Embedded Files
From: Hue-Tam Tai via Vsg <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2024 12:00 PM
To: mgilbert@hpu.edu; vsg@u.washington.edu; yakiribocou@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Fwd: Start date of "the Vietnam War" --1955?
What is meant by "war"? Boots on.theground? Financial.and military aid?
We are asked to consider the start date ( not the origin, which is a different concept) of the US involvement in Vietnam (aka the Vietnam War). Does it begin with the death of Peter Dewey in 1945? With the US funneling aid to the French in 1950? To the creation.of various MAAG and the introduction of various " advisors"?
If American subsidy of the French is to be considered as the beginning of the Vietnam.War, should American.aid to Ukraine and Israel be described as American wars?
Hue Tam.Ho Tai
Harvard University emerita
On May 20, 2024, at 2:06 PM, Marc Gilbert via Vsg <vsg@u.washington.edu> wrote:
The study of questions about the nomenclature and chronologies of modern wars in Indochina are included subjects in the recently posted Call for Papers on H-Asia and H-Diplo and submitted to VSG as a member, but perhaps without my automatic without my ID. The call (an invitation to contribute to a Forum in a forthcoming issue in World History Connected) is attached.
The Library of Congress lists the American War in Vietnam as running from 1964-1973. Certainly 1945, 1954, and 1959 are better "origin" candidates. Memorializing the end of that war in the US in 2025 as fifty years after the end of that war is problematic. As pointed out by others here, memorializing the civil war that accompanied much of the struggle for independence from 1858 to 1975 is a more useful and certainly less Amerocentric view of nature and sweep and nature of that struggle. And what about the "wars after the war," in Cambodia and in the Viet Bac with China? Or the ongoing troubles over Chinese claims to waters claimed by Vietnam? As another VSGer asked, what defines a war when applied to this region? I think we know, but I would look with pleasure upon any attempt to address it in the forthcoming publication emerging from this CFP, whose final title will be "The Wars in modern Indochina in World History." Nguyễn Ngọc Châu and others are welcome to submit an essay (or competing essays!) to move this discussion to a place where almost 2 million readers of WHC world-wide can better engage it in their scholarship and teaching.
Marc Jason Gilbert,
Professor of History and
NEH-Supported Endowed Chair in World History
(2006-2019, Emeritus, 2020)
Editor, World History Connected (2008-2024)
66 Queen Street, Suite 2605
Honolulu, Hawaii 96813
Phone: 808.638.2563
Email: hallgilbert@earthlink.net / mgilbert@hpu.edu
Website: https://www.hpu.edu/faculty/cla/marc-gilbert.html
Most recent publication: “The View from the Hill: Hawaiʻi’s Congressional Delegation and the Struggle for Peace in Vietnam and Equity at Home, 1964-1975,” in Brian Cuddy and Fredrik Logevall, The Vietnam War and the Pacific World, University of North Carolina Press, 2022.
From: Hawk, Alan J CIV DHA DHA R&E ACTIVITY (USA) via Vsg <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2024 6:24 AM
To: Chau NGUYEN NGOC <yakiribocou@gmail.com>; Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] [Non-DoD Source] Fwd: Start date of "the Vietnam War" --1955?
Just a suggestion, should we consider using the term Indochina wars or Vietnam wars or wars of unification as plural, not singular? These are separate distinct but related events.
Warfare is very complex and even within a single war, the character and nature of combat changes. The Korean conflict was fought very differently in 1950-1951 (maneuver) 1952-1953 (static) and 1953 to present (armistice), punctuated by a brief incursion in 1968.
For example, we think of World War 2 as one war starting in 1939 and ending in 1945. Did it really start in 1937 with the Marco Polo Bridge Incident. How many wars were there? Was it one war or two (Europe and Pacific)? Was it two wars or four: Nazi v/ Soviet; Nazi v/ UK/US and European allies; UK/US and European allies v/ Imperial Japan and China v/ Imperial Japan? What about the Khasan conflict (1938-1939), The Winter Wars and the Italian-Hellenic War, all of which occurred during this period? Each of these had very different characteristics and were fought very differently with distinct war aims.
