The Term "quoc gia" in SRV
From: Tuan Hoang
Date: Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 7:59 AM
Dear list,
I have a question about post-unification official usage of quốc gia [nation, national]. It didn't seem to be a popular term during the first ten years of the SRV. Or under the DRV, with exceptions such as Trường Đại Học Quốc Gia Việt Nam that was started shortly after the August Revolution.
This has changed, however, since the early 1990s. In 1992, for instance, four publishing houses, none of which had carried Quốc Gia in its name, were combined to create Nhà Xuất Bản Chính Trị Quốc Gia. The next year, Học viện Khoa học Xã hội Nguyễn Ái Quốc changed to Học viện Chính trị Quốc gia Hồ Chí Minh. It is far more common to see the term in official and public usage now.
What might have accounted for the paucity of usage before 1990? What might have accounted for the change? Are there other instances from before 1990 that you know?
Thanks ahead,
~Tuan Hoang
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From: Sidel, Mark
Date: Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 8:49 AM
An interesting question, particularly for those of us who began work in Vietnam during the 1990s and have seen the quoc gia term used with increasing frequency, particularly in transitions in the early 1990s. On the transition of the Nha xuat ban Su that to NXB Chinh tri Quoc gia and the NAQ Academy to including the "quoc gia" term, I was told that was in part an attempt to put these Party institutions on a more clear state footing as well, including expansion of mission, budgetary processes, professional reporting mechanisms and approval of programs, degrees and the like (ie partial reporting to state ministries), international exchanges, and the like. In addition, I was told that it was a way to help justify further internal growth as well as growth by merger, as in the case of NXB Chinh tri Quoc gia that Tuan Hoang mentions below, and, of course the Truong Dai hoc quoc gia(s). I've always been interested in how a few relatively public -- but most certainly not all -- traditional Party institutions were told (and wanted) to be state institutions too in the new environment of the 1990s.
How about Trường Đại học Kinh tế Quốc dân (translated officially as National Economics University)? I've always assumed that the fact that NEU is rare among national universities for not adopting (more accurately: not seeking the permission of MOET to adopt) the "quoc gia" terminology reflects that here, in Vietnamese, "quoc dan" is a modifier of "kinh te" (kinh te quoc dan, making the quoc gia term inappropriate in the new era), while the English translation ("national") is more a descriptor for the national character of the university in the English translation? Or is there some other reason -- beyond the continued importance of the term "kinh te quoc dan" and the difficulties with switching to "kinh te quoc gia" -- that NEU never sought to "quoc gia" itself as so many other universities and institutions did?
Please note that this is, happily at least for me, a completely separate thread from the Kissinger and Morris discussion....
Mark Sidel
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From: Tai, Hue-Tam Ho
Date: Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 9:08 AM
Interesting question. I remember that the term "quoc gia" was used quite frequently in pre-75 South Vietnam.
Could it be, as Mark seems to suggest, that in an increasingly market driven society (as was pre-75 South Vietnam), "national" stands for "state" or "official"? So Dai Hoc Quoc Gia stands in contrast to Dai Hoc Dan Lap or some other permutation of the moniker indicating private status?
Hue-Tam Ho Tai
Kenneth T. Young Professor
of Sino-Vietnamese History
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From: Tuan Hoang
Date: Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 9:31 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Hue-Tam: I thought the same about South Vietnam before 1975. The term is part of the name State of Vietnam (Quốc Gia Việt Nam) after all, and appeared frequently in RVN's documents as well as South Vietnamese non-government publications.
Mark Sidel: Most interesting reference to quốc dân, which incidentally appeared in the lyrics of the RVN's national anthem (vì tương lai quốc dân, cùng xông pha khói tên...) I thought it is a rather old term, common during late colonialism (and maybe early indepedent period) but fell out of usage over time. In fact, I am surprised to hear its usage in the example you give.
~Tuan Hoang
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From: Chung Nguyen
Date: Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 10:17 AM
This is a great example of how the meaning of certain term changes with time, i.e. losing its former connotations, taking on new ones or, in this case, reverting to the old, but now neutral, sense.
I think the term "quoc gia" was avoided earlier because RSVN had commandeered it as a term descriptive of itself, as in "quoc gia" (nationalist) as opposed to "cong san" (communist). Or "An com quoc gia, tho ma cong san" (Eat "quoc gia" 's rice while worshipping "cong san" 's ghost. This use was de rigueur in the South before 1975.
