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From: Matthew Steinglass <mattsteinglass@yahoo.com> M
Date: Aug 11, 2006 1:40 AM
Subject: [Vsg] trafficking of women and Tale of Kieu
All,
Sorry to deluge you with questions, but having a community of experts
available like this is simply too tempting.
Here's the latest query. What is the relationship between the recent
prominence of sexual-trafficking-of-women issues among US-based Vietnamese
groups opposed to Hanoi, and the prominence of the theme of women trafficked
or forced into unwanted sexual relationships in Vietnamese cultural history,
e.g. the "Tale of Kieu"?
It may be a shallow connection to draw. But nationalisms are often
structured by key shared tropes, and those tropes are very likely to
reappear in the political self-organization of immigrant groups in the US.
For instance, when Nguyen Huu Chanh (founder of the "Government of Free
Vietnam") was arrested in Seoul in April, he was soliciting contributions
for an NGO called the US International Mission to build orphanages on Saipan
for children who had been trafficked for prostitution. I'm wondering to what
extent this theme of the betrayal of women's (familial) honor has played a
role in Vietnamese nationalism, and whether one could look at how that
relates to what seems to be a big theme in current Vietnamese American
politics (and one that helps connect it to Christian anti-trafficking
activism).
Best,
From: Tai VanTa <taivanta@yahoo.com>
Date: Aug 11, 2006 8:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] trafficking of women and Tale of Kieu
Dear all,
Excuse me for being frank about these below query and
hypothesis which may spring from not having the facts.
1. "The Tale of Kieu" was a Chinese story happening in
China and the fact of Kieu selling herself into
prostitution to have money to bribe the government
official to release her falsely accused father was a
Chinese event, with the connotation of Confucian
piety. The story line does not reflect Vietnamese
cultural value, but only the corrupt society of China
at that time. Only the genius of the Vietnamese
language in Nguyen Du's poems are Vietnamese. SO,
please don't draw inference about connection of Tale
of Kieu as a Vietnamese cultural thing with the
current women trafficking.
2. About Nguyen Huu Chanh, he is a "public figure" in
a sense, for all his activities during the past. So I
am not afraid of defamation charge if I say this now:
He is a crook that cheated money out of the unwise
people in the Vietnamese-American community and shamed
the mainstream Vietnamese community with all his
deeds. I personally know a Boston area resident (a
good community leader,well educated with a Ph.D. now,
after he quitted commmunity activity) who was his
former "Spokesman of the Exile Government of Free
Vietnam", who was cheated of his own money and tried
to get the money back from Chanh (without success, I
think). I will give the name later if I am sued in a
frivolous suit.There are many more bad news about this
Chanh but it is a waste of my time and your time to
talk about this rotten element of society. The people
in the Vietnamese communities who worry and protest
human trafficking cannot be assimilated with Chanh .
The Vietnamese-American politics may be using the
issue of human trafficking to shame the Vietnamese
government, but that is completely separate from
Chanh's deeds. Anyway, I disagree with using this
issuedto blame the government We can find other faults
with the Vietnamese government, but I think no
government, with concern about a decent reputation in
the world, would dare to sponsor that and the
trafficking may be attributed to only some officials
who close their eyes in bribery to let it happen, as a
criminal activity by bad people. In other words, I
would say it is not a government policy , but may be a
failure of government action. The shame should be on
other governments such as Singapore that (I read in
the news), sometimes ago, permitted a suit (if I
remember correctly) for money back by a man who paid
for a woman and then did not get the kind of woman he
wanted. In other words, shame on the Singapore
government that permits legal standing to sue by this
man and the legal ground for suing in his case. The
suit should have been dismissed on the ground of good
public policy and the man investigated.
So, please no more far-fetched speculation about the
facts of cultural connnection or Vietnamese American
community conncection.
Tai Van Ta
From: Thomas Jandl <thjandl@yahoo.com>
Date: Aug 11, 2006 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] trafficking of women and Tale of Kieu
Question RE (1) below:
Since Vietnam had a rather comparable system throughout the largest part of its history,
plus the very same cultural concept of Confucian piety, how could one draw the conclusion
that just because the story originated in China it plays no role on Vietnamese cultural
identity?
I would say from my limited knowledge of the Sai Gon taxi girl scene that the young women
there practically all refer to that story to justify their way of earning a living. In that
sense, it does reflect Vietnamese values perfectly. Just like in China, prostitution is not
acceptable, but equally just like in China, there are higher goods (like filial piety) that
override the cultural values of purity, chastity and modesty.
