Ukraine as seen from Vietnam
From: Cau Thai <cvthai75@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2022 12:38 PM
To: vsg@uw.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Ukraine as seen from Vietnam? /tweak to be popular responses as well, not just government??
Dear all,
For the first time since the start of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, view in line with popular opinions is on Vietnam's mainstream media:
"Tất cả các lập luận pháp lý của Nga đưa ra đều không thuyết phục, tất cả đều không thể dùng để biện minh cho hành vi tổng tấn công Ukraine, vi phạm Hiến chương Liên Hợp Quốc, vi phạm Luật quốc tế... Ngừng bắn, và rút tất cả lực lượng quân sự của Nga khỏi toàn bộ lãnh thổ Ukraine – ngay lập tức, toàn bộ và vô điều kiện." ("All legal arguments of Russia are not convincing, all cannot be used to justify an all-out attack on Ukraine, violation of the UN Charter, violation of international law... A cease fire, and the withdraw of all Russian military forces from the entire territory of Ukraine – immediately, completely and unconditionally.")
It is interesting to note activities taken by government officials in the last several days, from the Prime Minister down to district-level officials:
"Vietnam PM pays tribute to soldiers who died defending Spratly reefs"
"Đặt lại lư hương tại tượng đài Trần Hưng Đạo" ("Return of the incense burner to the statue of Tran Hung Dao")
https://vnexpress.net/dat-lai-lu-huong-tai-tuong-dai-tran-hung-dao-4439734.html
China used force to take over Vietnam-controlled features in the Spratly Islands, killing 64 Vietnamese soldiers on 3/14/88. The statue of Tran Hung Dao in Saigon's Me Linh Park is where people commemorated the 1979 war against Chinese invasion. The incense burner was suddenly removed from the site in 2019. On social media and mainstream media, people called for its return in the past 3 years. Are these activities coincidental or part of the damage-control effort ?
Anyhow, for clarity, I would like to rephrase the last sentence in the previous post:
WAS: We cannot discuss Vietnam's recent UN vote without some knowledge about what's involved for Vietnam.
IS: It is more challenging to discuss Vietnam's UN vote when Vietnam's history, its love-hate relationship with bullies of the world, and the negative implication of abstention are taken into consideration. It is less complicated to address related questions when people can freely express their views, when polling and surveys on sensitive issues can be conducted in Vietnam.
Regarding the previous postscript, while I do have brain-storm meetings with the team, instances of "head-banging-against-the-desk" should be taken in a metaphorical sense. Of course I would never want to damage company properties. 8=)
Last but not least, thank you for your comments on-list and off-list. This is one great thing about VSG. Members can agree to disagree and continue to exchange views about Vietnam. They can even meet to talk over glasses of wine on which restaurants to try when visiting Hanoi next time.
Cheers,
Calvin Thai
Independent
From: Cau Thai <cvthai75@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2022 4:43 PM
To: Diane Fox <dnfox70@gmail.com>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu; Christoph Giebel <giebel@uw.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Ukraine as seen from Vietnam? /tweak to be popular responses as well, not just government??
Dear Diane et al,
Vietnam's mainstream media is controlled by one editor-in-chief, "Ban Tuyên giáo Trung ương". In rare cases, we see articles or even books published with views completely different from the party lines. Then come 404 errors, book recalls. (I have quite a few of these 404-error-related articles, recalled books in my collection).
Therefore, it is not a surprise to have views like the one below on the mainstream media:
"Diễn biến chiến sự đang hướng đến kịch bản: chính quyền Ukraine phải chấp nhận thất bại, chấm dứt chiến sự và đáp ứng các yêu cầu của Nga. Đó là, chính quyền Kiev phải công nhận vị thế trung lập, không gia nhập NATO; công nhận chủ quyền của DPR và LPR; công nhận Crimea thuộc chủ quyền của Nga." ("The conflict is moving towards a scenario: the Ukrainian authorities must accept defeat, stop hostilities and respond to Russia's demands. That is, the Kiev government must recognize its neutral position, not joining NATO; it must recognize the sovereignty of the DPR and LPR [Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republics], recognize Crimea as belonging to Russia.")
However, there are also articles sympathetic to Ukraine and its people:
"Hàng chục nghìn người tuần hành phản đối xung đột Ukraine" ("Tens of thousands of people march against the Ukraine conflict")
https://vnexpress.net/hang-chuc-nghin-nguoi-tuan-hanh-phan-doi-xung-dot-ukraine-4435349.html
To address your question, one would need to:
1. read popular Vietnamese social media pages/posts
2. scan comments on the mainstream media
3. talk to friends, neighbors living in Vietnam
On #1, some sample pages (from the author of ”Bên Thắng Cuộc“ and from the son of the poet "Tiếng Thu" ("The Sound of Autumn")):
https://www.facebook.com/Osinhuyduc/posts/4742680015767142
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=3182700992055116&id=100009457401127
On #2, some sample comments on the mainstream media:
https://vietnamnet.vn/vn/tuanvietnam/tieudiem/lan-ranh-do-cua-nga-va-lua-chon-tu-ukraine-818705.html
"phivinhquang - 9:06 27/2
The problem is the US-led push to make Ukraine join NATO ... Same seal with Georgia ... keep Ukraine and Georgia neutral and stop trying to turn every country into mini versions of USA ... mind your own beeswax USA.
fridaywithmateo - 2:21 26/2
it was not the USA that bombed Georgia and is now bombing the ordinary Ukrainian people. who to be like? Like Russia ?? where even now people go out and shout: stop the war, and get a club on the head. Each country has the right to choose its own path.
myloveazia - 18:42 26/2
The heck you talked about? Ukraine wanted to join NATO because they dont want to be the next Georgia and/or Crimea.
tnguyen.okcse - 21:05 27/2
The problem is..... Putin and his dream to install himself as the new tsar! Not the people in Ukraine nor in Russia have deserved a man like him. I'm far away from being a friend of NATO and US. But in this case Putin forces all of us europeans under the shelter of NATO if we want to stay free. And now worldwide a new round of military upgrade will start. What a mess!!!!!"
