Cat vs. Rabbit
From: John Ruwitch
Date: Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 3:05 AM
To: vsg@u.washington.edu
Greetings, list.
At the risk of unleashing a torrent of scorn for not knowing the answer to what is probably a pretty basic question, I wonder if anyone out there can explain why this coming lunar year is the Cat in Vietnam but the Rabbit in China when all other zodiac signs are the same.
Thanks in advance!
Best regards,
John
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From: Tobias RETTIG
Date: Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 3:18 AM
To: "vsg@u.washington.edu" <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Hi John,
My understanding is that Vietnamese do not have any rabbits, so the next closest animal is the cat.
I wonder whether there are better explanations?
Cheers,
Tobias
Tobias RETTIG
School of Social Sciences | Singapore Management University
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From: <abcv552@city.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 4:13 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Hi,
The following is an interesting explanation:
The most plausible theory proposed was that when the 12 Animal Zodiac was introduced into Vietnam from China, the "Mao ?" in the Zodiac year "Mao Tu ??" (Mao Rabbit Year) has the same Chinese pronunciation as "Mao ?" (cat). Because the "Mao Nian ??" (Mao Year) sounds the same as "Mao Nian ??" (cat year), the Vietnamese had made a mistake in the writing and recorded it as "cat year" (mao nian ??).
I found it here http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?/topic/33283-why-is-there-a-cat-in-the-vietnamese-zodiac/page__st__15
Best wishes,
Lily.
--
Huong-Ly Chu
Research Student
Department of Sociology,
City University,
Northampton Square
London,
EC1V 0HB
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From: will pore
Date: Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 5:26 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
This source's explanation seems like the Wikipedia answer to the question. For one thing, the pronunciations for the zodiac years are given only in Chinese not Vietnamese (i.e. Sino-Vietnamese), which adds to the confusion. There is probably a fuller explanation to this question that someone on the list is going to pour energy into, but I would guess that Vietnamese confusion (?) on this seems to date only from about some time in the early twentieth century when the Vietnamese lost a good familiarity with Chinese writing. Phan Boi Chau (born 1867) was not confused about whether he was born in the year of the cat or hare. He states that he was born in 'dinh mao' (i.e.?, not 'dinh mao' ?). To clarify, he went on to say that this was the year of the rabbit (Vietnamese 'tho'), giving the the Chinese character for rabbit for good measure.
Regards,
Will
--
William F. Pore, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
Department of Global Studies
College of Economics and International Trade
Pusan National University
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From: David Waters
Date: Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 9:08 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To clarify:
In 1962, there were "abundant" hare in Vietnam. In fact, at one unspecified RVN airfield they would often flood the airstrip at night and
have to be cleared off in a creative fashion.
Best
D. D. Waters
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From: Tai, Hue-Tam Ho
Date: Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 9:34 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Indeed. Vietnam not only has rabbits, but also a name for them: tho (with dau hoi).
Hue-Tam Ho Tai
Kenneth T. Young Professor
of Sino-Vietnamese History
_
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From: JKirkpatrick
Date: 2011/1/21
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
If I may, some translate ? as rabbit, some as hare. But a hare is a different animal than a rabbit--they are related but separate species. See here for a comparison:
http://www.diffen.com/difference/Hare_vs_Rabbit
Does anyone know which of these two animals the Chinese astrologers actually meant when they used that character?
Thanks,
Joanna K.
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From: Charles Waugh
Date: Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 9:51 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Rabbit's also on the menu at Highway 4 in Hanoi (or has been), though I suppose there's no way of knowing for sure that's what gets served.
Charles
Charles Waugh
Utah State University
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From: JKirkpatrick
Date: Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 10:43 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Do they distinguish linguistically between rabbit and hare?
Joanna K.
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From: Ngô Thanh Nhàn
Date: 2011/1/21
To: vsg@u.washington.edu
Dear Joanna,
There is th? (tho with hook above) "rabbit" and
th? d? "hare" (th? d? means "one easy to be
scared").
I wonder where the 12 earth branches came from...
each of the branches is not graphicly paired
with Chinese, such as
rat (? vs ?),
ox (? vs ?) (buffalo?),
tiger (? vs ?),
rabbit (? vs ?),
dragon (? vs ?),
snake (? vs ?),
horse (? vs ?),
goat/sheep (? vs ?),
monkey (? vs ?),
chicken/rooster (? vs ?),
dog (? vs ? or ?), and
pig (? vs ? or ?)
-- it looks like each of the branches is "translated"
into Chinese? And the Chinese forms on the right
hand side seem not to be recent... which may have
co-existed with the branch names for a long time.