With time, that old connotation fades; the term "quoc gia" regains its old, neutral sense. As for the case of "Dai Hoc Kinh Te Quoc Dan," instead of "Quoc Gia," I think "Quoc Dan" means the "people," the "mass" of the nation. A socialist aspiration is to apply economics to serve the majority of the population, i.e. "the people, the mass", and not, well, only a certain priveleged class in it. It's somewhat similar to another term widely used in the North - "Nhan dan."
CN
UMass Boston
________________________________
Sent: Thu 10/7/2010 10:49 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group
An interesting question, particularly for those of us who began work in Vietnam during the 1990s and have seen the quoc gia term used with increasing frequency, particularly in transitions in the early 1990s. On the transition of the Nha xuat ban Su that to NXB Chinh tri Quoc gia and the NAQ Academy to including the "quoc gia" term, I was told that was in part an attempt to put these Party institutions on a more clear state footing as well, including expansion of mission, budgetary processes, professional reporting mechanisms and approval of programs, degrees and the like (ie partial reporting to state ministries), international exchanges, and the like. In addition, I was told that it was a way to help justify further internal growth as well as growth by merger, as in the case of NXB Chinh tri Quoc gia that Tuan Hoang mentions below, and, of course the Truong Dai hoc quoc gia(s). I've always been interested in how a few relatively public -- but most certainly not all -- traditional Party institutions were told (and wanted) to be state institutions too in the new environment of the 1990s.
How about Tru?ng D?i h?c Kinh t? Qu?c dân (translated officially as National Economics University)? I've always assumed that the fact that NEU is rare among national universities for not adopting (more accurately: not seeking the permission of MOET to adopt) the "quoc gia" terminology reflects that here, in Vietnamese, "quoc dan" is a modifier of "kinh te" (kinh te quoc dan, making the quoc gia term inappropriate in the new era), while the English translation ("national") is more a descriptor for the national character of the university in the English translation? Or is there some other reason -- beyond the continued importance of the term "kinh te quoc dan" and the difficulties with switching to "kinh te quoc gia" -- that NEU never sought to "quoc gia" itself as so many other universities and institutions did?
Please note that this is, happily at least for me, a completely separate thread from the Kissinger and Morris discussion....
Mark Sidel
________________________________
Sent: Thursday, October 07, 2010 9:59 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group
Dear list,
I have a question about post-unification official usage of qu?c gia [nation, national]. It didn't seem to be a popular term during the first ten years of the SRV. Or under the DRV, with exceptions such as Tru?ng D?i H?c Qu?c Gia Vi?t Nam that was started shortly after the August Revolution.
This has changed, however, since the early 1990s. In 1992, for instance, four publishing houses, none of which had carried Qu?c Gia in its name, were combined to create Nhà Xu?t B?n Chính Tr? Qu?c Gia. The next year, H?c vi?n Khoa h?c Xã h?i Nguy?n Ái Qu?c changed to H?c vi?n Chính tr? Qu?c gia H? Chí Minh. It is far more common to see the term in official and public usage now.
What might have accounted for the paucity of usage before 1990? What might have accounted for the change? Are there other instances from before 1990 that you know?
Thanks ahead,
~Tuan Hoang
----------
From: Tai, Hue-Tam Ho
Date: Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 10:55 AM
In addition to Chung's exegesis, I also think there was a slightly different significance to the use of "quoc gia" in the South. First was the claim to represent all of the Vietnamese nation ( a claim also advanced by Hanoi, of course); second was the nation-building agenda with the focus on "nation." It is interesting indeed to compare the use of "quoc gia" in the South and "nhan dan" in the North.
Hue-Tam Ho Tai
Kenneth T. Young Professor
of Sino-Vietnamese History
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From: Charles Waugh
Date: Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 1:36 PM
And to bring back Mark Sidel's comments, in that comparison between "quoc gia" in the South, and "nhan dan" in the North, how does "quoc dan" fit in?
Charles Waugh
--
Charles Waugh
Assistant Professor
Dept. of English
Utah State University
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From: Brad Owen
Date: Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 6:39 PM
If it is true that Nhan Dan is used in the north but not so much in the south, then I have learned something new today. I always thought it was used ubiquitously.