In the IT Age, while not all of the comments are from local people, to have comments with different views shown under the watchful eyes of the "editor-in-chief" is worth noticing. It is a small step in the right direction for Vietnam's press.
On #3, one or two VSG members already shared what they heard from local people.
As always, verifiable information counts. My previous post was based on two things: 1. a combination of three items listed above; and 2. my research on the dispute between Vietnam and China on the East Sea.
We cannot discuss Vietnam's recent UN vote without some knowledge about what's involved for Vietnam.
Cheers,
Calvin Thai
PS: One side note: At work, we often have brain-storm meetings. Opposing views are the most welcomed. In some instances after the meetings I hosted, I went back to my office, closing the door, banging my head against the desk as a "ritual" to give a thumbs-down to my own pre-meeting idea/view(s), and to express my appreciation to other idea/view(s) presented.:-)
Simply put, humans cannot reach distant stars without the ability to welcome criticism and respect different, opposing idea/view(s).
From: Carl Robinson <robinsoncarl88@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2022 10:32 PM
To: Joe Berry <joetracyberry@gmail.com>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu; Chris Giebel <giebel@uw.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Ukraine as seen from Vietnam?
Of course, what hasn't been mentioned in this discussion is that Vietnam also invaded another country back in 1979 - Cambodia - and suffered its own round of international condemnation and hardly any thanks for overthrowing the dreadful Khmer Rouge Regime. And China's subsequent retaliatory invasion of northern Vietnam was even given the green light by the Carter Administration. This was all on top of the sanctions which the US was already levying on Vietnam after the Fall of Saigon in 1975, including a trade embargo. There were even hopes that Cambodia would become Hanoi's own Vietnam, remember? Meanwhile, the continued US support for what was effectively the Khmer Rouge regime at the UN -- and aid to Thai-based Cambodian insurgent groups -- was, in my opinion, one of America's most shameful post-Vietnam policies. Vietnam's only real international friends back then was the Soviet Union and eastern bloc nations.
And going even further back, the US & others recognition of South Vietnam, ie the Republic of Vietnam, as a sovereign nation after Geneva 1954 allowed them to label North Vietnam's support of the southern insurgents as an "invasion" and all about preserving its "territorial integrity". The US then got the Saigon government to "invite" ground troops in to protect them. Then, we had the US/SVN invasion of Cambodia in 1970, of course.
Given all this remembered history, I'm sure the Hanoi Government had few qualms about its abstention at the UN. The ordinary person in the street might think otherwise and I'd really be curious to hear what members of Vietnam's so-called "Ukraine Mafia" -- led by that super-rich Vincom fellow -- are thinking. That is certainly where they made their first millions after the break-up of the Soviet Union.
Best regards,
Carl Robinson
USOM/USAID '64-68; AP/Saigon '68-75.
Now Somewhere in Australia.
On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 3:27 PM Joe Berry <joetracyberry@gmail.com> wrote:
Amen. A voice of reason IMHO.
Joe
From: Diane Fox <dnfox70@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2022 10:52 AM
To: Cau Thai <cvthai75@gmail.com>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu; Christoph Giebel <giebel@uw.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Ukraine as seen from Vietnam? /tweak to be popular responses as well, not just government??
Hi--
While I appreciate everyone's comments on the Vietnamese government's response, I was actually wondering what your friends and colleagues there were saying....how ordinary people were responding. I realize I muddled my question by sending the article focused on governmental response--but could we do both/and....also hear the other responses?
with thanks
Diane
Diane Fox
anthropology
writing on war legacies
From: Cau Thai <cvthai75@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2022 10:23 AM
To: Christoph Giebel <giebel@uw.edu>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Ukraine as seen from Vietnam?
Dear Christoph et al,
I would like to have some comments for the following points.
1. On whether Vietnam's UN vote made the most sense
This pre-UN-vote article is about what one might expect from ASEAN members:
https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/ASEAN-needs-to-uphold-principles-not-neutrality-in-Ukraine-war
The fact is out of 10 ASEAN members, 8 countries voted for the UN's Ukraine Resolution. Only Vietnam and Laos abstained.
After Vietnam's UN vote, the former ambassador to the Netherlands and two elder intellectuals, on behalf of different civil society groups, presented an open letter to the Chargé d'Affaires of Ukraine in Hanoi, expressing their complete support for Ukraine and its people.
Most recently, the former ambassador to Thailand, also an assistant of the late PM Võ Văn Kiệt, wrote in his article:
"Hãy can đảm nhìn lại lá phiếu trắng này đã gây ra những tổn hại gì cho đất nước, đánh mất chính nghĩa của đất nước như thế nào, làm bạn bè mất lòng tin đến đâu, và làm cho cái ác đi guốc trong bụng ta ra sao?!"
("Let us have the courage to assess how much damage this abstained votes has caused the country, how much the nation's righteousness and trust among our friends has been lost, and how we let the evil go unnoticed in our hearts."
http://www.viet-studies.net/NguyenTrung/NguyenTrung_KhongXemChoiGa.html
As written previously, in the fight between weak vs strong/bully, between good vs evil, it does not take a lot of effort to know who to side with. The decision can send a powerful message to any potential bully or evil.
This is especially important for Vietnam, considering its recent conflicts with China, in 1974, 1979-85, and 1988 respectively, and Vietnam' need to rely on international law in the long dispute with China in the East Sea.
In summary, Vietnam's UN vote was based on an out-of-date mentality, to say the least. Its vote did not adhere to the principles and did not serve the interests of the Vietnamese people.
2. On double-standards and racism
Double-standards and racism exist in most, if not all, countries, in different shapes and forms. I assume you have heard stories of how ”công an“ got away with murders but a regular John Doe received long prison term for stealing several ducks in Vietnam ?