-- I don't remember who said the 12 branches
might have an Austro-asiatic origin... but I have
not seen a proof.
Best,
Nhan
__
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From: JKirkpatrick
Date: Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 1:24 PM
To: nhan@temple.edu, Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear Nhan
Thanks much---
Joanna
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From: David Waters
Date: Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 10:48 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear All,
Upon looking at my collection of Vietnamese proverb literature, specifically Nguyen Dang Liem's Four Syllable Idiomatic Expressions in Vietnamese (1969: 36), I found the following: 'The hare (figurative: the moon) disappears, the sun sets' ('Th? l?n ác tà'), which expresses the passing of time, and is a reference to the folktale about the white hare "Con Tho" who lives on the moon and can be seen pounding rice in a mortar with a pestle (see pictures below). According to Opusculum de sectis apud Sinenses et Tunkinenses (2002: 199, 200), this folktale about Con Tho is recorded in the book Tâm Ðang (Lamp of the Heart), which dates to the seventeenth or early eighteenth centuries.
That all said, despite the hare's cultural significance, for some reason the Vietnamese replaced the Zodiac rabbit with the cat. That they chose the cat instead of the easily adaptable hare leads me to believe that the Vietnamese may have indeed mistranslated "Mao Tu" (Mao Rabbit Year) as "Mao Nian" (Cat Year), but I am wandering way above my area of expertise.
Best :)
D. D. Waters
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From: Ngô Thanh Nhàn
Date: 2011/1/21
To: JKirkpatrick <jkirk@spro.net>
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear Joanna,
1.
The sound th? in Vietnamese is represented
by three Nôm ideograms:
-- ? and ? are also pronounced th?,
phonetic and graphic borrowings from the
T'ang Dynasty.
-- ?? a Nôm proper is pronounced th?
(I wonder if this ideogram exists in Chinese).
The sounds of th? and th? are so closed
that I suspect th? came from th? or an older
sound borrowing of th?.
2.
On the other hand, we do have "??" ng?c th?
and ng?c th? (same ideograms), but I have not
seen *?? ng?c mão used to mean the same
(I have seen the name ??? ng?c mão th?,
a redundant?). I believe they ? and ? are
not the same.
If so, one may not make any cross assumption from
the sound of th? ? to the sound of mão ?.
3.
From the surface phonetic, we may say in Vietnamese
-- tí and tí "small"
-- s?u and trâu are close
-- mão and mèo are close
-- ng? and ng?a are close
-- h?i and heo are close
Of course, we cannot make any assumption from
the today's phonetics, but it requires more from
the theory that "mèo" "miêu" is a misreading
of "mão". For you have proven that the Vietnamese
can tell the difference between mão and mèo easily.
Best,
Nhan
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From: Nghia Vo
Date: Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 3:26 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear All,
We cannot simply suggest that the rabbit has been replaced by a cat in the Vietnamese zodiac because of an error of translation because:
1. if the zodiac calendar has been traced back to the Han according to wikipedia, the Chinese must have brought it to Vietnam a long time ago. Therefore, there should be no error in translation.
2. if the error in translation has been recent (?20th century), why would the Vietnamese not object to that error? There would have been some documentation somewhere about that change. People were used to seeing someone born under the Hare sign, then (in ?) it was determined that person was born under the Cat sign? Was it why Phan Boi Chau had argued, as one VSG has suggested, that he was born under the Hare sign and nothing else?
3. changing a Hare to a Cat entails a major endeavor b/c it means changing all the books that go with the lunar calendar, changing the interpretations, giving another meaning to the Cat, etc...
4. In the Vietnamese zodiac, not only was:
Hare changed into Cat,
but Ox was changed to Water Buffalo,
and Sheep into Goat.
5. In the Japanese zodiac, the Pig was changed into a Wild Boar
in the Thai Zodiac, the Dragon into a Naja.
Therefore, I would submit that this change in the zodiac sign was not due to a simple error in translation, but to something else: cultural adjustment?.....
Thanks,
Nghia
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From: JKirkpatrick
Date: Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 3:44 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Just for fun, here's the Tibetan zodiac animal lineup:
Hare Dragon Snake Horse Sheep Ape Bird Dog Pig Mouse Bull Tiger
Their elements lineups are the same as the Chinese:
Fire Earth Iron Water Wood
[source--wikipedia]
Joanna K.
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From: David Waters
Date: Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 4:13 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
The mystery continues
D. D. Waters
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From: JKirkpatrick
Date: Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 4:34 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
I'm betting that if someone researched VN astrology magazines, or other similar printed material, from a date--or some other date--that they think is when the change to cat happened, they could find some answers. The impact of printed words on a popular (often viewed as crucial) topic or bit of culture, can sometimes be mightier than the, er, king or sword.
