Vietnam Old Hacks," a grouping of former
Vietnam War correspondents and others.
http://groups.google.com/group/vietnam-old-hacks?hl=en_US.
Brisbane, Australia.
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From: Ben Quick
Date: Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 5:38 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Isn't Viet Nam fairly far along in the process of becoming a 21st
Century American "client state?" Military relations between Ha Hoi
and Washington would certainly suggest so.
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From: Ben Quick
Date: Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 6:44 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Lip service to human rights issues in a State Department report is one
thing we can always count on. We can also always count on strategic
and corporate interests determining actual policy. The
multinational's best friend is a repressive government. Keeps the
workers in check.
U.S. and Vietnam Build Ties With an Eye on China
By SETH MYDANS
Published: October 12, 2010
HANOI, Vietnam — A visit to Vietnam this week by Robert M. Gates, the
United States defense secretary, is just the latest step in a
bilateral relationship that is at its warmest since diplomatic ties
were established 15 years ago................
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/13/world/asia/13vietnam.html?_r=1&scp=24&sq=&st=nyt
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From: <sdenney@library.berkeley.edu>
Date: Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 6:54 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
I do not agree that Vietnam is a client state of the U.S., nor do I think
the annual State Department report pays "lip service" to human rights. The
report tries to present in an objective way a fairly comprehensive
analysis of each country's human rights performance, and is of use to
those in academica, journalism or elsewhere with a serious interest in the
political development of a particular country. I know the report is
particularly valuable for those who might be called to testify as expert
witnesses in political asylum cases.
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From: Walter james Mc intosh
Date: Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 7:10 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
I note that an official U.S. Commission is protesting human rights abuses in Vietnam and that VOA is publishing their protests. Hardly sounds like mentor/client State relationship actions.
Mac McIntosh
The Lighthouse , Bluff, NZ
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From: Ben Quick
Date: Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 7:45 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
I hate to sound cynical, but I can't remember the last time a Vietnamese citizen was granted political asylum status by the U.S. Can you? As far as I can tell, the Late-Eighties and the end of the Cold War marked the end of political asylum in the States and the beginning of--often brutal--repatriation. Andrew Lam, posing as an interpreter, wrote a fine essay about one of the refugee camps where, almost overnight it seemed, accepting refugees from Southeast Asia lost its political symbolism. As a result, many who would surely return to Viet Nam as American conspirators and suffer as such, were nonetheless labeled "economic refugees" and repatriated. Those who had risked much and quite often paid an enormous price under the promise of American protection had outlasted their usefulness as propaganda tools. Human rights be damned. Like I said, I don't mean to sound overly cynical, but that's sure how it looks from this chair.
At the same time the American State Department is condemning human rights abuses in Viet Nam, the American military is training Vietnamese soldiers and considering an even closer relationship with the Vietnamese military--i.e. arms sales, etc.--ostensibly to subvert Chinese influence in the region. And American-based multinationals--i.e. Nike--gain a firmer foothold in Vietnamese industrial parks every day. As you report yourself, Dylan just played HCMC. I'm not sure exactly what to call this, but it certainly doesn't seem to reflect the conscience of a nation particularly concerned with the human rights of the Vietnamese people.
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From: <sdenney@library.berkeley.edu>
Date: Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 9:04 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Yes, I have written affadavits for two individuals from Vietnam who were
granted political asylum, one was about 15 years ago and the other about
two years ago. I know at least one other person in this forum who has
testified as an expert witness in political asylum cases from Vietnam. The
State Dept. report is very useful in INS cases because it is a case of
using the written statements of one agency of the federal government to
convince the INS court it should rule in the defendant's favor.
I agree with much of what you say regarding the treatment of asylum
seekers from Vietnam in the late 80s, but this was militated more by Hong
Kong and Southeast Asian governments, along with the UNHCR, than the
United States. A more recent problem is ethnic minority asylum seekers
being forcibly repatriated from Cambodia, such as the Khmer Krom, Chau
Hen, who was sentenced to two years imprisonment this month for protesting
land confiscation, after having been returned from Cambodia:
http://khmerization.blogspot.com/2011/04/khmer-krom-imprisoned-by-vietnam-after.html
As for our military relations with Vietnam, I think these are too
superficial to qualify as Vietnam being a client of the U.S.
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From: David Brown
Date: Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 9:08 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
@Ben -- yes, you do indeed sound cynical. Right now, Vietnam is sufficiently eager to build a relationship with the US that it makes only pro-forma protests in response to Washington's dictum that the US will monitor, report and comment on Hanoi's abuses of 'universal human rights.' In private, official US interlocutors with the Vietnamese regularly stress that certain steps toward a closer relationship, including the most favored nation trade status that Hanoi covets, are impossible until Vietnam's treatment of its dissidents and non-conformists improves substantially. Both Secretary Hillary Clinton and Undersecretary for Economic Affairs Bob Hormats have in the past year made pointed public statements of American concern about 'the arrest and conviction of people for peaceful dissent, the attacks on religious groups, the curbs on Internet freedom.' The 2010 Human Rights report on Vietnam, the work of US Embassy staff in Hanoi, merits your careful reading and, I would suggest, general applause.
