Embedded Files
Adam @ UoM <fforde@unimelb.edu.au>
date Dec 4, 2006 7:21 PM
subject [Vsg] Lost contact ...
Hi
I am trying to get contact details for a lost friend. He was from the DDR
studying at Khoa Tieng Viet in 1985-86. He had an interest in blues, played
guitar and was perhaps called Thomas (though I am not sure). He was slight
and blonde. We did some playing together.
If anybody has contact details, or knows anybody who was at KTV at that
time, I would appreciate it.
Thanks
Adam
David Marr <dgm405@coombs.anu.edu.au>
date Dec 6, 2006 3:47 PM
subject Re: [Vsg] Lost contact ...
Might this be Thomas Engelbert, the historian? I think he's teaching
at Humboldt, but others on the list would be more up to date.
Adam @ UoM <fforde@unimelb.edu.au>
date Dec 6, 2006 4:20 PM
subject RE: [Vsg] Lost contact ...
Hi
Thanks
I Emailed him.
I was listening to some nhac xam - "Yeu mot ba gia de co chac an" - shades
of Robert Johnson ... "Yeu mot em dep lieu co chac chet"
Cheers
pham hongtung <phamhtung@hotmail.com>
date Dec 6, 2006 4:40 PM
subject Re: [Vsg] Lost contact ...
Hi Adam,
I think your German friend must be Thomas Engelbert. He is teaching at the
University of Hamburg. You may find him in the website of that university.
Pham Hong Tung
David Marr <dgm405@coombs.anu.edu.au>
date Dec 6, 2006 6:42 PM
subject RE: [Vsg] Lost contact ...
Hi Adam,
What is `nhac xam'? I only remember nhac xanh and nhac vang from the
critiques of culture czars in the 1980s...
Adam @ UoM <fforde@unimelb.edu.au>
date Dec 6, 2006 7:24 PM
subject RE: [Vsg] Lost contact ...
Hi
Nhac xam is the music from the guys who wander around the streets with
various weird instruments - I saw one once on the road to Haiphong with an
electric guitar running an amp and speaker through a Honda Cub battery. Very
cool stuff - lots of distortion, rhythm shifts and as you can imagine.
Basically the same sort of deal as the ld Delta Bluesmen. Busking.
Itinerant.
I agree Unis have gone to dogs. But at present they offer one hope that AJ
Fforde, 'Tay ta Hoang gia' as some of my friends over there put it, can get
a salary! George is doing very well at History - took his yr 12 exams in Oct
- he is in year 11. All to do with the Italian Renaissance. He is now in
Brittany. Sam is fine but has Asperger's. Copes very well. Lily is a doll,
as is Amy.
Had an interesting month in Nov visiting all those provinces.
If you had soft copy of the economic and political bai from the Update you
could slip me, I would appreciate it.
Cheers
Roy Hornsby <royby@royby.com>
date Dec 7, 2006 4:26 PM
subject Re: [Vsg] Lost contact ...
Reading your description of nhac xam reminded me of some video footage that i took in 2004 of pretty much the same thing.
I took the footage in an alley directly next to my own off Nguyen Dinh Chieu St, District 3, HCMC almost directly opposite Vuon Choui Markets.
The man playing the guitar and the woman behind are blind or at least severely visually impaired. The man leading them by the rope is selling lottery tickets. It is very common to hear these people going up and down the alleys in this area and of course the ploy is that the music attracts potential customers. This guy is not quite as "bluesy" as others that I've heard.
The weirdest I ever saw of this type of thing was a guy with a plug up one nostril playing a recorder type instrument out of his other nostril while a small girl with him begged.
I posted the two clips on the Web at
http://royby.com/flash_movies/street_singers_1.html
http://royby.com/flash_movies/street_singers_2.html
have a look, hope you enjoy the music and the lively activity in this one small hem.
cheers
Roy Hornsby
Tuan Hoang <thoang1@nd.edu>
Dec 8, 2006 10:32 AM
subject Re: [Vsg] Lost contact ...
It's great to see the videos, not in the least because the two songs are representative of the "Mekong bolero sound" and "yellow music" that Jason Gibbs and Philip Taylor have written on, respectively. These two love-lost-themed numbers were enormously popular during the RVN era, and apparently are still out there today.
"Nhac xam" has a very long history and, in this case, I thought the guitar sounds are the most interesting feature. Like other non-Western kinds, traditional Vietnamese music does not carry harmony, stressing instead timbre and, to a lesser extent, rhythm. The Westernization of popular music has rendered traditional rhythm to virtual non-existence, and one day, perhaps timbre too. (I've noticed that "dan tranh" and a few other traditional instrutments are still used in concerts at times, but whatwith the recent dominance of the
symphonic string sound and the decline of solo instruments, I have a feeling that their days in popular music are numbered.) Here, the guitarist bends his notes and distorts them slightly, as if approximating them to sounds of another traditional instrument. Not as "exotic" as sounds created by instruments of earlier age.