Joanna K.
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From: NGUYEN THE ANH
Date: Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 6:57 PM
To: nhan@temple.edu, Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Attached is an article in which the author discusses lengthily the etymology of "mao" in the Vietnamese calendar.
Nguyên Thê Anh
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From: David Waters
Date: Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 8:58 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear All,
I found the following interesting:
According to the Chinese folktale “The Twelve Animals of the Zodiac” (Faurot: 27-30), the idea to have twelve animals represent the months and years was suggested to the people by the Jade Emperor to help them better keep track of time. To choose these twelve animals the Jade Emperor held a contest among all the world’s animals to see who could cross a mighty river the fastest. The first twelve to cross the river and reach the finish line would become the animals of the zodiac. As the story goes, the Cat did not finish in the top twelve because the Rat pushed him/her into the river as they rode on the back of the Ox. Another version tells that the Cat did not even participate in the race because it was napping and could not be bothered to make the journey (Woolfolk: 374).
I looked on Google Books and in my collection of folktale books for a Vietnamese version of “The Twelve Animals” but did not find anything [sigh]. When I did a Google search on the subject I found the following explanation for how the Cat managed to finish in the top twelve: The Cat was a fast swimmer. When pushed off of the Water Buffalo’s back and into the river by the Rat the Cat quickly swam to the bank without losing much ground and finished in fourth place.
source: http://lunarnewyearhouston.com/the-rabbit-and-the-cat/
Best
D. D. Waters
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From: Balazs Szalontai
Date: Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 9:19 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
They must have confused the cat with the tiger.:) Tigers swim well and love to have a bath, but cats don't.
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From: will pore
Date: Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 12:44 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Regarding Nghia Vo's post with reference to hare vs. cat years:
You have raised some good questions on this issue. I am an American who has translated parts of several of Phan Boi Chau's works from Chinese. What he wrote about his year of birth was apropos the the discussion on the topic of the Vietnamese zodiac animals particular to Vietnam. I am not that well informed about Vietnamese popular culture, which is really where this discussion lies. You, better than I, should be able to inquire about you and let us know why there is this apparently local Vietnamese disparity.
Will Pore
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From: Nghia Vo
Date: Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 3:00 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear All, especially David,
The following link sent by Nguyen The Anh last Friday seems to clarify a lot of issues:
http://www.vannghesongcuulong.org/vietnamese/tulieu_tacpham.asp?TPID=14752&LOAIID=16&LOAIREF=5&TGID=2198Ngày dang: 10.1.2011
According to the author, Nguyen Cung Thong, we could write the following timeline about the story the Chinese/Vietnamese zodiac or Cat v rabbit story:
? 2nd century AC: the Chinese invented the zodiac with 12 animals. The hare stands at the fourth place.
?Why would the Chinese choose the Hare instead of the cat if Mao at that time meant hare as well as cat? (question asked by Nguyen Cung Thong)
? (before 15th BC): the Chinese introduced the zodiac calendar to the Vietnamese who have always used Mao to designate Cat.
The Viets adopted the Cat instead of the rabbit in their calendar (therefore, this was not an error in translation). This also means the Chinese had to rewrite a new calendar for the Viets.
Corollaries:
1. There was no error in translation,
2. The change from hare to cat has been made prior to the zodiac introduction into Vietnam.
3. The question that needs to be addressed is why the Chinese had translated Mao into Hare instead of Cat?
4. The Tibetans, Japanese, Koreans have adopted the hare like the Chinese. This makes the Viets very special: they have at times differed with the Chinese and maintained their own individuality.
Best,
Nghia
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From: dfp
Date: Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 1:07 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
add to 4.) The Chinese "rooster" was also changed into "chicken" in Vietnamese.
David
--------
From: Dien Nguyen
Subject: Fwd: [Vsg] cat v rabbit
To: "Tom Nguyen" <nguyencungthong@yahoo.com>
Received: Saturday, 22 January, 2011, 12:02 AM
Xin h?i anh Thông t?i sao nam Mão là mèo ? VN mà l?i là th? ? bên Tàu .
C?m on anh nhi?u.