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From: Adam @ UoM
Date: Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 6:50 PM
Kinh te Quoc dan in my sense of it nowadays usually refers to the national economy; quoc gia, if used that way, to the economy of the central state – SOEs and suchlike. Thus TDHKT quoc gia would be read as leaving out the non-state economy, in some muddled way, whilst in this vein TDHKT Quoc dan is to be read as the economy of all entities in the country, no matter the property form. Quoc dan Dang … fits this and Quoc gia Dang would then sound funny (Dang cua bo quan chuc) … I once had an argument with a China specialist for whom the Chinese equivalent of Quoc gia seemed to mean (in the context we were tangled over) the central level state economy – with other entities belonging to local authorities NOT being seen as ‘Quoc gia’. This was interesting as the Vietnamese terminology views state owned enterprises (Xi nghiep Quoc doanh, now Doanh nghiep Nha nuoc) as belonging to all levels of the state – Trung uong, dia phuong … being the main difference made. The latter could refer to all three sub-central levels … So the Han-Viet equivalents of Quoc gia is ‘Kinh te nha nuoc trung uong’ … (assuming I do not precipitate an argument about nha nuoc and its Sino-Vietnamese-ness or otherwise footnote footnote footnote). And there is a paper here that would annoy the Chinese by arguing that this means that the Vietnamese polity is more coherent and integrated than the Chinese … J which is obvious anyway.
But these are only words and as Vietnamese civil society activities march inescapably onwards usage is clearly changing. I find it interesting and fun that ‘dan su’ can so readily be used as ‘civil’ in the wider sense of ‘polite’, ‘decent’, and this links to the very old ‘com binh dan’, and there is I think a cool paper to be written that riffs on the point that this links decency not to ‘the town’ (polite, civil), nor to the written (van minh), but to ‘the common folk’ (dan su, binh dan). Or has it been written in which case please let me know as I would love to read it. ‘Dan su’ when used in real time and in real places to mean ‘civil, decent’ is really nice. Dan su lam! The la dan su! It makes sense to talk about dan su as an attribute of inter-personal relations within the apparat, which is nice too. Read Joerg Wischermann’s upcoming paper on this and other stuff.
Adam
Adam Fforde
AF&A p/l http://www.aduki.com.au/ (Chairman)
Asia Institute, University of Melbourne http://www.asiainstitute.unimelb.edu.au/ (Principal Fellow)
Centre for Strategic Economic Studies, Victoria University http://www.cfses.com/ (Professorial Fellow)
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From: Chung Nguyen
Date: Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 9:32 PM
The reason for the RSVN to emphasize the use of "quoc gia" was, I think, as much ideological as the reason the DRVN highlighted the use of the word "Nhan dan." One of the foundations of the anti-communist tenets in the South was the charge that the communists believed in the doctrine of "Tam Vo" [Three No - Vo Gia dinh, Vo To quoc, Vo Ton giao" (No Family, No Nation (or "quoc gia"), No Religion). By commandeering the term "Quoc Gia", and using it as an antonym of "Cong san" (Communist), the RSVN insisted that only its philosophy had the interests of the nation at heart whereas the communists disregarded the national interests in following some sort of anti-nation internationalism (Hint: a tool of China and the Soviet Union).
The DRVN countered by the ubiquitous use of the word "Nhan dan" (People, the mass), signifying that only its practices had the interests of the great majority of the people at heart, not a privileged class serving the interests of foreigners (Hint: French, then Japanese, then American collaborators).
Actually, there is a joke in the North about this: The party attached the term "Nhan dan" after almost everything - the Court (Toa an Nhan dan), the government (Chinh quyen Nhan dan), the Local administration (Hoi dong Nhan dan), the Armed Forces (Quan doi Nhan dan), Public Security (Cong an Nhan dan), etc. except one - Kho bac Nha nuoc (The "State" Treasury).
CN
UMASS Boston
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From: Adam @ Nexon
Date: Thu, Oct 7, 2010 at 10:03 PM
Dear list,
I have a question about post-unification official usage of quốc gia [nation,
Gia Việt Nam that was started shortly after the August Revolution.
four publishing houses, none of which had carried Quốc Gia in its name, were
Khoa học Xã hội Nguyễn Ái Quốc changed to Học viện Chính trị Quốc gia Hồ Chí
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From: Chung Nguyen
Date: Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 6:54 AM
Easy said than done. If you follow the Vietnamese diasporic media, that whole pre-1975 nomenclature on this issue is alive and well !
