DRV 1956 decree law
From: <sdenney@library.berkeley.edu>
Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 4:50 PM
To: vsg@u.washington.edu
Would anyone be familiar with a DRV decree promulgated in 1956, which
apparently applied to circulation of forbidden cultural materials? In a
1981 trial, Bui Dinh Ha was arrested for operating an underground
bookstore, and sentenced to life imprisonment, found guilty "of the crimes
spelled out in articles 4,7 and 8 of the decree-law 267/SL promulgated on
15 June 1956 by the Council of Ministers," according to Saigon Giai Phong
(6/26/81; JPRS 78913, 9/4/81).
I would be interested in locating the text of this decree or finding more
information about it.
Steve Denney
library assistant
UC Berkeley
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From: Balazs Szalontai
Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 5:15 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Well, this is what I found and wrote about it in my article, "Political and Economic Crisis in North Vietnam, 1955-1956" ("Cold War History" 5:4, p. 416):
On 15 June the regime passed Law No. 267/SL, which threatened those who ‘spread hostile rumours’ with a jail term of five to twenty years. The nature of this law indicates the leadership’s awareness of the potential dangers of growing public discontent, while its timing suggests that Hanoi’s failure to achieve the holding of all-Vietnam elections in July played an important role in the further curtailment of criticism. Since the re-examination of the land reform campaign also started in the summer, the VWP leadership had another good reason to worry about ‘hostile rumours’.
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From: Walter james Mc intosh
Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 5:58 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Balazs, While is true that Communist Vietnam in 1956 had good reason to be concerned about public unrest but this concern had nothing to do with not haing reunification elections. Pham Van Dong gave an interview to a French journarlist in 1954 right at the end of the Geneva talks wherein he expressed great doubt and gave slim to none chances that any such election would ever take place. It was only on 1 November 1956 that NVN announced that they were releasing 12,000 people from prisons and labour camps. But at the same time it was widely believed that at least 15,000 people were killed and another 50 to 100 thousand were either imprisoned or deported during the agrarian reforms. In spite of the fact that about 1.5 million people were granted about one acre of land . This was not enough to quell the major unrest brought about by the injustices and atrocties of the previous 3 years.Joesph Buttinger said : " The brutality of the cadres embittered not only the victims but also those who were lucky enough to have escaped persecution."
Mac McIntosh
The Lighthouse
Bluff, NZ
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From: Balazs Szalontai
Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 6:22 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
These estimates on executions and imprisonments are quite outdated. Buttinger published his books about forty or fifty years ago. I have found some more precise data in the Hungarian archives. See the attached file.
Balazs Szalontai article- DRV 1956 decree law
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From: Walter james Mc intosh
Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 8:06 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Balazs, The estimates in the hungarian archives are not accurate . Buttinger's statement , although dated is a valid reflection of the mood at the time.
Mac McIntosh
The Lighthouse-Bluff, NZ
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From: Balazs Szalontai
Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 9:41 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Well, it is one's right to choose what s/he considers accurate, but since the Hungarian documents actually mentioned a far higher (and more specific) number of released political prisoners than Buttinger & Co., I do not think they were much distorted.
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From: Walter james Mc intosh
Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 10:47 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Balazs, If I recall correctly , the only quote I gave from Buttinger had to do with the mood of the people in 1956 .. It was not Buttinger that made the announcement regarding the number of prisoners that the NVN government was releasing .
One thing I do know that relying on NVN internal records without outside references is a dangerous thing to do because of internal propaganda being part and parcel of the Communist system in Vietnam .
Mac
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From: Balazs Szalontai
Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 11:06 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
So if it was not Buttinger, then which sources did you use to obtain the statistical data on executions and imprisonments?
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From: <sdenney@library.berkeley.edu>
Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 11:41 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Thank you for posting the article, Balazs, it is very informative. But
Buttinger's estimate that at least 15,000 people were executed during the
land reform campaign does not seem that far off from other estimates made
in recent years. Edwin Moise in his book on this topic gave a range of
3,000 to 15,000.
The Summer 2010 issue of the Journal of Vietnamese Studies published a
translated Politburo directive from May 4, 1953, which said in part:
"1. The punishment of reactionary and evil landlords
"a. In this campaign, [we] must execute [xu tu] a number of reactionary
or evil landlords. In our current situation, the number of executions
is fixed in principle at the ratio of one per one thousand
people of the total population in the free areas. This ratio will be
controlled by the leadership and applied to the rent and interest
reduction campaign this year and next year; this does not mean
that the ratio will apply only to this year, nor does it mean that
every village will execute landlords according to this ratio. (Thus,
there may be communes that execute three or four people and
others that execute only one or none at all).
