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From: Sidel, Mark <mark-sidel@uiowa.edu>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: vsg@u.washington.edu
Date: Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 1:43 AM
Dear colleagues,
On a different topic, I'm cross-posting a message on the main China politics and current affairs listserve from a Chinese citizen in Hunan province about the extent of local-level government/bureaucracy in the area where he lives (with thanks to Xiao Qiang of the China Internet Project, who put this on the China list). The poster calculates roughly 105 bureau-level units and 1500-2000 officials at the county level in all the entities listed below. Does this resonate with our knowledge of local-level government/bureaucracy in Vietnam?
Enjoy.
Mark Sidel
________________________________
From: c-pol on behalf of Xiao Qiang
Sent: Thu 3/20/2008 11:36 PM
To: CHINAPOL@weber2.sscnet.ucla.edu
Subject: [C-POL] How Many Agencies in a Small County Government?
How Many Agencies in a Small County Government? <http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/03/how-many-agencies-in-a-small-county-government-you-have-no-idea/>
Wonder why people in China have been getting so excited over government efforts to reorganize and reduce bureaucracy? A recent post <http://www.daqi.com/bbs/20/1887404.html> on the popular Daqi BBS provides some stunning insight. Written by a frequent contributer who calls himself Xingtian Wujian (????), the post lists all the county-level administrative divisions in his hometown in southern Hunan Province <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunan> . The effect is truly stunning (translated by CDT):
Five main groups: the Party Committee, the People's Congress, the Government, the CPPCC, the Discipline Inspection Commission.
Under Party Committee management: the Propaganda Department; the Organization Department (a minister, a deputy minister, two office staff); United Front Work Department (a minister, a deputy minister, two office staff); County Office (a director, one director's assistant, a secretary, two clerks). Workers' Union (five staff); the Superintendent Office (one director, two director's assistants, a secretary, two clerks); Office of the Armed Forces (one minister, deputy minister, four officers); Politics and Law Committee (one director, one deputy minister, a secretary, two clerks); Monitoring Office (minister, two deputy ministers, a secretary, two clerks). The Court (one chief, five board members, eight office directors, ten court police officers); People's Procuratorate (one director, five vice-directors, eight office directors, 10 police);Party School (one dean, two associate deans, a secretary, four clerks); Politics Research Office (one director, two vice directors, one secretary); Work Supervision Bureau (two rapporteurs); Party History Research Center (one director, two vice-directors, one secretary, two clerks). Seniors' Center (one director, two vice directors, one secretary, two clerks); Youth League (one director, two vice directors, two clerks); Party Committee (one director, two deputy bureau chiefs, one secretary, two clerks); Bureau of Radio and Television (one bureau chief, two vice-bureau chiefs, one secretary, two clerks, ten radio and television crew members); National People's Congress (one director, two vice directors, one secretary, three clerks); CPPCC (one director, two vice directors, one secretary, three clerks); Commission for Discipline Inspection Office (one director, two vice directors, one secretary, three clerks). Plus a bunch of other minor departments, including the Women's Federation (one director, two vice directors, one secretary, three clerks).
Government Departments:
Office of Confidential Work Immigration Development Agency, Bureau of Religious Affairs, Administration of Work Safety, Municipal Office of Defense, Moral Correction Office, Office of Public Works, the Politics Research Center, the Housing Provident Fund Management Center, Information Office, Office of Flue-cured Tobacco, Legislative Affairs Office, Foreign Affairs Office, Labor and Social Security Bureau, Shanghai Personnel Bureau, Civil Affairs Bureau, Land and Resources Bureau, Petition Office, Food Bureau, the Home Affairs Center, China Disabled Persons Federation, Urban Construction Investment Management Office, Provincial Office, China Association of Science and Technology, Culture Bureau, Sports Bureau, Health Bureau, Judicial Bureau, Public Security Bureau, the Federation of Industry and Commerce, the Rural Affairs Office, Bureau of Forestry, Water Conservancy Bureau, Bureau of Agricultural Machinery, Commodity Prices Bureaqu, Bureau of Technical Supervision, Bureau of Animal Husbandry, Bureau of Aquatic Products, Bureau of Meteorology, Office of Agricultural Education, Energy Office, Management and Operation Bureau, Development Office, the Business Bureau, the Financal Services Bureau, Trade and Industry Bureau, the Local Tax Bureau, National Tax Bureau, Commercial Management Office, the Supply and Marketing Cooperative, the Audit Office, Foreign Trade Management Office, Materials Management Office, Tobacco Bureau, the Industrial Economy Bureau, Transportation Bureau, the Transportation Bureau, Coal Bureau, Textile Management Office,Drug Administration Office, Post Office Bureau, Electric Power Bureau, Administrative Law Enforcement Bureau, Urban Management, Population and Family Planning Bureau, the Bureau of Statistics, Environmental Protection Bureau, Real Estate Bureau, the Party Civilization Office, the Planning Board Bureau, Technology Bureau, the Department of Education, Development and Reform Bureau, the Pension Insurance Bureau, the Rural Investigation Team, Dossier Bureau, the Government Vehicle Fleet.
In addition, among leaders of the five main groups, besides party leaders, there are 13 standing committee members, six vice-county chiefs, six People's Congress representatives, six deputy directors of the NPC and CPPCC National Committee, six vice-chairman of the People's Political Consultative Conference, eight party researchers, and 12 deputy researchers. There's are also a township party committee and government, a group of village committees and countless "national-level civil servants."
There are about 105 bureau-level units. Each Bureau Office has 8 - 10 people. Total staff number between 1500 and 2000. Each office or bureau as one or two vehicles, and two to three drivers, for the use of high-level leaders. On average, it takes the work of 26 residents to feed one official! How can the lives of average Chinese people not be bitter?
Read also: Who Taxpayers Pay For in XX Cit <http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2007/07/who-taxpayers-pay-for-in-xx-city-web/> y by CDT.
Xiao Qiang <http://chinadigitaltimes.net/author/xiao_qiang> ??
Director, China Internet Project
Adjunct Professor
The Graduate School of Journalism
University of California at Berkeley
Founder and Publisher
China Digital Times
http://Chinadigitaltimes.net <http://chinadigitaltimes.net/>
The revolution --> will --> be --> blogged!
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From: jkirk <jkirk@spro.net>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 9:23 AM
Isn't this a well-known way of creating jobs and patronage, thus maintaining
and extending power and control?
The GW Bush administration has increased the size of our bureaucracy in the
states, as well, despite the anti-big government positon of traditional
Republicans (of whom I surmise there are only two left). As have previous US
governments no matter what the party in power. Presumbly, in VN ordinary
voters have no chance to make changes in such arrangements, but here we
don't either, despite what is claimed about democracy.
Joanna Kirkpatrick
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From: Frank <frank.proschan@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 11:01 AM
Mark and all,
There is a mismatch of scale here. One has to remember that some counties in China would have a larger population than most Vietnamese provinces, not districts, if that is what is understood by "local-level". The province of Sichuan--closest in population to Vietnam at 87 million vs. 86 million--has 21 prefectures and 181 counties, meaning that a Chinese county is closer in size to a Vietnamese province (n= 59+5) than it is to a Vietnamese district (n=663). If one multiplies by 3 (i.e., 1 VN province = 3 Chinese counties), is the number of 4500-6000 province-level officials reasonable for Vietnam? Or if one divides by 3.66 (i.e., 1 Chinese county = 3.66 VN districts), is the number of 400-550 district-level officials reasonable?
Best regards,
Frank Proschan
37 place Jeanne d'Arc
75013 Paris
FRANCE
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