And probably very different too in regional influences. (Does anyone know the kinds of songs that blind musicians in Hanoi or Hai Phong perform?) Still, they are very much in line with the deeply sentimental characteristics of this tradition.
http://www.vnstyle.vdc.com.vn/myhomeland/arts_style/traditionaltheatres/hat_xam.html
~Tuan
Lauren Meeker <ldm28@columbia.edu>
Dec 8, 2006 11:00 AM
subject Re: [Vsg] Lost contact ...
Hat xam is a traditional music genre which was sung by blind musicians.
I do not know if there are any specific songs sung by the amplified
street musicians which are directly related, musically speaking, to the
traditional genre, although one can see a connection between the two in
practice since both forms are used as a way to ask for money. However,
both what I have heard performed on the street myself and the music
described in this discussion seem to fall more in the musical category
of “yellow music” or nhac vang than what is, in the world of
“traditional music,” called xam.
Best,
Lauren Meeker
Adam @ UoM <fforde@unimelb.edu.au>
date Dec 8, 2006 2:26 PM
subject RE: [Vsg] Lost contact ...
Genre is always a tricky word when music is concerned. Usually it both gets
in the way of, and helps, musicians. At least in my experience.
What I found most interesting about the music was the sensibility, as I
experienced it and as the 'owner of the tape' experienced it. As least as I
experienced what he said he was experiencing ... Or rather what I think I
was experiencing ...
So one can feel a connection (a la Wittgenstein) in ways that are different
from seeing a connection, or at least thinking you do.
As Miles Davis said - 'All I want to do is know all the chords'. I think he
was being ironic.
Adam
Diem Ngoc Nguyen <ndnguyen@unc.edu>
date Dec 9, 2006 2:06 PM
subject [Vsg] Re: nhac xam
Dear VSG List,
To learn more about "hat x?m", please go to some following links.
Unfortunately, they are in Vietnamese. Hopefully, some of you can read.
1. http://giaidieuxanh.vietnamnet.vn/nhacviet/2005/08/474967/
2. http://www.tntp.org.vn/index.asp?progid=20002&newsid=1021&npid=3&npcid=56
3. http://www.thanhnien.com.vn/Vanhoa/2006/7/14/155640.tno
4. http://www.danchimviet.com/php/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2429
...
From what I have learned, there are some different theories about "hat
x?m". It may be sung by "blind people", but not always; it is called
"hat x?m" also because it is sung when sunset.
"Hat x?m" has a long history. It started from 13th history.
Instead of distinguishing "nh?c x?m" with "nhac vang" (yellow music),
"nhac do" (red music)..., we should do it with "cai luong", "cheo", "ho
quang", "hat boi", ect. I do not see any relation between it with
"nhac vang", "nhac xanh", and "nhac do" to make a comparison here. We
should be aware that "x?m" mean "blind" or "dark", not "xam" as grey
color.
I remember when I was just a little girl, I usually heard this kind of
music, and even sang sometimes. My understading at that time is that
when singing those singers, besides basing on the music, created new
words to tell listeners about their lives, their thinking, and their
feelings.
I hope this may help to clarify some.
Warmly regards,
Lan PHAMNGOC <lan_phamngoc@yahoo.com>
date Dec 9, 2006 8:32 AM
subject Re: [Vsg] Ha't xa^?m... and De^' me`n
Talking of "ha't xa^?m", I remember a very old song by Le^ Thu*o*ng, very popular to my generation, titled "Tha(`ng Cuo^.i". Part of the lyrics:
Ca'c con de^' me`n
Suo^'t trong dde^m khuya
Ha't xa^?m kho^ng tie^`n
Ne^n nghe`o xa'c xo*
PNLan
Hoang t. Dieu-Hien <dieuhien@u.washington.edu>
date Dec 9, 2006 8:50 AM
subject Re: [Vsg] Ha't xa^?m... and De^' me`n
... va` ne^n nghe`o xa'c xo*
Wonder if "ha't xa^?m" did not take on new meanings to include the activities of modern day blind itinerant musicians? Or, rather, "ha't xa^?m" has transformed to cater to modern day consumers?
dh
Adam @ UoM <fforde@unimelb.edu.au>
date Dec 9, 2006 2:17 PM
subject RE: [Vsg] Ha't xa^?m... and De^' me`n
Thus 'nhac xam' rather than 'hat xam' - guitars are very portable.
For me it was a way of explaining to a white guy what we were listening to, which had clearly been recorded 'in a primitive manner' - two mikes and a recorder. Guitar was acoustic, metal strings, cheap by the sound of it.
It sounded to me, as a musician, as music that drew heavily upon various fruitful traditions, including Vietnamese rhythmic and harmonic patterns (to my Western ear - 'what progression?') with repetitive stuff on the guitar that Bob Dylan would sometimes have found quite normal, if not sounding like a cop, sometimes weird. But functionally carrying the music forward and giving the voice something to play against, often with great verve.
Convergence with Delta Blues? Well, who knows? For me it seemed familiar, in part due to shared sensibility and performance context. Which includes the reasons why 'yeu mot ba gia de co chac an'. A joke I heard a few months ago in Melbourne is 'What do you call a musician without a girlfriend?' Answer - 'Homeless'
Adam
Dec 8, 2006 11:00 AM
subject Re: [Vsg] Lost contact ...