It can also hardly be coincidence that Nguyen Du struck such a cord with his Vietnamese
readers if the tale has no relevance for them in their daily lives.
Thomas Jandl
School of International Service
The American University
Washington, D.C.
From: Vietnam Indochina Tours <info@indochinatours.com>
Date: Aug 11, 2006 1:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] trafficking of women and Tale of Kieu
"Truyen Kieu" was adapted from a Chinese novel by Nguyen Du, not copied verbatim. If I
recollect correctly Kieu sold/placed herself as a concubine with Ma Giam Sinh in order to
secure the release of her father. The philanderer Sinh however was a pimp and partner with
Tu Ba in a house of prostitution into which Kieu was subsequently placed . . . was the
reality of her act of becoming Sinh's concubine--a not un-noble act then and indeed an
acceptable, yet lesser valued, alternative to becoming a wife, be it a first, second or
third wife?--known to Kieu? or was this simply a face saving explanation for her actions? Du
leaves us to our own imagination for this answer. I suspect that she did know, but one
cannot be certain.
That this poem has grasped the soul of the Vietnamese nation, nearly since its initial
publication, is a tribute to the emotional veracity in which it is held by Vietnamese who to
this day passionately associate with its meters. One would be deeply pressed to argue that
the poem does not reflect Vietnamese culture and reality.
Courtney
From: Tai VanTa <taivanta@yahoo.com> Mailed-By: mailman1.u.washington.edu
Date: Aug 11, 2006 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] trafficking of women and Tale of Kieu
Dear all,
I do not say, and would never say, that the various
philosophical and emotional aspects, and especially
the poetical beauty of this great Tale of Kieu by
Nguyen Du, are not Vietnamese . I have appreciated the
beauty of them ever since I studied this Tale of Kieu
in Vietnamese language very carefully in high school
in Vietnam.
I just say "the story line" of the Tale of Kieu is
adapted from the Chinese story, not a Vietnamese
story, including the sale/self-marketing of woman into
prostitution in order to have money bribe officials.
(The long poem, in the first few lines, say " In the
year of Gia Tinh of the Ming Dynasty"). This outcome
in the story line of the Tale of Kieu is not
something all right in the Vietnamese culture, in
order for us now to see in this Tale of Kieu some
connection with, or explanation of, the current human
traffic crimes in Vietnam and South East Asia .
Mr. Thomas Jandl said that the prostitutes in
Vietnam now try to justify their trade by mentioning
The Tale of Kieu and "it does reflect Vietnamese
values perfectly". That is an insult on the Vietnamese
people in general. That statement of the prostitutes
only reflects their own values, if one must talk about
values. But I would not describe their statement as a
statement of values, Mr. Jandl. In the spirit of
Buddhism, I would compassionately describe their
statement as an effort to find some meaning or dignity
in their life by comparing them to the sacrifice of
the heroine in Tale of Kieu, and they deserve
sympathy. But I would not say their statement reflect
Vietnamese values, i.e the values of the Vietnamese
people in general.
Tai Van Ta
From: Ogburn, Robert W <OgburnRW@state.gov>
Date: Aug 11, 2006 7:34 PM
Subject: RE: [Vsg] trafficking of women and Tale of Kieu
There’s a similar story in Korea about a young woman who becomes a kisaeng (a bit like a
geisha), and I imagine that many other cultures have stories dealing with this type of
exploitation. I guess the danger is using those stories to explain or even rationalize
current trends in TIP etc.
Robert O.
From: Matthew Steinglass <mattsteinglass@yahoo.com>
Date: Aug 11, 2006 8:28 PM
Subject: RE: [Vsg] trafficking of women and Tale of Kieu
I'm starting to think this was an off-base idea. But for the record, I think
there's a misunderstanding here: what would be important in the centrality
of "Tale of Kieu" would be precisely that it suggests how important the
theme of PROTECTING women against sexual servitude is to the Vietnamese
national sense of identity. (Kieu's sale into courtesanship is after all a
tragedy.) And that this sense of outrage at the betrayal of Vietnamese
womanhood is what is being invoked by Vietnamese American groups which also
in part use it to rally community sentiment against Hanoi, by arguing
(accurately or not) that the Vietnamese government does too little to combat
trafficking of women. I wasn't suggesting that "Tale of Kieu" (or similar
narratives of women's dutiful suffering for the sake of family) indicates
that Vietnamese culture condones sexual servitude.