Therefore, in my humble opinion as a former refugee, instead of discussing double-standards and racism seen in the Ukraine crisis at this time, one may want to use whatever available in his/her valuable time on how to help probably the largest refugee exodus in Europe since WWII.
3. On Cambodian or Vietnamese lives matter
The loss of a human life due to war is always a tragedy regardless of the person's background: black, brown, white, age, gender, etc. On a side note: as a student of the Vietnam War, when I saw photos of dead VC bodies, I thought about my two cousins who fought and lost their lives in “bên thắng cuộc", about their immediate relatives and also mine.
Therefore, we are in total agreement here.
Best,
Calvin Thai
Independent
From: Balazs Szalontai <aoverl@yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2022 2:05 AM
To: Thi Bay Miradoli <thibay.miradoli@gmail.com>; billhayton <bill@billhayton.com>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Ukraine as seen from Vietnam?
If we look deeper into the Ukrainian problem, instead of approaching it just from the angle of big power politics, it has some aspects that might generate feelings of deja vu in Vietnamese and Southeast/South Asian observers (see, among others, Cambodia and Laos torn between Siam/Thailand and Vietnam, or the Bangladesh War). This is a country torn between conflicting concepts and visions of national identity. From a West Ukrainian perspective, Russia has been historically regarded as an enemy, and Russian control over Ukraine, or even the recognition of Russian language as an equal of Ukrainian, implied a threat to national identity; hence, cooperation with the EU is regarded not only as desirable but as a policy directly linked to the definition of Ukraine as a European nation. From an East Ukrainian perspective, Russia has been regarded not just as a traditional friend and ally but also a nation whose identity is intertwined with that of Ukraine (see the widespread use of Russian and the Russian-Ukrainian hybrid language, surzhik, in Eastern Ukraine); hence, an anti-Russian orientation is regarded as unnatural, an idea supported and inspired by Poland and other hostile western nations. No matter whether the Western Ukrainians or the Easterners get the upper hand over the other half, a very significant part of the population feels dissatisfied. This is the real tragedy of this war. By pushing into the center of Ukraine, toward Kyiv, Russia is to occupy areas where the population had been more or less anti-Russian even before the invasion, and now of course they hate Russia more than ever before. It is a massive exercise in futile destruction. Russia won't be able to effectively govern these areas, so why to occupy them at all? After this war, a modus vivendi to reconcile Western and Eastern Ukrainians with each other will be even more difficult than ever before. In Bangladesh, the wounds of the 1971 war haven't been healed yet.
From: Bill Hayton <bill@billhayton.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2022 12:04 AM
To: Hue-Tam Tai <huetamtai@gmail.com>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Ukraine as seen from Vietnam?
I think the difference between the numbers may be explained by the difference between Vietnamese citizens in Ukraine legally and people of Vietnamese heritage who may have Ukrainian or other passports. (Plus who might not have been legally registered) Presumably the VN government only takes responsibility for those carrying Vietnamese passports.
There’s an interesting article here:
https://ukrainer.net/vietnamese-of-ukraine/
All the best
From: Balazs Szalontai <aoverl@yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2022 8:44 PM
To: dan hoang <hoangdanlieu@yahoo.com>; Christoph Giebel <giebel@uw.edu>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Ukraine as seen from Vietnam?
A further twist to the story is that the idea of supporting Ukraine in the name of democracy vis-à-vis autocratic Russia will never fly as far as the Vietnamese Communist leaders are concerned. They know very well that the U.S. might one day criticize them for their human rights issues, but Russia never would; they also know that the U.S. or the West European countries might actively support the opposition of a government whose domestic policies they find too repressive, but Russia never would. The Ukrainian revolutions against Russian-backed and Russian-oriented Ukrainian governments, aimed as they were to forge closer ties with the EU, were hardly in tune with the Vietnamese leadership's determination to maintain its rule ad infinitum.
From: Christoph Giebel <giebel@uw.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2022 7:38 PM
To: dan hoang <hoangdanlieu@yahoo.com>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Ukraine as seen from Vietnam?
Back to the article in Diane's original post. What does anyone expect of Viet Nam in this situation, given its historical ties, ASEAN membership, present security concerns, economic ties, etc.? All things considered, this stance absolutely makes the most sense. I don't at all recall Viet Nam in full-throated denunciation either of the US/UK's violent invasion of Iraq 19 years ago. And given the US' hostility to international law and accountability via the ICC, and its overall awesome power, who'd expect Viet Nam then to act any differently? Bush/Blair waged an unprovoked, unilateral, illegal war of aggression like Putin/Lukashenko now, against world opinion and dire warnings, based on a similar pack of transparent lies ("the intelligence is fixed around the policy"), willfully destroying a functioning civil society then in Iraq (1 million dead civilians, 7 million internally displaced out of 27 million) as we are now witnessing in Ukraine. When nuclear-armed world powers act in these criminal, outrageous ways--and are getting away with it!--what are smaller countries, caught in multiple dependencies, to do? When bulls and buffalo fight, flies and mosquitoes die, goes the Vietnamese saying. We all know that the "rules-based international order" is only invoked by superpowers as long as it suits their purposes. It was obliterated in the US/UK invasion of Iraq, without great consequences for the perpetrators, and I'd say the PRC drew valuable lessons from that sorry episode for the South China/Eastern Sea, just like Putin probably took note then as well.
