Nội tướng
[Vsg] Vietnamese saying - help please
vsg-list-archive
Margaret Suzanne Barnhill Bodemer <mbodemer@calpoly.edu>
Apr 24, 2016, 9:18 PM
to VietnamStudies
Hello VSGers!
I am hoping someone knows the proverb "The Woman is the General of the Interior" - and could remind me what the phrase is in Vietnamese. It's been rattling around in my head for the past decade and I quote it regularly but I can't seem to recall what the saying actually is.
As I recall (and this may be faulty too of course - ) the meaning has to do with the "interior" being a reference to the home/inside and references the private (vs. public) power that women traditionally maintained.
Cảm ớn in advance nhé!
-Maggie
Margaret B. Bodemer, Ph.D.
mbodemer@calpoly.edu
http://socialsciences.calpoly.edu/faculty/maggie-bodemer
http://history.calpoly.edu/faculty/margaret-bodemer
https://calpoly.academia.edu/MargaretBarnhillBodemer
San Luis Obispo, CA
Hue-Tam Tai <hhtai@fas.harvard.edu>
Apr 25, 2016, 8:24 AM
to Carl, VietnamStudies
While noi tro is an official job title (housewife), noi tuong is a humorous take on that description--though which is a more accurate description must depend on each situation, keeping in mind that one of the four virtues is "cong" which I generally translate as "household management."
Hue-Tam Ho Tai
Harvard
On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 4:11 AM, Carl Robinson <robinsoncarl88@gmail.com> wrote:
In modern parlance and the way I've heard it used, I'd say this comes from the existence of an Interior Ministry in government whose role is basically about controlling folks. So, when someone talks about needing to get home after drinking a few too many beers, that means their wife's on their case -- and they'd better hurry up. At same time, I've only heard this spoken in English by Vietnamese friends.
Best,
Carl Robinson
Sydney, Australia
USOM/USAID '64-68; AP/Saigon '68-75.
On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 4:05 PM, Vinh Nguyen <vinhnguyen68@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Margaret,
I believe the "proverb" you're inquiring about is just an Anglicized phraseology of the archaic Vietnamese reference of one's wife as "nội tướng" [内相] = "chancellor of the interior" (Đào Duy Anh, Hán Việt Từ Điển [1931], p. II:14), which can be (mis)understood homophonically into [内将] = "general of the interior" which is the formulation you're inquiring about. This is a more elevated form of calling a housewife "nội trợ" [内助] = "assistant of the interior" (ibid, p. II:14) or just "nội" [内] for short (ibid, p. II:12) as in the humbling combination "tiện nội" [賤内] = "[my] humble wife" (ibid, p. II:271) which is also quite common in archaic Chinese. The reason you can't think of a corresponding Vietnamese proverb/saying to the same effect is probably because it doesn't exist as such in the form of something like "phụ nữ là nội tướng" in the Vietnamese vernacular, or in Sino-Vietnamese as "phụ nhân nội tướng" [婦人内将] or even less likely "nữ nhân nội tướng" [女人内将] (since it would apply only to married women and not all women). Just my two cents and I'd be glad to stand corrected by others who can actually produce such a proverb.
Best,
Nguyễn Quốc Vinh
NYC-based Harvard ABD
Mike High <mike.high@earthlink.net>
Apr 25, 2016, 11:29 AM
to Vietnam
If I recall correctly, the Queen Mother in Huế was head of a separate administration of the "five palaces” for the royal ladies within the Forbidden City.
In this age of quốc ngữ, I suspect that many people take it to be “general of the interior,” which resembles the American tradition of referring to the wife as the “War Department.”
At least, that is how my bả xã explained it to me, and I was so taken with the expression that I made up a t-shirt with the phrase:
:: Mike High
Great Falls, VA
USA