Cochin China
Cochin China
From thdn.thachnh@mofa.gov.vn Mon Nov 26 17:17:17 2001
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 13:07:36 -0700
From: Nguyen Hong Thach <thdn.thachnh@mofa.gov.vn>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: cochin china
Dear list,
Could anyone explain for me why Nam Bo was called Cochin China.
Thank you,
Thach Hong Nguyen.
From u9508817@anu.edu.au Mon Nov 26 17:17:43 2001
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 09:41:43 +1000
From: Jacob Ramsay <u9508817@anu.edu.au>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: cochin china
Are there any takers on "Cochin China"?
May I have a go?
There are a couple of twisted explanations for the use of "Cochin" among sixteenth and seventeenth century missionaries. I'll offer two of these. Firstly, Marini, a Jesuit contemporary of Rhodes, claimed in his book
"Relation du Tonkin" that the capital of the Kingdom of Annam was "Chece".
To Marini "Checi" came to western usage through Japanese traders who related the word to Portuguese missionaries as "Coci" or "Cocin". To distinguish this city from Cochin on the west coast of India "China" was added.
I think Rhodes offered a somewhat different etymology. "Cochin", Rhodes claimed, was a mongrelisation of the Chinese classical name for the Viet Kingdom, Giao-chi. Rhodes uses "Kiao-Tchi" to give Cao Chi which is a step away from Cochin.
Has anyone any idea where Marini may have taken "Chece" (or "Checio") as the capital of the Kingdom of Annam?
Jacob Ramsay
From thayerc@apcss.org Mon Nov 26 17:18:01 2001
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 07:18:16 -1000
From: "Thayer, Carl, Dr." <thayerc@apcss.org>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: cochin china
I read Cochin China was used to distinguish it from Cochin in India, then under the French.
But I am only a political scientist not historian!
Carl
Carlyle A. Thayer
Professor of Politics, University College
The University of New South Wales
Australian Defence Force Academy
valid after 18 January 2002:
c.thayer@adfa.edu.au
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Currently on leave and valid until 18 Jan 2002:
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From thdn.thachnh@mofa.gov.vn Mon Nov 26 17:19:49 2001
Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 07:59:13 +0700
From: Nguyen Hong Thach <thdn.thachnh@mofa.gov.vn>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Cochin China
Thank you Jacob for your reply to my inquiry.
The two following msg may be useful to some in our list.
----
Dear Thach:
Since I cannot reply directly to the VSG for some reason, I want to write to you directly on your request. Cochin is a corruption of Cuu Chan, which was a name given to the southern part of VN by the Chinese. Japanese pronunciation is close enough to Cochin and that was where the Portuguese Jesuits picked it up. It is not a corruption of Giao Chi as Alexander de Rhodes surmised.
Best,
-----
By the way, as far as Cochin China is concerned, when the Westerners arrived in Vietnam they found many Indians from Cochin (which is a province on the western coast of India where people were seafarers and specialized in foreign trade) and so the China part was added to differentiate the territory (Nam Ky, a much later term given by the Nguyen)from the Indian Cochin.
Warmest,
From hhtai@fas.harvard.edu Mon Nov 26 17:19:55 2001
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:52:45 -0500
From: Hue Tam H. Tai <hhtai@fas.harvard.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Cochin China
Actually, we need to distinguish Cochinchina, as it was used in the 17t and
18th centuries and French Cochinchina (i.e. the old Six Provinces of the Mekong Delta). Cochinchina covered the area under Nguyen rule, and thus included the Han commandery of Cuu Chan, but also Nhat Nam--which was incorporated into Champa at various times, starting in 136 AD. It's what Vietnamese used to call Dang Trong. Tonkin, or Dang Ngoai, which was under Trinh rule, covered the old commandery of Giao Chi. When the French began writing about the Mekong Delta area (i.e. Nam Ky), they called it Lower Cochinchina (Basse Cochinchine) to distinguish it from Cochinchina/Dang Trong. Aubaret' s translation of Trinh Hoai Duc's Gia Dinh Thanh Thong Chi uses the term "Basse Cochinchine" for Gia Dinh.
Hue-Tam Ho Tai
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:26:16 -0800
From: Charles Keyes <keyes@u.washington.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: cochin china
I have followed the discussion about "Cochin China" with some interest and am surprised that no one yet has made reference to Hobson-Jobson: A Glossary of Anglo-Indian Colloquial Words and Phrases by Henry Yule and A.C. Burnell (5th ed., 1886, reprinted in London: Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1968). The entry in H-J reads:
"COCHIN-CHINA: This country was called by the Malays Kuchi, and apparently also, to distinguish it from Kuchi of India (or Cochin), Kuchi-China, a term which the Portuguese adopted as Cauchi-China; the Dutch and English from them. Kuchi occurs in this sense in the Malay traditions called Sijara Malayu ... In its origin this word Kuchi is no doubt a foreigner's form of the Annamite Kuu-chön (Chin, Kiu-Ching, South Chin., Kau-Chen), which was the ancient name of the province Thanh'-hoa, in which the city of Hue has been the capital since 1398."
There then follows a column and a half of quotations from old sources, beginning with one in 1524, in which the name was used.
Biff (Charles Keyes)