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From: jkirk <jkirk@spro.net>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 3:16 PM
Attachments: caption on boy with chicken.jpg, caption on boy with duck.jpg
Greetings all,
I recently was admitted to the vsg list, and am learning a lot from it. I write to ask if someone on the list could help me. I need someone who can read and translate small notations on five
woodblock prints that I purchased in HaNoi in January, before Tet. I scanned (what I'd call) only 'captions,' but on some scans the whole picture is viewable or partly viewable due to the placement of writing in the pictures. I'm attaching sample jpgs of what I mean.
Pretty please............? I need to find someone as soon as possible for a small project .
Thanks in advance for any assistance,
Best wishes
Joanna Kirkpatrick
Anthropologist
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From: will pore <willpore@gmail.com>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 4:10 PM
Dear Joanna,
The translation of the second caption is the cliched expression
"riches and honor." The radical for the first character on the first
panel is too indistinct to discern in the image you sent, but the
second character of the two indicates that it is the name of a kind of
flower.
Will Pore
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From: T. Nguyen <nguyenthanhbl@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 3:46 PM
Hi:
On the right are "Phu Quy" and one the left are "Vinh Hoa." The words on the left are not the name of a flower and they mean glory, eminence, honors,or superiority.
Best,
Thanh Nguyen
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From: will pore <willpore@gmail.com>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 6:20 PM
No. According to the best sources (among whom I count the linguist Ngo
Thanh Nhan), the Chinese characters are pronounced 'thai hoa' (or 'cai
hua' in Chinese), which means cauliflower or rape flower.
Will Pore
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From: Rob Hurle <rob@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 7:02 PM
According to my Từ Điển Từ Hán Việt (Chinese-Vietnamese dictionary)
compiled by Phan Văn Các (NXB TP. Hồ Chí Minh, 2001) the characters
are quite clearly "hoa vinh" and the meaning of "vinh" is given as "vẻ
vang", which means "glorious" or "honourable" - the "flower" is
probably used in the sense of "beauty", but I'd be interested in more
informed opinions than mine.
Rob Hurle
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From: jkirk <jkirk@spro.net>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 7:02 PM
Well--here I venture to differ. Because these double "boy-infant or -toddler
holding auspicious birds" are meant to be pasted on doors at Tet, and since
one of them clearly reads riches and honor, the rooster one should IMHO
therefore read honors, eminence, etc.--all auspicious blessings to the the
family in the house on which these are displayed.
Cauliflower or rape flower simply doesn't make sense in this context.
Another Vietnamese source wrote to me and agrees with this reading, as well.
Here is what he wrote when he answered my initial query:
"The two Chinese characters on the painting of a little boy with a rooster
are “vinh hoa” (glory, splendor, high position)
The two Chinese characters on the painting of a little boy with a duck are
“phu quy” (wealth and rank)"
Best, Joanna
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From: will pore <willpore@gmail.com>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 7:29 PM
Rob,
If the characters are 'hoa vinh,' they are being read backwards, or,
that is, bottom to top. Is that usual?. But, on the other panel, there
is no real quarrel with the reading "wealth and rank." That meaning is
possible and doesn't differ much from "riches and honor."
Will
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From: T. Nguyen <nguyenthanhbl@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 8:31 PM
Hi Will Pore,
Well, I am afraid that your "best source" made a small mistake here. They must be Vinh Hoa and not Thai Hoa. Vinh hoa and Phu quy go together; not Thai hoa and Phu quy. Please check Huynh Tinh Cua's Dai Nam Quac Am Tu Vi, Vol. 2, page 553. These words are on Dong Ho's paintings.
Thanh Nguyen, Ph.D
Instructor, Vietnamese Language and Culture
Mission College
3000 Mission College Blvd.
Santa Clara, CA. 95054
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From: T. Nguyen <nguyenthanhbl@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 8:53 PM
I forgot to provide full reference for Huynh Thinh Cua's dictionary. Huynh Tinh Cua (1895). Dai Nam Quac Am Tu Vi. Saigon: Rey, Curiol &Cie. One can find these words in Cung Oan Ngam Khuc written by Nguyen Gia Thieu (1741-1789): " Moi phu quy du lang xa ma, ba vinh hoa lua ga cong khanh."
Thanh Nguyen
will pore <willpore@gmail.com> wrote:
Rob,
If the characters are 'hoa vinh,' they are being read backwards, or,
that is, bottom to top. Is that usual?. But, on the other panel, there
is no real quarrel with the reading "wealth and rank." That meaning is
possible and doesn't differ much from "riches and honor."
Will
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From: will pore <willpore@gmail.com>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 9:10 PM
Hi Thanh Nguyen,
Now I have to retreat from my earlier statement, because the scholar
Ngo Thanh Nhan has informed me that he apparently made a mistake. So,
you seem to be right. But you have to admit that the character
preceding 'hoa' is not very distinct, as are most of the others.
Thank you for your steadfast clarification.
Will Pore
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From: jkirk <jkirk@spro.net>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 9:44 PM
Attachments: toad or frog school.jpg
Sorry--another little question for you experts:
This is one of the prints--are they frogs or toads? I know that both animals are important in Vietnamese vernacular traditions. Is this a satire on being in school, or another topic?
The fact that some are playing leap frog makes me think they are frogs, but maybe in Vietnam toads play leap toad?
(Referring to the creatures at bottom right corner.) I couldn't fit the whole print on my scanner.
Joanna
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From: Shawn McHale <mchale@gwu.edu>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 9:52 PM
It's "Master Toad" -- Master as in a traditional village teacher . . .
Shawn McHale
Associate Professor of History and International Affairs
George Washington University
Washington, DC 20052 USA
(on leave, 2007-08, at Vietnam National University --
Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam)
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From: T. Nguyen <nguyenthanhbl@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 9:55 PM
Hi,
I am not an expert but they are toads. Coc = toads, Ech / nhai = frogs.
Best,
Thanh
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From: jkirk <jkirk@spro.net>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 10:55 AM
Thanks!
Joanna
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From: jkirk <jkirk@spro.net>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 10:56 AM
Thanks for offering the words for the two different animals.
Joanna
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From: Nora Taylor <nthanoi04@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 12:03 PM
They might be frogs and toads. The Toad is the teacher
and the frogs are his pupils.
Nora Annesley Taylor,PhD
Alsdorf Professor of South and Southeast Asian Art
School of the Art Institute of Chicago
Curator
"Changing Identity: Recent Works by Women Artists from Vietnam"
www.artsandartists.org
Tel: 312 345 3757
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