However, I would be cautious about conflating involvement with warfare as some seem to be suggesting we do.
V/r
Alan Hawk
Collections Manager, Historical Collections
National Museum of Health and Medicine
Defense Health Agency Research & Engineering Dir (J-9)
2460 Linden La. Bldg. 178
Silver Spring, MD 20910
http://www.medicalmuseum.health.mil
NMHM on X (Twitter): http://www.twitter.com/MedicalMuseum
NMHM on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/MedicalMuseum
Phone: (301) 319-3361, DSN 319-3361
Fax: (301) 319-3373, DSN 319-3373
From: Alvin K Bui via Vsg <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2024 1:26 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Cc: Hieu Phung <minhhieu@msn.com>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Start date of "the Vietnam War" --1955?
Dear all,
Shawn, may I ask if you taught them a specific date (or year) for the start of the Vietnam War, and if it was even important to mention in their final papers? I am curious as to why they feel the need to mention the start year in these papers.
There are things I want to say about the RVN's representation on Wikipedia (and across languages), but I will save it for another time. Since Ed as a card-carrying historian has answered Calvin (and later Ngọc Châu's) question on how we think about multiple viewpoints/definers affect any singular consensus (and more broadly, "factual questions"), I'll mention some things about Wikipedia as a lapsed hobbyist editor and educator planning to incorporate Wikipedia article expansion/improvement assignments in some, if not all of my classes. I'll be developing these courses/assignments in the summer and autumn, if anyone is interested in further discussion.
The American Historical Association has a virtual (free and open to the public) event next Thursday, May 23 at 2 p.m. ET on The Wikipedia Assignment: How Students Are Making History by Writing about the Past. The event has four faculty speakers and will be moderated by Dr. Helaine Blumenthal of Wiki Education. The description reads:
How we consume, produce, and share information is rapidly changing, and pedagogical praxes need to evolve in order to meet these new challenges. Join us at this roundtable, where you’ll hear from four historians who have adopted open pedagogical practice into their curricula by incorporating Wikipedia assignments into their courses. We’ll explore the role Wikipedia can play in tackling many of the challenges facing humanities education today, and how you can integrate this pedagogical activity into your own teaching.
For those that can't make it, the recording will be available on the AHA's YouTube channel after the event. One of the speakers is Dr. Shira Klein, who co-authored a 2023 article in the Journal of Holocaust Research entitled "Wikipedia’s Intentional Distortion of the History of the Holocaust" which already has 54k+ views. As the authors write/show: "[Wikipedia] exposure surpasses that of any monograph or journal article, suggesting that Wikipedia shapes public knowledge about the Holocaust far more than scholarship does."
As a comparison, "Vietnam War" has had more monthly views than "The Holocaust" in all but four months since July 2015, yet the Vietnam War is a "C-class" article, while The Holocaust has achieved "Good article" status. Here are the descriptions of the various class levels. "Vietnam War" went up for was nominated for Good article status in 2006 and 2017 but did not get listed. It is an article of top importance to the Vietnam and Southeast Asia WikiProjects and high-importance to the History Wikiproject. The general reading public and Wikipedians are paying attention!
Some notes on the Vietnam War (English language Wikipedia) article:
I see a number of VSG names on the Additional Sources ("used to build the article") section: Asselin 2024; Dror 2018; Nguyen Duy Lap 2020; Tran Nu-Anh 2022. However, these publications are not referenced as in-line citations.
Four pieces from the NYT's Vietnam '67 series (by Nguyen Hai T., Elizabeth Becker, Andrew Wiest and David Biggs) are cited in-line, out of 100+ pieces. Of course, these are categorized by the NYT as "Opinion" (or "theo quan điểm của tác giả" as we learned from Ed in his publishing in Vietnam journey!)
The VN War article was tagged in June 2023 as "may be too long to read and navigate comfortably" at 19,000 words.
It is also a "semi-protected" page that requires editors to be registered with accounts that are at least 4 days old and have at least 10 edits on English Wikipedia. There's a lot of shorter "stub" and "start-class" articles (about the War or otherwise) that warrant attention.