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From: Thaveeporn Vasavakul
Date: Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 6:59 AM
I have done a bit of research on the DRV (North VN)’s and the RVN (South VN)’s nationalism and I am putting forth interpretations on the use of the term “quoc gia” (QG).
1. Before 1975 and 1990:
- The RVN (South VN) used the term to refer to “nation”, a literal translation. The term is cited in educational materials including textbooks so we can argue that it is for universal acceptance. For the RVN, the term reflects some level of modernity.
- The DRV (North VN), especially after 1954, did not use the term because
(1) it is a Sino-Vietnamese term; the DRV’s language policy was to Vietnamize Sino-Viet terms, if possible (the North said “san bay”: the South said “phi truong” as language students were taught.)
(2)(Socialist) Internationalism did not encourage “nationalism”.
(3) For the DRV, the term “nation” as an entity was “nuoc”. Until now, it is still “Nuoc Cong hoa Xa hoi Chu nghia Viet Nam”. Nationalism in for the DRV/SRV is “chu nghia/tinh than dan toc” or “tinh than yeu nuoc” (patriotism). Actually, nationalism as a modern concept was somewhat underdeveloped in the DRV; patriotism reigned.
2. Usage after 1990:
“Quoc gia” implies a national operational scope, and in this sense, it has administrative connotations. Nha xuat ban Chinh tri quoc gia operates nation-wide as opposed to publishing houses whose operation is restricted (possibly owing to their “owing agency” or chu quan). Dai hoc Quoc gia Ha Noi/TP HCM has a “national” administrative status which differentiates them from Ministry- or Province-affiliated universities. Former Hoc vien Chinh tri Quoc gia HCM or Hoc vien Hanh chinh quoc gia (before the two were merged) were units with a mandate to operate nation-wide as opposed to province-run administrative and political and administration schools (again before they were merged).
3. Dai hoc Kinh te quoc dan:
- Dai hoc quoc gia as an entity, by definition, consists of a wide range of colleges, each of which consists of a wide range of disciplines. In this sense, Dai hoc Kinh te quoc dan cannot become a dai hoc quoc gia because it only has one discipline, that is, economics. The majority of universities in VN are still single-disciplined. Dai hoc quoc gia is a self-management unit. Other universities still need a chu quan (MOET, other Ministries, or provinces).
- For Dai hoc Kinh te quoc dan, “quoc dan” is an adjective modifying “kinh te” (similar to, say, kinh te xa hoi chu nghia, kinh te gia dinh….). It does not modify “dai hoc” or “university”. The translation “national economy” is somewhat misleading but as it is for foreign consumption (?)so who cares; People’s Economy,Citizen's Economy, or Public Economy, while sounding incorrect in English, might be more accurate. As somebody who hears and uses Vietnamese often, the term “Kinh te quoc gia” does not have any apparent meaning for me, but a native speaker should be in the best position to give feedback. It might make sense though it you begins to contrast "kinh te quoc te" and "kinh te quoc gia" from "kinh te vung" or "kinh te dia phuong".
(4) In the past, there are times when the term "Viet Nam" just means national -- Vien Khoa hoc Xa hoi Viet Nam, for example. The Institute operates nation-wide.
Just some thoughts. Comments from Vietnamese will be helpful. When it comes to names and words, we will be surprised how precise they are.
Thaveeporn Vasavakul
Hue-Tam: I thought the same about South Vietnam before 1975. The term is
part of the name State of Vietnam *(Qu?c Gia Vi?t Nam*) after all, and
appeared frequently in RVN's documents as well as South Vietnamese
non-government publications.
Mark Sidel: Most interesting reference to *qu?c dân*, which incidentally
appeared in the lyrics of the RVN's national anthem (*vì tuong lai qu?c dân,
cùng xông pha khói tên*...) I thought it is a rather old term, common
during late colonialism (and maybe early indepedent period) but fell out of
usage over time. In fact, I am surprised to hear its usage in the example
you give.
~Tuan Hoang
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From: Shawn McHale
Date: Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 8:15 AM
To add to all these reflections:
>From the 1920s to the 1950s, quoc gia was used in the north, center, and south. I'm not a Sinologist, but it seems to me that the translation of "nation" does not capture its earlier meaning of "state." From the 1920s onwards, the term meant "nation" or, as in chu nghia quoc gia, "nationalism." But it was a particular understanding of nation and nationalism, that of an educated elite.