So this article wasn't particularly insightful, but what I found concerning about the article is this sentence from the third paragraph: Hanoi may be under pressure to at least vocally support the Western condemnation of Moscow’s invasion of a democratic state. Not so much about the Western pressure (because parts of the West, after Iraq, have no moral authority whatsoever to do so), but the word "democratic." Is Putin's war on Ukraine only worthy of condemnation because it happens to a democratic state? Do civilians in non-democratic states not have the same right to peace, life, and happiness, and freedom from military aggression? In these subtle word choices we find, I think, Thi Bay's concerns about double-standards and racism. In the brutal invasion of Iraq, Western media looked over the shoulders of the invaders, concerned about their fates and--yes--success more than the horrible fate of their victims. Now they look over the shoulders of Ukrainian civilians, and their suffering is rightfully highlighted, when the trauma of non-Western civilians in earlier wars of aggression was not centered in wall-to-wall coverage. But Iraqi and, for that matter, Cambodian or Vietnamese lives matter no less and no more than Ukrainian ones.
********************
Christoph Giebel, PhD (he), Assoc. Professor, International Studies and History
Director of Graduate Studies, S.E. Asia Center, Jackson School of Int’l. Studies
University of Washington, Seattle, WA 98195-3650, USA, < giebel@uw.edu >
********************
From: Thi Bay Miradoli <thibay.miradoli@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2022 7:24 PM
To: koos.neefjes@gmail.com
Cc: vsg@uw.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Ukraine as seen from Vietnam?
Looks like some of them were able to take advantage of Hungary's offer to let foreign students to Ukraine continue their studies in Hungary (140 of them) and another 60 are headed to other European countries:
https://www.newsnpr.org/the-road-from-ukraine-to-hungary-of-vietnamese-refugees/
Thi Bay Miradoli
Unaffiliated
From: koos.neefjes@gmail.com <koos.neefjes@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2022 7:18 PM
To: 'Hue-Tam Tai' <huetamtai@gmail.com>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Ukraine as seen from Vietnam?
Dear Hue-Tam
This is an example of recent news on repatriation: https://vietnamnews.vn/society/1162913/second-flight-en-route-to-repatriate-vietnamese-fleeing-ukraine.html
Koos Neefjes
Director & Climate Change Expert /
Giám đốc & Chuyên gia về biến đổi khí hậu
Climate Sense
(Công ty TNHH Ý thức Khí hậu
MST/MSDN: 0107457832)
T3-25 KDT Ciputra, Hanoi, Viet Nam
Mbl (+84 ) (0)91 324 8270
koos.neefjes@gmail.com
Skype: koos_neefjes
From: Michael Tatarski <matatarski@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2022 6:58 PM
To: Hue-Tam Tai <huetamtai@gmail.com>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu; Judith A N Henchy <judithh@uw.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Ukraine as seen from Vietnam?
Interestingly, state media here in Vietnam has generally said there are 7,000 Vietnamese in Ukraine - though I'm not sure where that number comes from. Two special flights were arranged this week to bring Vietnamese back - one from Warsaw and one from Bucharest - but that was only around 300 people in total. I assume more flights will be arranged, though I also saw an article (can't find it now) which said that a lot of Vietnamese who have fled Ukraine want to stay in Europe until they can return, instead of going to Vietnam.
From: Hue-Tam Tai <huetamtai@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2022 6:45 PM
To: Judith A N Henchy <judithh@uw.edu>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Ukraine as seen from Vietnam?
I understand there are/were 50 000 Vietnamese in Ukraine, probably students or guest workers. They may have tried to flee from the indiscriminate attacks against civilian targets.
The accepted policy regarding non-Ukrainian refugees in Poland is to repatriate them asap. But the covid-19 situation in Vietnam complicates matters greatly. Does anyone know if Vietnam has enacted.measures to bring back its stranded nationals?
Hue Tam Ho Tai
Harvard University emerita
From: dan hoang <hoangdanlieu@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2022 6:19 PM
To: vsg@uw.edu; Diane Fox <dnfox70@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Ukraine as seen from Vietnam?
Hello everyone,
I only stand for peace and for people, not for the government leaders who create wars and make the poor suffer in any country.
My final email on this topic.
I think you can read this analysis by a CNN reporter to know why the war between Ukraine and Russia (exactly between Putin and Zelenski) gets tenser.
Analysis: Zelensky's heroism is coming up against Western red lines (msn.com)
And what has happened in East Ukraine by France interviewers.
Ukraina: Chiếc mặt nạ cách mạng. Phim TL về các sự kiện lật đổ chế độ ở Ukraina [HD] - YouTube
Ukraina: Chiếc mặt nạ cách mạng. Phim TL về các sự kiện lật đổ chế độ ở ...
Peace for the people in the world!
Lieu
From: Judith A N Henchy <judithh@uw.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2022 5:28 PM
To: vsg@uw.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Ukraine as seen from Vietnam?
Folks, Can I remind everyone that this is a scholarly list about Viet Nam Studies. The questions about how the events in Ukraine are being received in Viet Nam are certainly of interest to the list, and comparisons are tempting, but please refrain from slippage into more general discussions of US foreign policy or cold war relations unrelated to Viet Nam.
Thanks for keeping the VSG list a vibrant and respectful venue for scholarly discussion.
Judith Henchy
VSG List Administrator
Judith Henchy, Ph.D., MLIS
Head, Southeast Asia Section
Special Assistant to the Dean of University Libraries for International Programs
Affiliate Faculty, Jackson School of International Studies
From: Paul Schmehl <paul.schmehl@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2022 3:50 PM
To: Cau Thai <cvthai75@gmail.com>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Ukraine as seen from Vietnam?
I wonder if some of the historians in the group would like to comment on the echos of the beginnings of WWII that resonate with this action by Putin. First he took Crimea, and the world howled but did nothing. Then he enabled rebels in the Donbas and stirred up troubles there. The world howled, and supplied weapons to Ukraine, but did nothing else.
Now Putin has invaded a sovereign nation. The world is howling, and shipping weapons to Ukraine, but that will likely not stop Putin. When he finishes with Ukraine and turns his attention to Moldava, what will the world do?
We paid a heavy price for not stopping Hitler earlier. Will we do the same with Putin? (By “we” I am referring to the entire free nations of the world.)