"Human lives are an important matter. It is not that we do not
want to execute those who deserve execution. But the number of
executions should not be too many; if so, it would make it difficult
[for the people] to agree with us..."
Those to be executed included not only landlords, but according to this
directive, "very special criminals": "leaders or members of the upper
elite in ethnic communities, Catholic priests, religious leaders,
democratic personalities, famous individuals, and foreign nationals: their
executions must be approved [in advance] by a Central Committee [Trung
Uong]."
This directive was published in Complete Collection of Party Documents
(Van Kien Dang Toan Tap), a 54 volume work authorized by the Vietnamese
Communist Party, that was the subject for discussion in the Summer 2010
issue of the Journal of Vietnamese Studies. In this issue, Alec Holcomb
commented on this directive:
"..That directive stated that the VWP Politburo wanted to see the
execution of one person for every thousand people during the more moderate
rent reduction phase of the mass mobilization.9 In other words, the party
leadership had already decided roughly how many people should
be executed during rent reduction before cadres had even entered their
assigned villages, and before they had had an opportunity to determine
whether so-called landlords were law abiding and “repentant” or not.
Extrapolated for the roughly eight million people who went through rent
reduction in the DRV, the May 4, 1953, directive’s execution ratio indicates
that the VWP Politburo wanted its mass mobilization apparatus to shoot
about eight thousand people during this initial phase of the campaign.10
"Because the VWP Politburo had operated on the basis of an execution
ratio for the rent reduction, the logic of which was defended in that May 4,
1953, directive, there is no reason to think that it would not have set a
ratio for the land reform phase of the campaign as well. And we may
reasonably conclude that any execution ratio for that more radical second
phase of the campaign, when the landlord class was to be “completely
overthrown” [triet de danh do], would have been considerably higher than
one to one thousand. What this execution ratio was for the ten million
people who underwent land reform, whether it changed over time and place,
and how the VWP Politburo came up with the number, remains one of the most
well kept secrets in modern Vietnamese history..."
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From: Balazs Szalontai
Date: Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 11:55 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Thanks a lot for drawing my attention to this shocking document! On my part, I actually expressed my agreement with Moise's estimates in my article, but the figure of "another 50 to 100 thousand ... imprisoned or deported during the agrarian reforms," which was cited by our esteemed colleague, seems unrealistically high to me.
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From: Nghia Vo
Date: Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 3:57 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
one per one thousand
people of the total population in the free areas. (J Viet Studies)
It is interesting that the VCP called landlords EVIL while the VCP's decision to execute (xu tu) people arbitrarily and blindly (landlords) is EVIL.
70,000-80,000 were thus executed--seems to be correct to me.
Nghia
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From: Mac McIntosh
Date: Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 12:03 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
As I am sure , most on this list know that there are wide range of estimates in regard to the number of executions and other atrocities committed by the communist regime in North Vietnam in the 1950's . Ed Moise's account and estimates are on the very low end . The estimates I used earlier came from research by Vietnam Human Rights Watch who's estimates are in the mid range of such published estimates. I am quite sure that Ed Moise's accurately reflect what is officially recorded in the Communist files on the subject but I have good reason to believe that those figures are not accurate . Just as if a scholar had access to VN archives and records regarding the number of US planes shot down during the war they would be able to report a number about 3 to 5 times higher than what actually happened . Just as these numbers got inflated right from the beginning , I am quite sure that the number of deaths involved in land reform and rent reduction were down played officially right from the beginning .
decree law
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From: Tai, Hue-Tam Ho
Date: Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 12:34 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Just an anecdote, not hard data:
Some time ago, I talked about the estimated number of executions associated with the land reform campaign with a friend of mine. His grandfather had been labeled as a landlord for owning 8 mau of land. His own father at the time was at Dien Bien Phu. The grandfather was not executed but he was sentenced to be ostracized by the villagers, including his own family. He was made to live in a hovel in the middle of ricefields. His children crept out at night to provide him with food. It was an untenable situation and the grandfather committed suicide.
When I visited northern villages over several years, it seemed memories of the excesses of the land reform campaign were very vivid and in many cases bitter. In fact, it was hard to keep conversations focused on the famine as people were so eager to talk about the land reform campaign. Certainly, my friend was very bitter about what had happened to his grandfather. Yet, he did not think that the figure of 50k was justified. Extrapolating from the few provinces he knew about, he thought the total number of deaths was probably 5,000-10,000.It's extremely difficult to estimate exact number of deaths (see discussions of war deaths or deaths associated with the famine of 1945) or crowds.