Student editors (with the guidance of Vietnam studies educators and an assigned Wiki Education staff member) over the course of a term can make specific/targeted improvements to this and other articles. Editing the text of Wikipedia articles requires about 30-90 minutes of learning entry-level HTML-like coding, such as tags to incorporate formatting and citations. Wiki Ed has a structured set of modules guiding students through this.
VSG's very own Hieu Phung taught a class on Environmental Crises in Southeast Asia which had a Wikipedia Assignment. You can click "Timeline" to see how students progress through modules and "Students" to see to which articles Professor Phung's students contributed. It also looks like students were assigned to review one classmates' work.
In a 4-page guide for students assigned to add content about history to Wikipedia, Wiki Ed states that editors should "prioritize secondary sources over primary sources", and that "Wikipedia doesn't permit original research". I believe these are ideal parameters for students who are already reading secondary sources in their university classes to contribute to knowledge beyond assignments that instructors/graders read. If/when students are asked to do so as the output/deliverable for a course, it may change the way they approach the reading.
There are also guides for student editors making contributions in other "topic areas"/disciplines/fields of study (see Week 10 of Dr. Phung's course timeline).
Coincidentally, there was discussion this March on the VN War article's "Talk page" about the end date of the Vietnam War (reference U.S. military deaths in the Mayaguez incident), and it doesn't seem to be the first time for that discussion.
~Alvin Khiêm Bùi, UW-Seattle
From: Mike High via Vsg <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2024 12:51 PM
To: Edward G. Miller <Edward.G.Miller@dartmouth.edu>
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Start date of "the Vietnam War" --1955?
Dear VSGers,
I absolutely agree (in principle) with Ed’s opinion that the topicof the start date for the Vietnam War (meaning the “Second Indochina War” or the “American War”) in “not a factual question”—which has the ring of Wittgensteinian simplicity. Vietnam is a special challenge for those who like demarcations, because we have no declaration of war and no clear point where the Rubicon was crossed. What is the point of no return when entering a quagmire?
Nevertheless, I’d like to throw in a few dates just as context. My timeline would start with the OSS Deer Team in the north in the summer of 1945, and the death of Col. Peter Dewey in Saigon in September—at the beginning of the First Indochina War. The critical decision to send military aid to the French in January 1950 is a key date, though it belongs to the First Indochina War. (The French insisted that the U.S. deliver military aid directly to their commanders, rather than to the recently-established State of Vietnam—remarkably, the U.S. wasn’t even able to persuade the French to allow Bao Dai to occupy the Governor-General’s Palace.)
Another critical step was Lansdale’s arrival in Saigon in 1954, and his subsequent efforts to assist Diem. Around this time, as I understand it, the CIA agent Lucien Conein made some modest efforts at sabotage and also arranged for the training and insertion of Vietnamese agents (some of them recruited from the Dai Viet and VNQDD parties) into the north.
Covert operations aside, the date that U.S. soldiers first flew on combat missions (early 1962, we think) is certainly a key point on the timeline.
From my perspective, I start the “American War” with the landing of the Marines on the beaches at Da Nang in March 1965. It not only marked the first introduction of full-fledged combat units, but it was also a Rubicon ibecause—from that point on—any withdrawal of troops would have been politically catastrophic for LBJ.
(BTW, I still can’t get over the coverage in the U.S. newspapers—which said nothing about coordination, or lack thereof, with the RVN.)
:: Mike High
Great Falls, Virginia
USA
Researcher | Author
From: Paul Schmehl via Vsg <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2024 12:38 PM
To: Chau NGUYEN NGOC <yakiribocou@gmail.com>
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Start date of "the Vietnam War" --1955?
I would define it as you have:
1945-1975
Chiến tranh giữa cộng sản và quốc gia
But many would define it as you were suggested to change it to:
1945-1975
Chiến tranh thống nhất đất nước
As you point out, the definition is entirely dependent upon the viewpoint of the person defining it. It is therefore impossible to obtain a consensus.
I wonder, though, if you could characterize the actions of Vietnamese nationalists in opposition to the French, prior to World War II, as a war?
For example, we could define the American Revolutionary War as beginning with the first acts of defiance by the colonists (e.g. opposition to the Sugar Act (1763), the Stamp Act (1764), the Declaratory Act (1765), the Boston Tea Party, etc), rather than the actual initiation of armed hostilities with the skirmishes in Lexington and Concord.