>From the 1950s, south and north diverged in their usages of the term, as others have noted. "Nationalism" (chu nghia quoc gia) retained its elite, top down meaning in much of the south -- but clearly, this term was unsuitable for the communist understanding of a mass-oriented popular ethnonationalism sentiment (chu nghia dan toc).
Shawn
Shawn McHale
Director
Sigur Center for Asian Studies
Associate Professor of History and International Affairs
George Washington University
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From: Frank
Date: Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 8:45 AM
The Smithsonian Institution is the National Museum of the United States, and has among its various museums the National Museum of Natural History, the National Air and Space Museum, the National Museum of American History, etc. It is not, however, a governmental institution. Thus, national in scope (as # 2 below) but not an organ of the State.
However, the Smithsonian is also custodian of the National Collections, which are the property of the United States (such as gifts from foreign emperors to Thomas Jefferson or George Washington). In this sense 'National' refers to State.
Internal contradiction is not, it seems, limited to Viet Nam (or Vietnam, as the case may be: the Vietnam Museum of Ethnology has the gapless form as its official name, enshrined in its establishing documents as well as graven on its walls, which is madmaking for those of us working in a United Nations agency where the rule is to divide Viet from Nam. Proofreaders like consistency, foolish or not.).
Best,
Frank Proschan
Paris
FRANCE
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From: Adam @ Nexon
Date: Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 2:52 PM
Good
From: vsg-bounces@mailman2.u.washington.edu [mailto:vsg-bounces@mailman2.u.washington.edu] On Behalf Of Chung Nguyen
Sent: Saturday, 9 October 2010 12:55 AM
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From: Tuan Hoang
Date: Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 5:13 PM
Very illuminating, this thread.
* Truong Dai Hoc Kinh Te Quoc Dan: Like Mark Sidel, Thaveeporn Vasavakul's post below indicates that the term Quốc dân serves as modifier to Kinh tế. It seems to be restricted usage, isn't it? Not in the same way as it was used in, say, VNQDD.
* Quoc gia: I can confirm Thaveeporn's point that the term was ubiquitous in South Vietnamese textbooks. (I use SVN instead of RVN since the State of Vietnam was very active in shaping up textbooks.)
On SRV's usage, I found an instance of Quốc gia before 1990, a decision in late 1981 about establisment of national archives:
http://luat.xalo.vn/phap-luat/Quyet-dinh/124886572/Quyet-dinh-Ve-viec-thanh-lap-phong-luu-tru-Quoc-gia-cua-nuoc-Cong-hoa-xa-hoi-chu-nghia-Viet-Nam.html
* This is a smaller point, but Chung Nguyen mentioned in passing the RVN's Three Nos - "Vo gia dinh, vo to quoc, vo ton giao" - and translated it as "No family, no nation, no religion." I think it is more accurate to translate the middle as "no fatherland" (literally "no ancestral land) than "no nation." "Vo to quoc" was meant in this case to emphasize the utter rootlessness of the communist enemy, which was more devastating than not belonging to a nation.
* Finally, this thread has made me think also of Công dân [citizen]. It was a popular term in SVN for sure. But was it used in the North during 1954-1975, or totally supplanted by Nhân dân?
~Tuan Hoang
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From: Thaveeporn Vasavakul
Date: Fri, Oct 8, 2010 at 5:26 PM
For me, quoc dan in vietnam quoc dan dang and dai hoc kinh te quoc dan are the same. quoc dan = people, citizens (hoi, quoc dan , dong bao -- a phrase in one of those poems by phan boi chau?) the problem is the english translation.
Luu tru quoc gia falls under the same category as chinh tri quoc gia, hoc vien hanh chinh quoc gia (before restructuring), that is, it is a unit operating nation-wide. ( i am not talking about the kind of state/non-state materials it collects-- as frank has helped pointed out). luu tru I is in hanoi; luu tru II is in HCM City. i think there is another one in da lat ?i think the name has been changed from luu tru nha nuoc but i may be mistaken.
i will stop here. for the rest, go do your homework :)
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From: Tuan Hoang
Date: Sat, Oct 9, 2010 at 6:24 AM
For a little exercise, I did a word count of the DRV's 1946 and 1959 Constitutions as well as the SRV's 1980.