Paul Schmehl
Independent Researcher
From: Vsg <mailman-bounces@mailman11.u.washington.edu> On Behalf Of David Marr
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2022 3:31 PM
To: Lady Borton <ladyborton@gmail.com>; vsg-owner@mailman11.u.washington.edu
Subject: RE: [Vsg] Russia, Ukraine, and Việt Nam in UN Alphabetical Order
It’s significant that Vietnam has long taken relations with Ukraine seriously. It’s possible that Hanoi might serve as useful intermediary if the time comes, hopefully not too long from now, when both Moscow and Kyiv seek to talk.
David Marr
ANU
From: Cau Thai <cvthai75@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2022 11:41 AM
To: billhayton <bill@billhayton.com>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Ukraine as seen from Vietnam?
Dear all,
Since Thi Bay was asking for perspective, I would like to share my $.02 :-)
When China violated Vietnam's sovereignty in the East Sea in 2014, Ukraine was one of the few countries voicing their support for Vietnam:
https://vtv.vn/quoc-te/ukraine-ung-ho-viet-nam-trong-viec-bao-ve-chu-quyen-141099.htm
Since tens of thousands of Vietnamese lived in Russia or Ukraine, it was not a surprise to hear their views in social media and on state-controlled media. Many, if not a majority, supported Ukraine. Several Vietnamese groups in Poland helped refugees fleeing Ukraine.
Therefore, I hope she can clarify the term "Vietnam" used in her post. In history, there are times the government and its people were not ONE. The government's interests (in their UN vote last week) were not in line with the principles Vietnamese inside and outside of the country stood up for.
In the fight between weak vs strong, good vs evil, the choice is not difficult to make.
A comment from Chargé d'Affaires of Ukraine in Hanoi after the vote:
"Trong số tất cả các thành viên ASEAN chỉ có Việt Nam và Lao đã bỏ phiếu trắng.
Việt Nam ơi, quê hương thứ hai của tôi, tôi rất thất vọng 😔
(Among all ASEAN members, only Vietnam and Laos abstained. My Vietnam, my second homeland, I am very disappointed.)
https://www.facebook.com/nataliya.zhynkina/posts/5099030790148617
Calvin Thai
Independent
From: Joe Berry <joetracyberry@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2022 7:59 AM
To: Thi Bay Miradoli <thibay.miradoli@gmail.com>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Ukraine as seen from Vietnam?
You make a lot mof good points. I should also add that the US’ hands are far from clean given the differential treatment of mostly white Cuban refugees versus the treatment of Central Americans and Haitians.
Joe
______________________
co-author with Helena Worthen, of Power Despite Precarity: strategies for the contingent faculty movement in higher education.
From: billhayton <bill@billhayton.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2022 7:12 AM
To: Thi Bay Miradoli <thibay.miradoli@gmail.com>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Ukraine as seen from Vietnam?
Who is ‘judging’ Vietnam? I’m trying to explain it.
'State puts interests before principles' isn’t exactly a news headline. Lord Palmerston said as much in 1848
Bill Hayton
From: Thi Bay Miradoli <thibay.miradoli@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2022 7:02 AM
To: mkaradjis <mkaradjis@gmail.com>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Ukraine as seen from Vietnam?
Dear all
I'm not sure why we decontextualized one sentence, that was far from the focus of this discussion, and made this about Putin's intentions.
The thread was about the Vietnamese position vis a vis the invasion of Ukraine.
I'm very grateful for Balzas adding context to the European perspective and I'm grateful to Bill for always putting forth great food for thought.
I was just trying to elicit better contextualization of Vietnam's reaction, a country bombed by the West and aided by Russia.
And I was trying to elicit better contextualization of everyday's Vietnamese who were able to study in Russia/Ukraine when nobody else would welcome them and who are now being judged for not taking a stronger stand in favor of those who are discriminating agaisnt them right this moment (and by the way social media is filled by Viretnamese standing with Ukraine).
On a larger level, I was suggesting the West stop holding Vietnam (and other non-western countries) to double, and sometimes impossible, standards.
The West has vested interests in this war that range from border protection given the proximity to EU member countries, international peace and security, fears of a nuclear conflict, energy dependence to, let's face it, the very profitable European energy market currently supplied mostly by Russia. Let's factor that Shell bought oil from Russia at $28/barrel and is selling it in the US for almost $5/gallon (then apologized in the face of public outcry)..And there is the romanticization of the Ukrainian war hero with western-manufactured weapons whose martyrdom has come to exceed that of Sudanese, Myanmar or Yemeni children armed with nothing but rocks and terror. None of this should diminish our empathy for the tragedy faced by the Ukrainians, but let's not pretend or imply that our concern is strictly moral or that it gives us the right to judge Vietnam's position without the proper context.
I'd like to leave this discussion with one question,
How's Vietnam's moral responsibility to take a stronger stand in support of Ukraine different from our moral responsibility to take a stronger stand with the civilians the Saudis are slaughtering in Yemen?
All I'm asking for is perspective.
Respectfully,
Thi Bay Miradoli
Unaffiliated, New Jersey
From: Hawk, Alan J CIV DHA J-9 (USA) <alan.j.hawk.civ@mail.mil>
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2022 6:13 AM
To: vsg@uw.edu
Subject: [Vsg] FW: [URL Verdict: Unknown][Non-DoD Source] Re: Ukraine as seen from Vietnam?
Just for the record, the United States accepted 1.4 million Vietnamese immigrants since the fall of Saigon in 1975.
V/r
Alan Hawk
From: Hawk, Alan J CIV DHA J-9 (USA) <alan.j.hawk.civ@mail.mil>
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2022 6:13 AM
To: vsg@uw.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] [URL Verdict: Unknown][Non-DoD Source] Re: Ukraine as seen from Vietnam?
I am curious as to what the Vietnamese make of the Sino-Russo alliance that was announced on the first day of the 2022 Olympics? What is their reaction to the Russian military’s rather lackluster performance thus far?