So, first we must begin by defining war.
Paul Schmehl
paul.schmehl@gmail.com
Independent Researcher
From: Chau NGUYEN NGOC via Vsg <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2024 11:46 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: [Vsg] Fwd: Start date of "the Vietnam War" --1955?
Dear all,
How do you define " Viet Nam War"?
Don't you think that the starting date depends on the definition of this war and on who defines it?
The Viet Nam war meaning for me the war between communists and those who didn't want to see their country becoming communist, I wrote:
1945-1975
Chiến tranh giữa cộng sản và quốc gia
It started in 1945 with the first killings by the communists of the ones they considered dangerous: nationalists, Trotskysts, Hoa Hao, Cao Dai, ...
(Just for your information, I was suggested to change it into )
1945-1975
Chiến tranh thống nhất đất nước
Of course, if it means the war of the Americans in Vietnam, the start date would be different, depending on from whom the view comes: the Americans, the French, the communists, the nationalists...
It is the same for the first Viet Nam War : For the Vietnamese, this Independence War started with the first battles against the French in 1858. For the French, Đề Thám was a "pirate", a "bandit" who "disrupted French colonial peace", there was no war until their Indochina War.
Nguyễn Ngọc Châu
Mes articles (plus de 30.500 vues)
https://independent.academia.edu/ChauNGUYENNGOC2
From: Edward G. Miller via Vsg <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2024 8:12 AM
To: thaveeporn@kvsnetworksystem.com; mchale@gwu.edu; Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Start date of "the Vietnam War" --1955?
Dear Shawn and everyone,
The Pentagon’s official rationale for treating 1 November 1955 as the start of the Vietnam War has to do with the creation of the Military Advisory Assistance Group-Vietnam (MAAG-V) on that date. With the creation of MAAG-V, the US military could begin providing military aid directly to the South Vietnamese state and army.
Of course, November 1955 did not mark the beginning of US military aid efforts in Vietnam or the rest of Indochina—not even close. MAAG-V (along with other MAAGs created in Cambodia and Laos in 1955) was actually just a reorganized version of the MAAG-Indochina, which was created back in 1950. That earlier MAAG supplied huge amounts of military aid to the State of Vietnam and the other Associated States of Indochina during the First Indochina War, but did so indirectly, via French military channels.
In 2012, Barak Obama issued a presidential proclamation that simply ignored the Pentagon’s 1955 official start date. Obama declared that US helicopter pilots’ participation in a combat mission on January 12, 1962 marked the actual beginning of US involvement in the war.
This is all by way of answering Calvin’s question: no, there is no consensus about how to date the start of the Vietnam War. Various US government agencies have endorsed a conflicting variety of dates, based on episodes involving US government policy and/or US military personnel. Historians also disagree over how to date the start of the war. Some of have endorsed the American-centered chronologies put forward by US state agencies, while others have made arguments based on more knowledge of events and politics in Vietnam and the rest of Indochina.
For me, this all points to the conclusion that the issue of the start date of the Vietnam War is not really a factual question. The date that one chooses depends on how one is interpreting the war—especially how one interprets its origins and causes.
The questions and debates over how to interpret the war’s origins are the main themes of Volume I of The Cambridge History of Vietnam War, which will be published later this year. Lien-Hang Nguyen is the general editor of this collection, and I edited Volume 1, which covers the period down to 1963. (Andrew Preston edited Volume 2 on the escalation of the war during 1963-1968 and Pierre Asselin edited Volume 3 on the post-1968 history of the war and its aftermaths.) I’ve attached a copy of the table of contents for Volume 1—which, I am proud to point out, includes many VSG members.
Cheers,
Ed
Edward Miller (he, his, him)
Associate Professor of History and Asian Studies
Chair of the Department of Asian Societies, Cultures, and Languages
Director of the Dartmouth Digital History Initiative
Dartmouth College
6107 Carson Hall, Hanover, NH 03755
Edward.Miller@Dartmouth.edu
http://history.dartmouth.edu/people/edward-miller
From: Hawk, Alan J CIV DHA DHA R&E ACTIVITY (USA) via Vsg <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2024 6:16 AM
To: John Hutnyk <johnhutnyk@tdtu.edu.vn>; Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] [Non-DoD Source] Start date of "the Vietnam War" --1955?