In the 1946 Constitution (which is rather short in comparison to subsequent ones), "cong dan" appears 13 times & "nhan dan" 32 - or 2.46 more often.
In 1959, "cong dan" appears 32 times & "nhan dan" 140 - or 3.475 more often.
In 1980, "cong dan" 50 times & "nhan dan" 242 - 4.84 times more often.
I haven't looked at 1992, but so far the ratio of "nhan dan" over "cong dan" grew as time passed.
~Tuan Hoang
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From: David Marr
Date: Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 6:43 PM
Once again, Vietnam studies cries out for an etymological dictionary project.
All the terms discussed in this exchange were in active use during the late 1940s, with preferences and meanings changing almost month to month. Another example, from the military. The small group that came out of the northern hills in late August 1945 was the `Giai Phong Quan'. This was changed to `Ve Quoc Doan' soon after. In May 1946, Ho Chi Minh decreed establishment of the `Quan Doi Quoc Gia Viet Nam', although for several years almost everyone continued to use Ve Quoc Doan or Ve Quoc Quan. I haven't rechecked, but recall the current name of `Quan Doi Nhan Dan Viet Nam' coming in 1951? Meanwhile, ordinary people used the term `Viet Minh'.
No one has mentioned `Dan Quoc'. The Official Gazette begun in 1945 was (still is?) the `Viet Nam Dan Quoc Cong Bao'. Has anyone seen Dan Quoc used elsewhere in recent decades?
David Marr
Tuan Hoang wrote:
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From: Adam @ Nexon
Date: Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 12:34 AM
A long-term interest of mine is the history, since around 1990, of the
translation of the standard aid vocabularies into Vietnamese. If anybody
wants me to supervise their PhD on this, get in touch. I have lived through
this, but that is not the same.
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From: Tuan Hoang
Date: Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 2:46 PM
I believe that Viet Nam Dan Quoc Cong Bao was replaced by Cong Bao Nuoc Viet Nam Dan Chu Cong Hoa in 1950.
"Dan Quoc", I think, largely fell out of usage after the 1950s, at least in SVN. The only common usage was in Trung Hoa Dan Quoc to refer to the ROC in Taiwan - although the ROK was sometimes referred to as Dai Han Dan Quoc.
~Tuan Hoang
------------------------
From: Thaveeporn Vasavakul
Date: Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 2:03 AM
the late 1930s and the 1940s was a period when the "revolutionaries" and the "non-revolutionaries" tried to identify themselves and the nation-state they wanted to create. i would emphasize, still, that the 1945-1949 period had its own charming and unique character, deserving all the attention it can get. i have not noticed "dan quoc" anywhere but my reading is only limited to contemporary official documents/social sciences articles. i have the impression that "quoc" as an isolated word was officially replaced by "nuoc" at one point (may be with the exception of "phu quoc"?) ho chi minh used "ai quoc" (love+ country until he died, but the general usage in DRV/SRV publications has been "yeu nuoc".
native speakers should know better.
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From: vsg-bounces@mailman2.u.washington.edu on behalf of David Marr
Sent: Tue 10/12/2010 8:43 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group
Subject: Re: [Vsg] The term "qu?c gia" in SRV
Once again, Vietnam studies cries out for an etymological dictionary
project.
All the terms discussed in this exchange were in active use during the
late 1940s, with preferences and meanings changing almost month to
month. Another example, from the military. The small group that came
out of the northern hills in late August 1945 was the `Giai Phong
Quan'. This was changed to `Ve Quoc Doan' soon after. In May 1946, Ho
Chi Minh decreed establishment of the `Quan Doi Quoc Gia Viet Nam',
although for several years almost everyone continued to use Ve Quoc Doan
or Ve Quoc Quan. I haven't rechecked, but recall the current name of
`Quan Doi Nhan Dan Viet Nam' coming in 1951? Meanwhile, ordinary people
used the term `Viet Minh'.
No one has mentioned `Dan Quoc'. The Official Gazette begun in 1945 was
(still is?) the `Viet Nam Dan Quoc Cong Bao'. Has anyone seen Dan Quoc
used elsewhere in recent decades?