Ði?n
From: Dien Nguyen <
Date: Sun, Jan 23, 2011 at 1:23 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Tom Nguyen
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2011 00:00:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Fwd: [Vsg] cat v rabbit - Ma~o
To: Dien Nguyen <nguyendien519@gmail.com>, ly.huong.chu@gmail.com
Cc: abcv552@city.ac.uk, vsg@u.washington.edu,
John.Ruwitch@thomsonreuters.com, nguyencungthong@yahoo.com
Hi anh Dien and friends,
Basic reasons for "Why cat not rabbit"
1. Me`o (cat in Vietnamese) is the old pronunciation of Ma~o ?
(Sino-Viet sound import or Chinese > Vietnamese); There are a few old
pronunciations still preserved in current Vietnamese language. The
Tang ? and Song ? 's brilliant culture have influenced surrounding
cultures (such as Vietnamese, when Ma~o ? and a lot of other Sino-Viet
sounds were imported into Vietnamese language and coexisted with older
forms) (A). This direction of loan (Viet > Chinese) can be seen even
in this Chinese Dictionary on line:
[tool.httpcn.com]
[ ??? ]:????,meu - compare this form to me`o (cat in Vietnamese)
[ ? ? ]:???,?31?,mao - of Ma~o ,??????
[ ??? ]:?????
[ ? ? ]:mao
[ ? ? ]:maau5
[ ??? ]:bau2
Also compare the e-a correspondence in hè h? (summer), chè trà (tea),
v? ho? (draw), khoe khoa (brag), beo báo (panther), chén tr?n (small
cup), chém tr?m (cut by knife), mèo Mão (the forth zodiac sign),etc.
2. Thai and Laotian people call cat ??? maew or maau - but the animal
for Ma~o ? is rabbit, not cat! This negates the explanation that
Vietnamese changes rabbit to cat due to similar pronunciation of Ma~o
and me`o
3.Mixup between rabbit and cat in Chinese culture/writing:
3.1 Th? tôn ?? - both a wild rabbit and a wild cat
3.2 Th? ? is rabbit, compare with Ma~n/Mie^~n ? is a cat (obsolete
term, a cat in Vietnamese)
3.3 Cats prosper in temperate climate: their body temperature is from
38oC to 39oC in comparison to human’s body temperature of 37.5oC and
they can survive up to a surrounding temperature of 52 oC; While
domesticated rabbits cannot survive temperatures higher than 32oC.
Cats are associated with agricultural society whereas rabbits are good
food supply (high protein) for hunter society. Cats but not rabbits
are found in many Vietnamese common sayings and proverbs, and are
elevated to a very intimate role to human such as:
“Cô ta là mèo tôi” (She is my cat – she is my lover)
“Chuy?n mèo chu?t” (cat-and-mouse story – love story), etc.
There are more explanations which can be read in this page [www.viethoc.org]
If you have any more queries, do not hesitate to contact the writer
via nguyencungthong@yahoo.com for more information
Best regards
Nguyen Cung Thong ('Tom' Nguyen)
(A) this reverse influence/back loan (Viet to Han/me`o than back to
Viet/Ma~o) has been pointed out by Paul K. Benedict (1975) in
'Austro-Thai, Language and Culture' in the Zodiac System, but he
didnot mention Ma~o.
From: <abcv552@city.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, Jan 21, 2011 at 11:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Vsg] cat v rabbit
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Hi,
The following is an interesting explanation:
The most plausible theory proposed was that when the 12 Animal Zodiac
was introduced into Vietnam from China, the "Mao ?" in the Zodiac year
"Mao Tu ??" (Mao Rabbit Year) has the same Chinese pronunciation as
"Mao ?" (cat). Because the "Mao Nian ??" (Mao Year) sounds the same as
"Mao Nian ??" (cat year), the Vietnamese had made a mistake in the
writing and recorded it as "cat year" (mao nian ??).
I found it here
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/index.php?/topic/33283-why-is-there-a-cat-in-the-vietnamese-zodiac/page__st__15
Best wishes,
Lily.
From: Ngo, T.
Date: Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 1:28 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear all,
In Korean, the same character for Mão ? is used to call this year. Although it sounds more like Mieu, which is also the sound for the word "cat" in Korean, this year ??? (Shin myo nyun, in Korean pronunciation) is rabit year and the middle character "myo" does not mean cat but rabbit in Korea.
Fascinating discussion, by the way. I learned alot about my own language. Thanks
Tam Ngo
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From: will pore
Date: Mon, Jan 24, 2011 at 3:21 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Yes. Chinese , Koreans, Japanese and (sometimes) Vietnamese know the difference between the characters for cat and rabbit. In Korean it is pronounced 'myo,' but all countries which use Chinese characters also know the other character for rabbit (C: 'tu'; V: 'tho'). It's the same difference as that between mutton and sheep or serviette and napkin.
Will
--
William F. Pore, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
Department of Global Studies
College of Economics and International Trade
Pusan National University