The figure of 50k came from Hoang van Chi, who was disillusioned by his own experiences. But I doubt he had hard evidence for that number. His figure was seized upon to make the case that, if North and South were reunified, there would be a bloodbath in the South.The same caution that applies to official figures should also apply to Hoang van Chi's figure.
Regarding the label "evil landlord," not all villagers considered the local landlords evil. Many were grateful to those who had provided relief during the famine (of course, before the Viet Minh spearheaded attacks on grain storehouses, landlords would be the only people in a position to provide relief in the form of rice gruel). But some were regarded as such by their own kin. A friend of mine took me to her home village and showed me large areas that had once belonged to her extended family but had been distributed to the tenants during the land reform campaign. She said dispassionately that her aunt had been executed as an evil landlord. From discussions, it seemed clear that the aunt had been quite oppressive to her tenants, some of whom were her relatives.
Hue-Tam Ho Tai
Kenneth T. Young Professor
of Sino-Vietnamese History
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From: Nghia Vo
Date: Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 2:09 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
In AID Paper by Christine White, p 38 the number killed during land reform was at least 50,000 not including those killed during the rectification period.
total: close to 80-100,000
Nghia
3. The dispossessing of landlords: here the Special Land Reform Trtl.bunal
enters into play. Thel'e are no exact figures on ho" many Inndlords were affected.
According to Bernard Fall, the best-educated guesses Oil the subject are that probably
close to 50,000 "ere executed in connection with the land reform lind at least twice the number arrested
4. Redistribution
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From: Tai, Hue-Tam Ho
Date: Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 3:03 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Nghia:
You realize that scholars quote from one another. Christine did not do independent research on the topic. She used figures from Buttinger et al who used Hoang van Chi's figures. Ed Moise did do research and was careful to mention the limitations of his sources. Balasz,too.
Ho Chi Minh used the figure of 2 million dead in the famine of 1945. How did he know that 2 million had died? He quoted from a newspaper. But how did the newspaper know? Journalists were in no position to carry out investigations. But since HCM said 2 millions have died, this has been enshrined in historical writings in Vietnam. Scholars based outside Vietnam have estimated the death toll as over one million but have had a hard time reaching the figure of 2 millions.
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From: Melanie Beresford
Date: Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 7:04 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
I think the arithmetic needs a slight correction here. (Apologies for being a pedant!) What was the population of the DRV in 1956? Maybe 10 million? possibly less. So 1 in a thousand is 10,000. Looks like Moise was about spot on.
cheers,
Melanie
Melanie Beresford
Associate Dean Research
Associate Professor in Economics
Faculty of Business & Economics
Macquarie University, NSW 2109
Australia
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From: Mac McIntosh
Date: Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 7:38 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Melanie ,
The population of North Vietnam was about 14 Million in 1956 , As you know they had about 1 million of their population flee from Communism in 1954 which brought the population in South Vietnam up to about 10 or possibly 11 million .
There have been a number of studies about the number of executions that took place in conjunction with the rent reduction and and land reform programme and Ed Moise's estimates , and that what they are - estimates -- are on the very low end of those estimates. Of course there were many hidden deaths that came with the social classification system that went with the programme. If one was claffified as any thing other than a poor peasant the chances of getting decent medical care were greatly reduced , those whose fathers were classified as the son's of rich peasants when drafted into the military were given some of the most dangerous assignments . In addition to rent reduction and land reform programmes there was also the programme to eliminate the petty bourgeoise which also took many lives. Speaking of that programme Buttinger noted " With a touch of megalomania which was in no way diminished by their victory over the French, the Viet Minh leaders embarked upon their self-imposed task, a truly monstrous one, since even its partial realization required inhumane methods."
decree law
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From: phuxuan700@gmail.com
Date: Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 8:37 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
I'd like to recommend two sources on land reform victims:
1. "Tren Nhung Chang Duong Cach mang (Hoi ky)", Vo Chi Cong, Hanoi, 2001. Vo Chi Cong was VCP Poliburo member and Vietnam President in the early 1990's.
In 1954, as a leader in the land reform campaign in Central Vietnam, Vo Chi Cong complained that the 5% landlord ratio imposed by Chinese advisors was too high (pp. 143-144).
2. "Lich su Kinh te Viet Nam 1945-2000, Tap II: 1955-1975", Vien Khoa hoc Xa hoi Viet Nam, Hanoi, 2005.