David Marr
----------
From: Chung Nguyen
Date: Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 8:42 AM
Although the "revolutionaries" had a clear policy of favoring vernacular Vietnamese over Sino-Vietnamese words (Chu Han), it still used Sino-Vietnamese words when it's appropriate since there is no way all Sino-Vietnamese words could be replaced.
As for "quoc" it's rarely, if ever, used as a word by itself, but always in some sort of compound variety, e.g. "quoc gia", "quoc the^?", "quoc tu'y", "-de^' quoc", "vong quoc", "chie^'n quoc," where "nuoc" can hardly replace. It was Ho Chi Minh who advised Vo Nguyen Giap to write in such a way that everybody - educated or not, could understand. But that's for public consumption only, not necessary for other forms of writing.
CN
Umass Boston
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From: Tai, Hue-Tam Ho
Date: Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 8:57 AM
Ho Chi Minh was said to be so insistent on using Vietnamese instead of Sino-Vietnamese that he would use such terms as "can bo gai" instead of "nu can bo." Of course, can bo is itself a Sino-Vietnamese term. One problem was that whereas "nu" refers to women of all ages, "gai" is ordinarily used for young women only, and in some contexts, may carry pejorative overtones.Without Ho Chi Minh to urge, such locutions fell out of use.
When we read texts from the 1920s, it is striking how much the language has changed; it is less formal and less full of Chinese-sounding terms, than in the writings of northern authors of the.After 1975, many northerners consider that southerners were using a style which they considered outmoded. I have not made a study of whether speech patterns have become more similar over the last 30+ years.
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From: Chung Nguyen
Date: Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 7:46 PM
In pre-revolutionary days, there were rarely any mixtures between "Sino-Chinese" compound words and vernacular Vietnamese (or Sino-Vietnamese words that had been completely 'vernacularized'). Hence "bac gai" and "bac trai" are normal construction, as both are vernacular terms. This was also true in RVN.
What Ho Chi Minh did was going against this rule, "can bo gai" (I think he actually coined the term "chien si gai" although the idea is the same) used to be a no-no because "can bo" is Sino-Vietnamese while "gai" is vernacular. The traditional term is "Nu+~ can bo" as "nu+~" is a Sino-Chinese" word, as in "Nu nhi," "nu sinh", "nu ti'nh", "nu quyen", "nu bac si", "nu hoc gia", "thieu nu", etc. "Nu can bo is a 3-word compound, using 3 Sino-Chinese words. This neologism by HCM, for whatever reasons, is only used today when referring to that period, not for present events. For example, it's called "Ban Lien Lac Nu Chien Si Lai Xe Truong Son" (The Liason Committee for Woman Drivers on Truong Son", but the name of the book of recollection on their lives is titled "Chien su gai lai xe Truong Son."
Things have a way of coming back to 'normal.'
CN
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From: Adam @ UoM
Date: Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 9:29 PM
The perhaps trite remark is that it sounds odd because it did not catch on.
I find the American pronunciation of route to rhyme with rout extremely odd,
but that reflects my standards and origins. Had it caught on you would
perhaps not find it strange?
Vietnamese capacity to borrow continues to fascinate. OF course bat-aim
phut-aim sem-sem is easy - part-time, full-time seem on their way to being
as Vietnamese as 'sot vang'.
Some areas I am watching with glee are:
How will they get at the difference between rule and govern? "My 2 year old
was in an ungovernable rage" "Haiphong, like Hanoi, is ungovernable, unlike
Da nang" Thanks to the World Bank governance is now translated as 'quan tri
nha nuoc', which is basically funny (mac ke moi phia). This tangle seems
related to a search for an equivalent to 'subject' as in 'loyal subjects of
the King' Cong dan sounds silly, chu the also - than dan is archaic. Watch
this space? You can in my experience wave your arms and say that thong tri
is not dieu hanh, but that does not get so far. And dieu is a very strange
word. (Anh ta bi dieu sang viec kia).
Then there is the utility to us English speakers of professional as a noun,
linked to the term professions. So far, no can do. Nha chuyen nghiep is
ucky. They could say 'nghe sy' (huyen on the e, not nang), and this works
for some whilst others look as though they have smelt something nasty.
Profession or professional are both tricky when said in Vietnamese phonemes
(unlike part-time). So again we watch this space.
Then there is the mysterious Russian. Ong La-trop, who founded the
University in northern Melbourne.
But my all time favourite is the so-ca-la-sip .... (Che Tuong Nhu take a
bow)