Alan Hawk
From: mkaradjis <mkaradjis@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2022 3:17 AM
To: billhayton <bill@billhayton.com>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Ukraine as seen from Vietnam?
No, Putin doesn't want Ukraine to be an independent country at all - he believes it has no right to exist, that its very existence as a state and a nation is just a big communist plot created by the Bolsheviks to destroy the Russian Fatherland, and so "consistent de-communisation" as he put it requires the elimination of the 'fake' Ukrainian nation. Here, read his speech on the eve of his invasion: http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/67843, or his longer article some time ago:http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181
Michael Karadjis
Independent Researcher
From: billhayton <bill@billhayton.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2022 2:28 AM
To: dan hoang <hoangdanlieu@yahoo.com>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Ukraine as seen from Vietnam?
"Mr. Putin wants Ukraine to be only an independent, unmilitary country.”
I’m sure that Mr Xi would like Vietnam to be an "independent, unmilitary country” too. Does Vietnam get to choose what it does, or does it take orders from Mr Xi? Does the same principle apply to Ukraine?
Bill Hayton
From: dan hoang <hoangdanlieu@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2022 1:42 AM
To: vsg@uw.edu; Diane Fox <dnfox70@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Ukraine as seen from Vietnam?
Hello Diane and VSGers,
Our Vietnamese people want to get friendly with everyone in the world. We want to stop the conflict of Russia and Ukraine by peaceful solutions more than standing on one side to protect against another. We want the government leaders of the Russia, UK, US, EU, China, and Ukraine to sit together to unlock the conflicts because this war already divided the countries into different groups. I don't support the US sanctioning Russia because it causes different economic consequences for the poor people in the world and breaks all international relationships. For academics, the boycott of Russian Universities is unfair and violates academic freedom, international cooperation as Russian Universities do not participate in the State conflict.
The more this war lasts, the more people die and threaten world peace because of the mass of war weapons that have been used and the threat of nuclear war. Most innocent people flee from the Ukr. to other EU countries with fears and tears. I wonder, why when two persons beat each other, others don't pull them out, but also bring more weapons to one of them for the fight to become tenser? NATO floods Ukraine with weapons
NATO floods Ukraine with weapons
In a global weapons-running program without precedent in post-World War II history, more than 20 countries, incl...
I read and know that Ukraine President Zelensky wants Ukraine to join the NATO and that makes Mr. Putin feel unsafe for Russia. Mr. Putin wants Ukraine to be only an independent, unmilitary country. The conflicts among people who are Russian and other nationalists in East Ukraine also call Mr. Putin to solve to protect the Russians there.
Vietnamese people have a long-lasting friendship with Russia and they have helped us in many ways so we don't want to lose this friendship. How we can betray one who has helped us, betray a good friend? We respect all countries in the world, including Ukraine and we pray for peace for the people there as well as all other countries in the world.
I don't see the US President Biden solving the conflict in the world by diplomatic, peaceful way as he states: (“we must start with diplomacy rooted in America’s most cherished democratic values: defending freedom, championing opportunity, upholding universal rights, respecting the rule of law, and treating every person with dignity) (Remarks by President Biden on America's Place in the World | The White House)
As Vietnamese people have been suffering too much the war consequences I pray for a peaceful solution among the government leaders more than sending more and more weapons to Ukraine and setting so hard sanctions on Russia, considering Ukraine's dream of joining the EU and Russia's dream of the unmilitary area of Ukraine for their safety.
This is my opinion and many of my friends' view of the Ukr. and Russ. conflicts.
BRs,
Lieu
From: Thi Bay Miradoli <thibay.miradoli@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 8, 2022 9:54 AM
To: billhayton <bill@billhayton.com>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Ukraine as seen from Vietnam?
In answer to both Balzas and Bill,
First let me clarify that when I refer to the West, I am not only speaking of Europe. While there are geo-political implications with this war that heighten legitimate concerns for global safety and stability, one shall look no further than the treatment of refugees to identify bias.
I have no (quoting Bill) "desire to assume that all Europeans are racist" I'm European and I hope I'm not racist :) As are many on this listserv who I do not believe are racist and whom I do not wish to be racist :)
The best practice to not be a racist is to recognize racism and to call it out, such as in this case (the implication that for white people war should not be expected as it is for brown people) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU-8gKaUO_Y
The treatment of refugees, both by comparing perceptions of refugees from Ukraine versus those from other parts of the world and by comparing perceptions towards white refugees from Ukraine and non-white refugees from Ukraine has been and is factaully different. This theme is very close to my heart and the subject of both my research and the work I do (I consult in various capacities for a series of immigration/refugee organizations and attorneys and I'm currently consulting for UNICEF USA). The huge bias in the treatment of refugees both by Europeans and the rest of the world in general is not just anecdotal but actually measurable in terms of policy, foreign aid, quotas and punitive actions vs rescue operations. Just a few points below:
Poland who is being praised for welcoming Ukrainian refugees just a few months ago was letting Syrian refugees die at the Belarus border (https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/commentisfree/2022/mar/04/embraced-or-pushed-back-on-the-polish-border-sadly-not-all-refugees-are-welcome).
There are also mobs in Poland attacking non-white refugees from Ukraine: https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2022/mar/02/people-of-colour-fleeing-ukraine-attacked-by-polish-
Poland, like many of its Eaastern European neighbors that now talk of humanitarian hospitality, till a few months ago talked of building walls: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/11/14/please-save-us-refugees-face-death-at-poland-belarus-border
Hungary did not want to welcome "non-chistian" refugees: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/hungary-to-help-christians-while-rejecting-muslim-migrants-1.2807543
Because you asked for evidence that non-whites were not allowed to escape Ukraine with the white Ukrainians: https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/03/04/ukraine-unequal-treatment-foreigners-attempting-flee.