But obviously lots of national literary treasures and myths involve similar
themes of betrayed womanhood -- "Eugene Onegin" comes to mind -- so I was
really just hoping for a response as to whether the idea made any sense.
Best
Matt
From: Grace Chew <gclchew@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Aug 12, 2006 5:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] trafficking of women and Tale of Kieu
I agree with Thomas. The fact that the story line is
well accepted by the Vietnamese public shows that such
values are not totally out of the world- it could
happen, or it has happened- I can't tell but the fact
that filial piety overrides many social/cultural
values in Korea, China, Vietnam, etc. makes this kind
of story line not too difficult to understand.
What happened in Singapore has nothing to do with
Singapore's fabulous public policy but everything to
do with business and Singapore has a liberal free
business environment-so welcome to prosper here.
In the case of potential brides coming to Singapore,
VNs are involved as well- it's not that I haven't met
these people. So I'd prefer not to blasphemize any
party but accept this as a social issue.
Best,
From: Tai VanTa <taivanta@yahoo.com>
Date: Aug 12, 2006 8:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] trafficking of women and Tale of Kieu
Dear all,
Just unbelievable advocacy on opinion of Vietnamese
culture and Singapore's free trade system !!
NO COMMENT FOR NOW , until I see some other opinions
of this Group, to see whether it is worthwhile to
REBUT HER in a continuing dialogue.
Tai Van Ta
From: Shawn McHale <mchale@gwu.edu>
Date: Aug 12, 2006 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] trafficking of women and Tale of Kieu
Dea list:
This "debate" puzzles me. Ta Van Tai seems to be saying that Vietnamese
prostitutes' values are not Vietnamese values, and thinks that it is
insulting to imply that they are. He also is asserting that the story
line of Kieu is actually Chinese, so that in *origin* the prostitution
theme is not Vietnamese.
One of Ta Van Tai's original points -- that the plot, with its
prostitution theme, was not originally Vietnamese -- is of course true.
I am not sure that this point advances the argument very far. Ta Van tai
seems to want to divorce the "good" parts of Kieu (like Nguyen Du's
genius) from its tawdry Chinese plot.
But isn't the point that the *origins* of a text matter far less than
how a people makes that text its own? This point is ironically
underscored by Ta Van Tai himself, who invokes Buddhist beliefs in
understanding the plight of prostitutes. Buddhism, of course, was
brought to Vietnam from foreign lands, but I don't think anyone would
seriously state that beliefs in compassion towards sentient beings are
not shared by many Vietnamese.
To the apparent point that one should not malign Vietnamese by comparing
them to prostitutes: has anyone really done this? Vietnamese prostitutes
can draw on the same repertoire of stories and values as other
Vietnamese. That's all that has been said, hasn't it?
Vietnamese have long argued over Kieu -- there were some strong debates
in the 1920s and 1930s over whether or not it was good literature or
depraved. In the process of these and other arguments, Vietnamese have
come to no consensus over what Vietnamese values are. The quest is
chimerical. Some writers, like the colonial era writer (and
self-promoter) Nguyen Van Vinh, was harshly critical of his fellow
Vietnamese. Most others have been far more laudatory. What is
interesting, though, is how certain texts are invoked and used in these
debates, and of course Kieu has been invoked many times.
One last point. A few years ago I wrote an essay in which I examined
practices in the Tran royal family that Vietnamese today would find
reprehensible: incest, stealing wives, and so on. As the royal family
and its entourage "Confucianized", these practices seem to have faded
away. it is these kinds of odd stories out of the Vietnamese past that
make me leery of buying anyone's attempts to define Vietnamese values.
What is more useful, perhaps, is looking at how Vietnamese argue over
certain issues, and how they define the field of possible answers.
My two cents worth.
From: Thomas Jandl <thjandl@yahoo.com>
Date: Aug 12, 2006 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] trafficking of women and Tale of Kieu
Excellent summary of the debate. I would add one thing about the last paragraph: It is fair
to assume that ordinary Vietnamese even in the Tran era found the practices you describe
reprehensible.
Nonetheless, these practices go on. And those engaging in them find ways to justify these
practices to themselves and probably even to others. And that's just what these taxi girls
do. They are fully aware of their low social status and reputation, but use stories that
have become deeply engrained in their culture to justify their ways -- to themselves as much
as to others.