To answer your question – since it is unlikely to be known precisely when the first American killed an enemy Vietnamese soldier, the U.S. Army Center for Military History publications _Advice and Support_ suggest that the most likely time period would begin in 1961, probably 1964-1965.
“To provide the advisory group with a tactical intelligence capability to compensate for what the Americans considered unreliable French intelligence, Navarre allowed the group to bring in a combat intelligence detachment, a step for which General Trapnell had been seeking approval for several months Detachment P, 8533d Army Attache Unit (Special Foreign Assignment), arrived in Hanoi in December 1953. The unit consisted of 4 officers and 9 enlisted men, employed 7 Vietnamese, and operated directly under the Assistant Chief of Staff for Intelligence in Washington. Its mission was to obtain such data on Viet Minh forces as unit histories, prisoner of war interrogation reports, and logistical capabilities estimates, as well as information on any Chinese units or individua ls operating with the Viet Minh · ' source Advice and Support: The Early Years, 1941-1960 (army.mil) p180
“On 25 May 1959, the Commander in Chief, Pacific, Admiral Harry D. Felt, informed General Williams that American advisers assigned to Vietnamese Army regiments and separate battalions could go along on operational missions " provided they do not become involved in actual combat. ,, 18” Source Advice and Support: The Early Years, 1941-1960 (army.mil) p332
“Gradually, Americans became involved in the fighting. In 1960 American advisers, hitherto involved primarily with training and higher-level staff work, started assisting ground combat units in the field. U.S. Army advisers began to operate regularly at the regimental level in 1960, at the battalion level in 1961, and with the paramilitary forces in 1964. At the same time, other advisory teams began to assist provinces and their subordinate districts. By 1965 a five-man U.S. advisory team accompanied each South Vietnamese infantry battalion, allowing some advisers to work at the rifle company level and below. These tactical advisers coordinated the growing amount of direct American combat support available to the South Vietnamese on the battlefield, and, as this support steadily increased, their importance as combat coordinators grew accordingly.” Source Advice and Support: The Final Years (army.mil) p14.
V/r
Alan Hawk
Collections Manager, Historical Collections
National Museum of Health and Medicine
Defense Health Agency Research & Engineering Dir (J-9)
2460 Linden La. Bldg. 178
Silver Spring, MD 20910
http://www.medicalmuseum.health.mil
NMHM on X (Twitter): http://www.twitter.com/MedicalMuseum
NMHM on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/MedicalMuseum
Phone: (301) 319-3361, DSN 319-3361
Fax: (301) 319-3373, DSN 319-3373
From: Thaveeporn@kvsnetworksystem.com via Vsg <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2024 5:00 AM
To: mchale@gwu.edu; Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Start date of "the Vietnam War" --1955?
Dear Shawn,
I remember that George Kahin, in his book INTERVENTION, argues that the US was involved in Vietnam as early as 1950 following the victory of Chinese communism in 1949. The US then supported the Bao Dai solution and gave heaps of money through the Marshall Plan to support the French efforts in Vietnam. For the ending date, I simply think that given that the US did not lift its embargo until 1994, perhaps we could just broadly say that the war did not end until then.
I understand that people conceptualizing the notion "Vietnam War" (as opposed to the more general notion of American wars in Vietnam) will have different dates in mind. Interesting that the date has been changed to 1 November 1955. Weird but it is really bottom-up and people-oriented.
I would love to hear from Vietnamese historians in Vietnam when they think the Vietnam war started and ended.
Cheers,
Thaveeporn Vasavakul
GoSFI
From: John Hutnyk via Vsg <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 17, 2024 4:38 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] [Non-DoD Source] Start date of "the Vietnam War" --1955?
Hi
Hate to ask the obvious, but does it not matter more to know when the US killed their first Vietnamese national? - that should be 'the start' of the war I guess. But then facts blur into fiction even before Alden Pyle ever heard of Phong and Thomas Fowler...