Italy, Spain, Greece and Malta have shouldered the burden of the migrant crisis in the Mediterranean while other European countries stopped them at their borders, in some instances with really harsh punitive measures: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/the-french-italian-border-reveals-the-essence-of-the-european-clash-on-migration/2018/06/28/1f26dd78-732f-11e8-bda1-18e53a448a14_story.html
Even the Syrian refugees were welcomed disproportionately by a handful of countries, led by Germany, as attested by the link shared by Bill.
When Southern European countries asked the rest of Europe, pursuant to EU membership expectations for financial assistance, the UK was one of the first to oppose it while UK media criticized their rescue efforts. The EU replaced Marenostrum, an Italian rescue mission, with Frontex, a border protection one.
And while I'm immensely proud of the Italian Coast Guard, Navy and struggling fishermen for all their efforts, and occasionally risking their own lives, to save migrants drowning in the mediterranean, there is also a rightwing wing of the Italian government that has criminalized fishermen and NGOs for literally rescuing drowning children.
Anyone who spends five minutes on social media knows that the world has an extra layer of compassion for the plight of the Ukraininas versus that of the Yemeni or Sudanese also experiencing war.
I realize that this deviates from the theme of the list serve, which is Vietnam studies, but I also believe that we cannot talk of Vietnamese bias if we first do not face our own.
I'm attaching an article I wrote for Vietnamese media about this very topic a few years ago. It doesn't meet the scholarly standards of this group (which is why I never share anything I write here) and definitely not one of my best pieces, written in a rush and then redacted/translated by the paper. But there is a reason why they asked me to write about this, or the other topics I'm typically asked to write about, that should give us pause that we need to disaggregate our own bias from what we feel is a Vietnamese bias.
Thi Bay Miradoli
Unaffiliated, New Jersey
From: billhayton <bill@billhayton.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 8, 2022 8:33 AM
To: Thi Bay Miradoli <thibay.miradoli@gmail.com>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Ukraine as seen from Vietnam?
The idea that Europeans have closed the door to non-white refugees needs to be dispelled immediately. According to the UNHCR there are over 1 million refugees from Syria (alone) in European countries.
And what evidence is there for the statement that "all the other non-white people the Ukraininas did not let on the white people train to safety”? The Ukrainians prioritised mothers and children in the first wave of departures - and students were neither. As far as I can tell from news reports there has been no discrimination (by ethnicity) in subsequent departures.
This desire to assume that all Europeans are racists is really not helpful.
Yours
Bill Hayton
From: Thi Bay Miradoli <thibay.miradoli@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 8, 2022 7:37 AM
To: Ben Quick <bnquick74@gmail.com>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Ukraine as seen from Vietnam?
Dear all,
if I may add some anecdotal evidence from conversations with friends in the media and academia in Vietnam, while, as mentioned, everyone is saddened by the war with mixed opinions over what the course of action/position of Vietnam should be, a lot of people are astounded by the empathy bias demonstrated by the West. Heightened fears because of the largest implications (nuclear war, closeness to other European countries, energy and refugee crisis) aside, my Vietnamese friends are equally appalled as I am by our disproportionate outpour of empathy versus the Ukrainian people versus that reserved (or not) for all other people experiencing war, occupation or currently displaced. Most of their questions are around whether we think the bias is due to race or the fact that it is Putin waging the war and not a western country.
In terms of policy alliances, let's alo consider this, Italians will always side with the US, no matter what, even when US troops indiscriminately kill Italian civilians, because of a lifelong debt to the US for liberating the country during WWII. We can't blame the Vietnamese for feeling indebted to the Russians and/or thorn between Russia and Ukraine, two countries who welcomed them when nobody else did.
So, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I do not think we can look at the reactions of the Vietnamese in a vacuum, without considering how our reaction might in turn elicit theirs (not because ours matters more but because we take them for granted while they do not). Or else this will be Covid in Vietnam all over again where we look for their failures under every possible angle while ignoring the endless comedy of errors committed by the west.
Let's ask ourselves this, would Germany have suspended its military aid moratorium for the first time since WWII to help Vietnam had China invaded it? Would Italy have suspended its constitutional prohibition to provide military aid to a country involved in conflict if China had invaded Vietnam? Would the entire world's empathy be reserved for the Vietnamese (and not the Ukrainians, the Yemeni, the Syrians, the Sudanese, the Palestinians etc. ) in case of a Chinese invasion? Maybe yes, since when we demonize other invaders (Russian, China) we feel less guilty about our own transgressions. Or maybe not because Vietnamese students where among all the other non-white people the Ukraininas did not let on the white people train to safety and among those turned down at the Poland border. I really do not have the answer to this, but it is worth pondering about it. The Vietnamese surely are.
Thi Bay Miradoli
Unaffiliated, New Jersey
From: Balazs Szalontai <aoverl@yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, March 8, 2022 5:50 AM
To: Bill Hayton <bill@billhayton.com>; Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Ukraine as seen from Vietnam?
Well, the UN General Assembly condemned Myanmar's Rohingya policy as early as 2019-2020 (i.e., before the 2021 coup), at which time Russia was one of the very few states (the others included China and Vietnam) which opposed the resolution:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-50931565
https://www.irrawaddy.com/news/burma/myanmar-condemns-un-rohingya-resolution.html
Now Myanmar is repaying the favor, so to say, and shows the finger to those who had criticized *its* policies.
BTW, I was partially in error re ASEAN. Their March 3 statement didn't mention territorial integrity, but the February 26 statement did. Still, neither the first nor the second mentioned the country with which Ukraine happens to have some sort of disagreements at present.
Balazs
From: Bill Hayton <bill@billhayton.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 8, 2022 5:23 AM
To: Balazs Szalontai <aoverl@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Ukraine as seen from Vietnam?
(And let us remember that Myanmar’s UN vote is still wielded by a representative of the former civilian government.)