Eureka ! thanks to Lauren !
First time I read "nhac xam" from Adam, I thought of "nha.c xa'm" = grey music... I've never heard of it, but why not? There was "nha.c va`ng" = yellow music...
But now that Lauren is explaining "ha't xa^?m", and back to the definition of Adam, maybe he meant "nha.c xa^?m"?
Traditionally, there was no "nha.c xa^?m", only "ha't xa^?m", but new words are invented everyday, specially by the people in the street.
Morality : Vietnamese without accent is tricky !
Cheers !
PNLan
Aix-en-Provence
Hoang t. Dieu-Hien <dieuhien@u.washington.edu>
date Dec 9, 2006 8:35 AM
subject Re: [Vsg] Ha't xa^?m
My sentiment exactly. Never heard of "nha.c xa'm". And Eureka on "ha't xa^?m".
In my opinion, Vietnamese without accents is misspelled Vietnamese.
I find it curious that the itinerant performers in Hanoi always sing with a southern accent. Are they really southerners who travelled north to make a living this way or do they imitate their southern counterparts for some reason? The kind of music that they sing is definitely a particular type of "nha.c va`ng". The southern intelligentsia called it "nha.c se^'n".
Would love to see an anthropological study on this topic.
Hien
Michael Gray <maigray@yahoo.com>
date Dec 9, 2006 8:54 AM
subject Re: [Vsg] Ha't xa^?m
Hi Lan,
I find the story of hat xam (or nhac xam) fascinating,
and I wrote a rather long essay on the link between
the original music (hat xam) and the current form of
men roaming the street with electric guitars, which
you can find on my website at
http://www.michaelgray.ca/Writing/Songs/Songs_story.html
Several years after I wrote the essay, I had the
chance to travel to Ninh Binh and meet Ha Thi Cau, who
is widely considered the 'last surviving' hat xam
performer. At least of the 'authentic' variety -
singing 'nhac xam' as opposed to southern nhac vang,
pop songs, or whatever. What I find very interesting
is that the Communists had a role in the demise of the
artform, when they removed hat xam from the streets in
the 1950s/60s. They evidently felt it was 'begging'
and hat xam was certainly not a music form that the
Communists considered part of the traditional culture
they were willing to promote (unlike quan ho, which
from what I've read at the height of Communism was
promoted as an indigenous peasant 'progressive'
artform). Hat xam was just beggar music. But this
attitude has softened and there is now a mini-revival
of hat xam, and a few CDs have been produced by the
Music Institute (sorry, I forget the official title)
using artists that may be blind, but are certainly not
former-street singers like Ha Thi Cau. She is
recognised as a meritorious artist, however, and has
been invited to Hanoi several times in the last few
years to perform. So hat xam is being rehabilitated,
if you will. The old blind singers are probably all
long gone. I would certainly love to meet any still
alive! Ha Thi Cau is a treasure, may she live many
more years. Anyone who has the chance to hear her
perfom should definitely do so.
Regards,
Mike
Lauren Meeker <ldm28@columbia.edu>
date Dec 9, 2006 9:47 AM
subject Re: [Vsg] Ha't xa^?m
Dear Michael,
Thanks for the links. Yes, the Vietnamese Institute of Musicology has
been active in researching and put out some CDs on hat xam recently
including "Xam Ha Noi" in 2005 (with Xuan Hoach, Tuyet Hoa, Thanh Ngoan,
Doan Thanh Binh and Van Ty).
Regards,
Tuan Hoang <thoang1@nd.edu>
date Dec 9, 2006 11:44 AM
subject Re: [Vsg] Ha't xa^?m
Watching the videos again, I realized how mistaken I was to have lumped the songs in the videos to "hat xam" as traditionally known. Musically speaking, there's nothing in common. The guitar sounds of bolero songs are just that: straight-up bolero "nhac vang" tunes, with some ties to "cai luong" music. But there are sociological linkages between past and present, and it sounds to be the more interesting story.
~Tuan
Adam @ UoM <fforde@unimelb.edu.au>
date Dec 9, 2006 2:07 PM
subject RE: [Vsg] Ha't xa^?m
Unless my ears were awry, it was with 'nhac xam' with a 'hoi'. And 'my interlocutor was speaking the demotic variant of the language'
Perhaps he meant something like 'You know, minstrel music' ...
Adam
Adam @ UoM <fforde@unimelb.edu.au>
date Dec 9, 2006 2:09 PM
subject RE: [Vsg] Ha't xa^?m
The tape that we were listening to had been bought off of a barrow, with no
label, licence or anything like that.
Adam
Lan PHAMNGOC <lan_phamngoc@yahoo.com>
date Dec 11, 2006 1:36 AM
subject Re: [Vsg] Ha't xa^?m
For those interested in the traditional Ha't xa^?m, this is a short article in vietnamese :
http://www.tntp.org.vn:80/index.asp?progid=20002&newsid=1021&npid=3&npcid=56
Pha.m Ngo.c La^n
Page updated
Report abuse