Surely all search for origins is fraught, yet there are many and different implications (even for pensions, which is something I had not clocked before).
J
From: Diane Fox via Vsg <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2024 10:34 PM
To: David Marr <phanmarr@gmail.com>
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] [Non-DoD Source] Start date of "the Vietnam War" --1955?
Then there jis this:
--Isn't it so that the deaths on the Vietnam War monument in Washington begin in 1959 (or used to, at least? It has een a long time since I last was there)
and this
--Do others of you remember a documentary that showed an American being killed in/near Saigon in a military encounter in 1945?
I think the ambiguity of the date opens the way to fruitful thinking and discussion
my 2 cents
Diane
Diane Fox, Living with Agent Orange--conversations in postwar Viet Nam
From: Cau Thai via Vsg <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2024 4:06 PM
To: mchale@gwu.edu
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Start date of "the Vietnam War" --1955?
Hi Shawn et al,
Fitzgibbon was killed by another American airman in Saigon on June 8, 1956. ("The US Air Force in Southeast Asia and the Vietnam War: A Narrative Chronology - Volume I: The Early Years through 1959", Kenneth Williams, 2019, p.220.)
There were other American soldiers' deaths between the date above and January 1, 1961, as cited in "Embers of War: The Fall of an Empire and the Making of America's Vietnam", Fredrik Logevall, 2012.
The following paragraph might shed some light on the DOD's decision:
"Earlier this year, the Air Force formally requested that the director, Information Operations and Reports add Fitzgibbon's name to the database. In the past he had not been included because the DoD Instruction established Jan. 1, 1961, as the start date for the database. After an extensive high-level review of the qualifying criteria and the circumstances of loss for pre-1961 casualties, the Department decided to add his name to the database. Eight other pre-1961 casualties have been added in years past. As a result of the review, the establishment of the Military Assistance Advisory Group, Vietnam, on Nov. 1, 1955, is now formally recognized as the earliest qualifying date for addition to the database and the Vietnam Veterans Memorial."
If the start date of the Vietnam War was not on November 1, 1955, is there a consensus among historians in the West on what the start date should have been?
Best,
Calvin Thai
Independent
From: David Marr via Vsg <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2024 4:28 PM
To: Hawk, Alan J CIV DHA DHA R&E ACTIVITY (USA) <alan.j.hawk.civ@health.mil>
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] [Non-DoD Source] Start date of "the Vietnam War" --1955?
Sorry, I arrived in July 1962, not 1963.
David
From: David Marr via Vsg <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2024 3:59 PM
To: Hawk, Alan J CIV DHA DHA R&E ACTIVITY (USA) <alan.j.hawk.civ@health.mil>
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] [Non-DoD Source] Start date of "the Vietnam War" --1955?
When wars/conflicts are said to begin and end often has financial implications. The Australian government eventually decided that the Vietnam War had begun in July 1963. That became a happy date for me. I arrived in Soc Trang as a US Marine interpreter that month. Many years later, as the result of a US-Australian agreement, I received an Australian veterans pension which would not have been forthcoming if I arrived in Soc Trang earlier.
Does anyone know if Australian veterans residing in in the US get a US pension?
David Marr
ANU
From: Hawk, Alan J CIV DHA DHA R&E ACTIVITY (USA) via Vsg <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2024 1:28 PM
To: mchale@gwu.edu; Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] [Non-DoD Source] Start date of "the Vietnam War" --1955?
Dr McHale,
Dates & Names of Conflicts (va.gov)
Vietnam War (1962 - 1973)
The Vietnam War was a conflict in Southeast Asia between South Vietnam and North Vietnam in which North Vietnam wanted to reunite the two countries under its Communist government. The U.S. supported the government of South Vietnam. There was great opposition to the war in the U.S., and the U.S. ultimately withdrew its forces in 1973. In 1975, North Vietnam defeated South Vietnam and took control of the country.
Defense Casualty Analysis System (osd.mil)
Vietnam Conflict is listed as 1964-1973 . Number serving covers the period August 5, 1964 ('Vietnam era' begins) through January 27, 1973 (date of cease-fire). Deaths include the period November 1, 1955 (commencement date for the Military Assistance Advisory Group) through May 15, 1975 (date last American servicemember left Southeast Asia). Casualty records are updated annually, including current deaths that are directly attributed to combat in the Vietnam Conflict. Additional detail now on table shows number of WIA servicemembers not requiring hospital care.