David Brown
US Department of State, retired
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From: Sidel, Mark
Date: Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 9:32 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
The State Department annual report on human rights (Vietnam country report) is also very useful in UK asylum, refugee and trafficking cases, along with UK government documents.
Mark Sidel
University of Iowa
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From: Ben Quick
Date: Sun, Apr 10, 2011 at 11:07 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Steve,
I'm happy to hear you've had some success in helping dissidents with
asylum. I'm sure you must be frustrated by the process and feel
incredibly rewarded when you help gain freedom for political refugees.
And I know the treatment of ethnic minorities in Southeast Asia is
horrible--pretty much across the region, irrespective of country. At
any rate I commend you for your work.
And David,
I commend you on your work for the State Department. I know the State
Department in general and USAID in particular to be filled with good
and decent Americans trying to affect positive change in difficult
circumstances. I've have read and do applaud the 2010 Human Rights
report on Viet Nam, as I generally applaud the service of all State
Department personnel.
What I do not applaud, and what I see as so much of the same old same
old are public statements contradicted by actual policy--either
explicit or implicit--and I'm sure those in the State Department and
elsewhere working diligently with the best intentions have to be
disappointed by this, as well. Were it not for the historical--and in
some cases current--cases of human rights abuses by Israel, Egypt,
Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, half-a-dozen Central American countries,
Columbia, and many other American allies being tolerated--though often
publicly condemned--by the U.S. for strategic reasons, I'd have much
more faith in the statements of Secretary Clinton and Bob Hormats.
Again, while I don't doubt their sincerity, the record is not good
when it comes to public condemnations. It's as though the
condemnations are an agreed upon prerequisite for doing real business
behind the scenes, and once the words are taped and replayed on the
airwaves for the record, they're dismissed. See recent statements on
Israeli settlements and--untimely to say the least--statements of
support for Hosni Mubarak as examples. But a few of many,
unfortunately.
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From: Michael Karadjis
Date: Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 6:31 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
May be of interest to this discussion
Full Text of Human Rights Record of the United States in 2010
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/china/2010-03/12/c_13208219.htm
Michael Karadjis
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From: Ben Quick
Date: Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 8:25 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Thanks Michael. Wow. That was a quick and thorough response from
Beijing. Some points are irrefutable and well taken. On the other
hand, if anyone thinks Glenn Greenwald, Amy Goodman, Noam Chomsky, the
late Howard Zinn, or even, for that matter, politicians such as Dennis
Kucinich and Bernie Sanders could live in China and openly critique
its social, environmental, and military policy in the same manner they
are able to live in the States and openly critique American social,
environmental, and military policy from any place other than a jail
cell, well.................
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From: Carl Robinson
Date: Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 4:43 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
References have been made earlier in this "string" to Vietnam as a "client state" and the US actually providing military equipment and training to the Vietnamese armed forces. But also, as per David Brown's, that the Americans do indeed make their reservations and feelings known to Vietnamese authorities. I see all this as part of a quite realistic and well-balanced relationship between the two countries. There's nothing wrong with helping them modernise their military forces and, in fact, both the US and Australia have quite significant education programs for Vietnamese military officers. (Australia has an "alumni" of over 1000 of these guys.)
I wouldn't be surprised if many of these military officers -- plus those many civilians who've received foreign credentials in economics, finance and banking -- are side-lined by jealous and conservative hard-liners in-country, but at least they are on the ground and contributing, even if it's in private sphere. One young Vietnamese I met recently was sent by Foreign Affairs to a university in the UK and when he returned, there simply was no position for him. Plus, when you're starting salary is only $150 a month -- soon to rise by 14% -- who could blame him for going off and starting his own pharmaceutical company?
One of the saddest aspects of contemporary Vietnam is simply how under-utilised their talents are.
Best,
Carl
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From: <ARDickey@aol.com>
Date: Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 7:02 PM
To: vsg@u.washington.edu
My ability to comment on VSG is quite limited, as I am a serving USG official in Ho Chi Minh City. However, I would simply like to make a couple of procedural/historical points regarding the granting of asylum for Vietnamese, past and present. The USG stopped entertaining requests for asylum relating to what Americans commonly refer to as the "Vietnam war period" only 2 years ago--June 2009. As for requests for asylum today, the practice is the same throughout the world at all US Embassies and Consulates abroad. That is, anyone with a claim can make one, and any Embassy/Consulate can entertain the request.
Angela Dickey
U.S. Deputy Consul General
Ho Chi Minh City
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