Bill
From: Balazs Szalontai <aoverl@yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, March 8, 2022 4:45 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Ukraine as seen from Vietnam?
Dear Ben, Bill, Diane, and others,
let me add one more angle to the considerations influencing Vietnam's stance on the Russian-Ukrainian war. In a manner resembling the intra-ASEAN disputes over the Chinese-Vietnamese-Cambodian conflict (1978-79), ASEAN is badly divided over the Russian invasion, with Myanmar and Singapore representing the opposite poles: https://vietnamtimes.org.vn/asean-foreign-ministers-calls-for-peace-in-ukraine-40329.html . For the sake of unity and harmony, ASEAN issued a fairly bland and evasive statement that piously called upon "all parties" to refrain from killing each other, and did not mention such indecent and biased words as territorial integrity, let alone the name of the state whose troops somehow found themselves in Ukraine: https://asean.org/asean-foreign-ministers-statement-calling-for-a-ceasefire-in-ukraine/ . Under such conditions, the Vietnamese government had some additional reason to be as neutral as possible.
All the best,
Balazs Szalontai
Korea University, Sejong Campus
Department of Donetsk-Luhansk-Putinsk Studies
From: Ben Quick <bnquick74@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 8, 2022 3:50 AM
To: billhayton <bill@billhayton.com>
Cc: vsg@uw.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Ukraine as seen from Vietnam?
Bill, Diane, and others,
I can only offer anecdotal evidence from the ground, but as far as I can see, public opinion is quite different than govt policy in this case. Among friends and neighbors there is shock and horror at the invasion. I understand why the official response might be to abstain on UN resolutions, not wanting to risk relations or risk trade deals with either side in this case. It’s probably the only way to claim neutrality moving forward. I think people understand that, but I also think personal sympathies are with the Ukrainian people, even among folks who have studied or otherwise spent time in Russia. Very much in line with the rest of the world. This is my sense on the ground in Da Nang.
Best,
Ben
From: billhayton <bill@billhayton.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 8, 2022 1:59 AM
To: vsg@uw.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Ukraine as seen from Vietnam?
Hi Diane,
It’s not from Vietnam but it is some analysis of Vietnam’s position by me for BBC Vietnamese.
https://www.bbc.com/vietnamese/forum-60655623
In short, I argue that Vietnam is choosing interests (a pro-Russia alignment) over principles (a defence of Ukrainian sovereignty) partly because of where it gets its weapons and hydrocarbons from and partly because of a belief at the deep party-state strategic level that a Putin-led Moscow would always support the CPV in any ‘colour revolution’ scenario.
(The original English version is available if anyone wants to email me.)
Best wishes
Bill
From: Lady Borton <ladyborton@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 6, 2022 4:24 PM
To: VSG <Vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: [Vsg] Russia, Ukraine, and Việt Nam in UN Alphabetical Order
Russia, Ukraine, and Việt Nam in UN Alphabetical Order
Đổi Mới (Renovation or Renewal, December 1986) included the policy of establishing friendship and diplomatic relations with all nations. Today, Hà Nội has embassies from opponent countries, for example, Cuba and the United States, India and Pakistan, Israel and Palestine, North Korea and South Korea, Ukraine and Russia, making Việt Nam one of the most productive cities from which to work in international relations. As US veteran and writer Seul Jones says, "Hà Nội is large enough to draw interesting people and small enough that you can meet them."
In recent years, Việt Nam has played a larger role in international affairs than the country's size would predict. Việt Nam recently completed its second two-year term (2000 – 2001, the first term was 2008 – 2009) as a non-permanent member of the United Nations Security Council. Senior Vietnamese diplomats are old enough to remember the meaning of "war." They have used their positions to work as much as possible to foster world peace.
For example, Việt Nam hosted the complex Hanoi Summit between US President Trump and DPRK Supreme Leader Kim Jong-un, February 28-29, 2019. Kim Jong-un traveled by train and car. The effort to organize security, diplomatic formalities, and gracious hosting was huge. The two heads of state scheduled the Hanoi Agreement for signature, but the North Koreans withdrew at the last minute for an understandable reason. All the night before, Hà Nội time, Michael Cohen, formerly President Trump's fix-it lawyer, had testified all day before the US Congress in Washington. I'm sure the North Koreans stayed up all night, as I did, watching the hearings, which seemed to indicate that President Trump's tenure might be limited, making him an unpredictable and potentially unreliable signatory.
During the American War in Việt Nam, the DRVN had assistance from the former Soviet Union, particularly from Russians and Ukrainians working in Việt Nam with the PAVN (People's Army of Việt Nam). Vietnamese officers, professionals, and students studied at offices, schools, and universities in what is now Russia and Ukraine. Some married Russians and Ukrainians, who are living in Việt Nam. Thus, some Vietnamese are experiencing the personal anguish of worry about family members in Russia and Ukraine.
Given the Party and government's stated foreign-relations policy, Việt Nam's recent leadership role in the United Nations, the country's current international relationships and agreements, its recent history with Russia and Ukraine, and the fact that some Vietnamese citizens have close family ties in those two countries, it is not surprising that Việt Nam abstained during the recent United Nations vote.
Lady Borton
March 6. 2022
From: Diane Fox <dnfox70@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 5, 2022 11:34 AM
To: vsg@uw.edu
Subject: [Vsg] Ukraine as seen from Vietnam?
Hello Everyone--
A journalist with Yale SEAS background and years living in VN during the war there has sent this analysis from the Asia Times (link below).
I wonder what those of you currently in Viet Nam are reading in the papers and hearing from friends?
with thanks for your observations,
Diane
(Diane Fox, California
anthropology
writing up conversational interviews on Agent Orange)
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Tom Fox <thomascfox@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 5:52 AM
Subject: interesting analysis
To: Diane Fox <dnfox70@gmail.com>
https://asiatimes.com/2022/03/hanoi-shy-to-leave-moscow-for-the-west-over-ukraine/
Tom