The late Dang Phong, then Dean of the Institute of Economics at the National Center for Social and Human Sciences of Vietnam, confirmed that the landlord ratio ended up higher than 5%.
A chart on page 85 of Dang's book shows 26, 453 "evil" landlords (dia chu cuong hao gian ac) and 82,777 landlords (dia chu thuong).
Calvin Thai
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From: Melanie Beresford
Date: Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 8:56 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Still within Moise's estimation range. But my only purpose in contributing to what has generally been an very unenlightening thread was to point out that one in a thousand did not add up to 80-100,000 deaths as per Nghia Vo.
cheers,
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From: Balazs Szalontai
Date: Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 9:18 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Yes, that number would have been too high even for the entire population of Indochina, with Laos and Cambodia included, if the 1:10,000 proportion was to be used. BTW, I wonder if any reliable figures have been found about the number of political executions in South Vietnam during the "Denounce the Communists" campaign, in 1955-58. If I am not mistaken, I asked this question from you, or on the list, about ten years ago, and I would be interested if any information on that has surfaced in the meantime.
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From: Melanie Beresford
Date: Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 4:54 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Balasz, If this was for me. No you didn't ask that question. I had some data on the land reform - but didn't then have the technology to get it to you other than by manual transcription which turned out to be too time consuming (my apologies). If I can find it, I could scan it, but I suspect it is already included in Dang Phong's work which is cited somewhere in this thread. I have no idea about the numbers of southern political executions in the late '50s, other than reading from numerous sources that it was a major reason for launching the NLF in 1960.Le Duan returned north in 1959 with information to press his case for armed insurrection in the south.
cheers,
Melanie
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From: Tai, Hue-Tam Ho
Date: Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 5:31 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
If the execution target was 5% of the population of about 14 million, the number of executions would have been 7,000. As Melanie says, within the range estimated by Moise, and in fact half of his high estimate of 15,000.
As for executions in the South, I do not believe there has been a study of the exact numbers. There were plenty of people incarcerated under 10/59, however. 10/59 was unpopular even among non-Communists because of wrongful accusations, such as one that landed one of my distant relatives in jail for three years without trial. He shared a cell with bona fide Viet Minh and learned to weave baskets as part of his rehabilitation (he was a small landowner).
When I visited Ben Tre museum in the mid 1990s, part of the exhibition described the achievements of the 1960s uprisings (made famous by Nguyen thi Dinh, though the museum had little information about her. A wall label boasted that 3,000 officials had been assassinated.
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From: Stephen Denney
Date: Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 12:15 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Five percent of 14 million would be 700,000. Edwin Moise's general range of 3,000 to 15,000 would seem based on the best information available at the time, but the actual number might have been a bit higher. I posted earlier an excerpt from a 1953 directive from the Vietnamese Communist Party which set a general quota of one execution per thousand people during the first phase of the Land Reform campaign, the Rent Reduction campaign, along with an excerpt from an article by Alec Holcombe, who commented that the next phase of the campaign likely involved more executions than the first phase. The translated directive and Holcombe's article appeared in the summer 2010 issue of the Journal of Vietnamese Studies, and the directive was originally published in the 54 volume Van Kien Dang Toan Tap, authorized by the Vietnamese Communist Party in 1997. He mentions that the total population in north Vietnam at the time was around 10 million.
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From: Tai, Hue-Tam Ho
Date: Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 12:35 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
My math was off--a not infrequent occurrence.
Still, I have not met anyone, including close relatives of people who were targeted for reprisal during the land reform campaign, who subscribed to the figure of 50,000 let alone 100,000 or 700,000.
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From: Mac McIntosh
Date: Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 1:17 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Steven , I note that in Spencer Tucker's book 'Vietnam' he says that in 1956 , even after the loss of about one million population in the North going South to flee Communism , that the population in North Vietnam was 16 million while the population in South Vietnam was 14 million . I have seen other historical population figures for Vietnam over all that states the total population in 56 was about 31 million . I also recall various analysts commenting on the possibility of unification elections in 1956 saying that since North Vietnam a considerably larger population than South Vietnam and a far greater ability to control the population's voting that free and fair conditions as required by the Geneva accords were lacking .
Walter James McIntosh
The Lighthouse-Bluff , NZ
Steven said :
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From: Mac McIntosh
Date: Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 1:33 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Hue-Tam , Memory and recall are very unreliable , If one did a survey of American Vietnam Vets who claim today that they held some fellow soldier in their arms as they died there would be 150,000 names on the Vietnam memorial in Washington D.C.