NOTE: According to DoD – Vietnam was a conflict since there was never a formal declaration of War by Congress, although the Korea is listed as a War despite a similar lack of congressional declaration (although in the past I had seen it referred to as a conflict.
There are 17 campaign streamers for Unit flag associated with the Vietnam War (U.S. Army Center for Military History calls it a war.) Listing of the Campaigns of the U.S. Army Displayed on the Army Flag | U.S. Army Center of Military History and same number of listed for the U.S. Air Force AFI 34-1201_Protocol.pdf (jbsa.mil). However, the U.S. Navy Battle Streamers (navy.mil), which lists Vietnam Conflict 1962-1975 (I suspect the navy counts the rescue operation of Vietnamese and American resulting in the fall of South Vietnam) has only one with this description; “26. Vietnam Service (3 Silver Stars, 2 Bronze Stars). To prevent the collapse of the Republic of Vietnam in the face of Communist Viet Cong and North Vietnamese aggression, the United States extended military assistance to South Vietnam beginning in 1950, with Navy participation expanding after the Gulf of Tonkin incident in 1964. The United States Navy’s multi-faceted role in the conflict included shore bombardment, carrier air strikes, tactical gunfire support, amphibious landings, coastal surveillance, extensive riverine (“brown water navy”) operations, logistic support, and training the South Vietnamese navy.”
Correlates of War – The Correlates of War Project (which I find as a fascinating website and project) breaks down the Vietnam War as
Vietnam War Phase 1 of 1960-1965 Intra-State War #748
Vietnam War Phase 2 of 1965-1975 Inter-State War #163
Hopefully, this clarifies (?)
V/r
Alan Hawk
Collections Manager, Historical Collections
National Museum of Health and Medicine
Defense Health Agency Research & Engineering Dir (J-9)
2460 Linden La. Bldg. 178
Silver Spring, MD 20910
http://www.medicalmuseum.health.mil
NMHM on X (Twitter): http://www.twitter.com/MedicalMuseum
NMHM on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/MedicalMuseum
Phone: (301) 319-3361, DSN 319-3361
Fax: (301) 319-3373, DSN 319-3373
From: Shawn McHale via Vsg <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2024 12:11 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: [Vsg] Start date of "the Vietnam War" --1955?
Dear all,
This semester, I've been teaching a class on the Vietnam War, and in their final papers, students have often been writing that the Vietnam War lasted from 1955 to 1975. Going online, I see that Encyclopedia Britannica even says this. A Wikipedia article states that "Due to the early presence of U.S. troops in Vietnam, the start date of the Vietnam War is a matter of debate. In 1998, after a high-level review by the Department of Defense (DoD) and through the efforts of Richard B. Fitzgibbon's family, the start date of the Vietnam War according to the U.S. government was officially changed to 1 November 1955.["
The logic of this date change seems particularly perverse. Richard Fitzgibbon was an Air Force Sergeant in Vietnam in 1955. He was MURDERED, OFF-DUTY, BY ANOTHER AMERICAN AIRMAN. His family lobbied to have him considered a Vietnam War casualty, and the Department of Defense agreed, moving the date back to 1 November 1955.
More to the point, this new date has proliferated on the web as the "start" of the Vietnam War.
I did not realize that the US Department of Defense, and not historians around the world and in Vietnam, decided when the Vietnam War started. It's odd as well given that in materials captured by the US military after 1965, I've seen the period right after the war against France (1945-54) referred to as "9 năm hòa bình" (nine years of peace).
Has the US Department of Defense contacted anyone on this list, not to mention the Vietnamese government, to discuss this dramatic change?
Shawn McHale
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Shawn McHale
Professor of History
George Washington University
Washington, DC 20052 USA
Author of:
The First Vietnam War (Cambridge, 2021)
Print and Power: Confucianism, Communism, and Buddhism in the Making of Modern Vietnam, 1920-45 (Hawaii, 2004, 2008)
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