I would be interested to learn whether the Tran royals also had their myths and stories to
justify their doings. Less to outsiders, probably, since the uppers generally have a lesser
psychological need for the approval of their lowers. But do they justify their actions to
themselves and their peers, and how?
None of this is my field, but it is fascinating nonetheless.
From: Tai VanTa <taivanta@yahoo.com>
Date: Aug 12, 2006 9:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] trafficking of women and Tale of Kieu
Dear all again ,
I want to stop for a while,even as I write this, my
effort to debate again on the issue of Tale of Kieu
and its possible connection with today human traffic
crimes in Vietnam (which connection was raised by the
original email of someone else, but I don't see any
such connection) .
But I have to say something about just one side issue
raised by what Professor Shawn McHale described as
"incest" and "stealing wives" in the Tran royal
family.
I would not describe the practice of marrying among
the Tran royal clan as "incest" in the sense of
brother/sister marrying, because--after the Tran
usurped power from the Ly Dynasty by forcing Empress
Ly Chieu Hoang of the Ly Dynasty to cede the throne to
her hussband who became the first emperor Tran Thai
Tong of the Tran Dynasty-- in fact, the Tran clan
members were encouraged to marry within the clan
(cousins of first or second or third degree ) ONLY as
a REALPOLITIK measure--starting with the iron hand of
The Grand Counsellor Tran Thu Do--in order to minimize
the chance for power to fall into the hands of
outsiders. The most notorious case was that of Tran
Thai Tong himself, forced by his uncle Tran Thu Do to
demote Empress Ly Chieu Hoang to the status of
princess and then marry his elder brother Tran Lieu's
wife (the empress's elder sister) who was three-months
pregnant, to ensure the Tran Dynasty an heir. Tran
Lieu rebelled but was pardoned. This shows that the
realpolitik practice is a drastic measure imposed by
the iron man Tran Thu Do. That drastic measure (which
was sister-in-law stealing rather than incest )was not
the general cultural pattern practized by the Tran
Dynasty because the Ly and the Tran Dynasty adhered to
the Confucian family law of the Tang and Sung
dynasties that Vietnam already adopted under the Ly
with Hinh Thu (Hsing Shu) or Book of Punishments, and
later under the Tran with Quoc Trieu Thong Che (Book
of General Statutes) and Hinh Thu (Book of
Punishments). The fact that Tran Lieu rebelled shows
that there was Sino-Vietnamese cultural values
against immoral stealing of wife, let alone incest.
More about incest in the discussion below. The
inter-clan marriages among cousins during the Tran
might have been among closer cousins than permitted by
the stricter rules in China (and Ok in American law
now) but still were not the kind of incest among
brother and sister, or father in law and daughter in
law, for esample.
More evidence of realpolitik policy of preserving
power within the Tran clan: in political affairs, the
imperial clan members played a more important role in
ruling the country than their counterparts in the Ly
Dynasty and occupied important civil and military
posts at the central and provincial levels. Imperial
clansmen were also given territories on which to levy
tax and corvee. Princes had separate private military
forces, that played a manor role in defeating the
Mongols 3 times.
My above discussion concerns only the imperial
clan. As for the general population, both Chinese law
(T'ang ,Ming ,Ch'ing dynasties ) and Vietnamese law
(the later Le and Nguyen dynasties, of which we have
clear evidencein statutory law still extant), incest
was severely punished, up to death penalty, because it
is contrary the two countries' traditional culture
(see our annotation of article 406 of the Le Code, on
incest, in our book THE LE CODE: LAW IN TRADITIONAL
VIETNA--in which we give details on all the
just-mentioned Chinese and Vietnamese law codes )
In short, one cannot say that cultural values in
traditional China and Vietnam, including the Tran
Dynasty, permitted incest among the general
population. Policy rationale: in the two
countries,people in those days married young
concubines and lived in the big clan household and the
legislator had to prevent the temptation of incest.
I will stop now on this side issue of alleged
"incest" in the Tran imperial clan, which I really
consider as an irrelevant issue not relating to the
original issue and hypothesis/speculation we debate (
issue/hypothesis not raised by me, but which provoked
me into this intervention ) of "the present day human
traffic and whether it was inspired by or explainable
by the story line in The Tale of Kieu".
Tai Van Ta
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