Many of the survivors accounts of the level of atrocities and run amok killings in that period are also quite inaccurate but the government had a vested interest and the means to supress the true data and extent of mayhem that occured. I have no doubt that Ed Moise's research accurately reflects the DRV's official figures but I do suspect that bias crept into his analysis . His estimates are on the very low end of the range of estimates.
Walter James McIntosh
The Lighthouse- Bluff ,NZ
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From: Tai, Hue-Tam Ho
Date: Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 1:46 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
According to the Annuaire statistique de l'Union francaise d'outre-mer of 1931, the total population of Vietnam was 17,7M; in 1943, it had risen to 22,612M, an increase of 5 million in 12 years. In 1945, the population of the northern half (north the 17th parallel, not just Tonkin) was about 12 million. Over one million died in the famine of 1945, all of them in the north.Would the total population of Vietnam have increased by 10 million in 13 years (taking into account the one million who died of famine)?
It is correct that the population of the north was larger than that of the south in the 1950s. This continues to be true despite the influx of northerners into the south.
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From: Stephen Denney
Date: Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 1:48 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sorry. Holcombe said ten million people underwent land reform campaign in North Vietnam. I had assumed this was the population of the North at the time.
I don't have any insights on how many people were actually executed, other than what has been written elsewhere, but what strikes me about the directive is that a quota would be set for executions even before the campaign began.
Steve Denney
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From: Tai, Hue-Tam Ho
Date: Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 1:55 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To be sure, memory is not reliable. I cited people who held bitter memories ofl the horrors of the Land Reform campaign and thus would be most likely to believe in high estimates. And yet, they were, to a person, incredulous when I mention the figure of 50,000.
None of them had heard of Hoang van Chi or Ed Moise; they extrapolated from what they personally knew about specific provinces and came up with estimates that were more in line with Ed's than with Hoang van Chi.
Incidentally, I was not doing research on the land reform campaign, but on the famine of 1945. I found that people were far more eager to talk about the Land reform campaign and what they and their families had suffered under that campaign.
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From: Shawn McHale <mchale@gwu.edu>
Date: Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 2:23 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To add to this confusion:
The text in question, cited by Steve Denney from the JVS, mentioned that this ratio of 1 to 1000 killed was to be put in effect in "free" areas -- presumably meaning the "resistance" zones. In his Economic History, Dang Phong gives the figure of 1.65 million in French controlled zones in the north of the country (Tonkin) in 1953. This would have to be subtracted from the overall population figure, whatever that is. To add to the above, I am assuming that the autonomous zones also should not be included when coming to a determination of the actual killed.
We also have to remember that land reform was rolled out at different times in different places.
Here is an interesting source on Vietnam's population:
http://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/36/92/51/PDF/BanensVietnamReport.pdf
The author suggests 11.9 million in 1954 for "Tonkin," 13.6 in 1955 for all of North Vietnam.
But most important here is that we do not know the relationship between a target (1 in 1000) and actuality. Some members of this list seem to believe that the target was reality. Well . . . why?
Shawn
Shawn McHale
Director
Sigur Center for Asian Studies
Associate Professor of History and International Affairs
George Washington University
Washington, DC 20052 USA
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From: phuxuan700@gmail.com
Date: Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 7:06 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
I had a chance to look up "Van kien Dang Toan tap", v. 14 (1953), nxb Chinh tri Quoc gia, 2001, today. This volume contains the quoted section (pp. 201-206).
Five different phases of land reform covered the period from late 1952 to mid 1956.
The May 1953 Politburo directive did state that the ratio of 1 to 1000 landlords executed should not be a fixed one and should be applicable in the following years.
As mentioned in a previous post, the 5% landlord ratio was confirmed by Vo Chi Cong, a VCP Politburo member, and other sources.
Dang Phong even put the landlord ratio set at 5.68% for which he said unrealistically high (See also "Van kien Dang Toan tap", v. 17 (1956), p. 426).
In his work, Dang cited 26,453 landlords as "dia chu cuong hao gian ac" - fitting May 1953 Politburo directive
for reactionary or evil landlord category.
This figure comes from a pool of 172,008 landlords (listed in the table on page 85) or less than 2% landlord ratio (out of a population of 10 million heads from 3,400 communes).
Dang granted several interviews after the book came out in 2005. Unfortunately, until his death last year, no one asked him what happening to the other 3% landlords.
Based on what I have heard about Dang Phong and his passion, I think his figures are more reliable than estimates from other sources.
Is it possible that Dang might have expected us to complete the maths ?
Calvin Thai