Vietnamization of Southern Ethnic Groups
From: Hill, Kimloan
Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 1:11 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group
Subject: [Vsg] HAPPY TET and a question
Dear colleagues,
Wishing you and your family a happy [nham thin] new year: good health, happiness and success.
I have an American friend whose wife came from a very wealthy farmer family in the Mekong, Tay Ninh area and whose family include relatives who are from Khmer, Chinese, Vietnamese origins. Some were blood related and some were adopted into the family to extend their power, prestige, and labor pool. In tracing his wife family's lineage, he ask the following question:
do you know of any recent scholarship that touches on informal adoptions as part of the "vietnamization" process in the South?
This is not in the realm of my research and study. It is gretly appreciated if any of you can suggest any book, or articles to read on the subject matter or something related to that.
Thank you in advance.
Kimloan
___________________________________________
Kimloan Hill, Ph. D
Lecturer, Vietnamese Heritage Language Program
3256 AP & M Building
Department of Linguistics
University of California, San Diego
9500 Gilman Dr
La Jolla, CA 92093-0108
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From: Marc J. Gilbert
Date: Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 2:05 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
You might ask Liem Vu Duc at Chulalongkorn University (vuducliemhnue@gmail.com) as he explored this issue in a paper on Hatien given at the Symposium on Southeast Asia in World History in Siem Reap I chaired earlier this month. Vietnamization may be the wrong term; hibridity often goes both ways. What does that matter to your wife’s relatives? It may be fun to find out!
Marc
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From: liem vu duc
Date: Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 7:32 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Happy New Year!
Chúc m?ng nam m?i Nhân Thìn,
Many thanks Marc, especially your mark on "Vietnamization". I actually prefer the idea of Viet modern state-making project moved to the ethnic zones and hills (Although this sounds very "James Scott").
The Viet in fact, came with two words to describe how they incorporated the other into their domain: Ph? (Pacify) and Giáo hóa (Cultivate).
For Loan's reading, you may take a look at:
David Chandler, Anti-Vietnamese Rebellion in Early Nineteenth Century Cambodia: Pre-colonial Imperialism and Pre-Nationalist Response, Journal of Southeast Asian Studies, Vol. 6, No. 1 (Mar., 1975), pp. 16-24
Choi Byung Wook, Southern Vietnam under the Reign of Minh Mang, 1820-1840, (Ithaca: Cornell, 2004)
Nola Cooke and Li Tana, eds., Water Frontier (Singapore: NUS Press and Rowman & Littlefield Publishers, INC., 2004)
Wynn Wilcox, Transnationalism and Multiethnicity in the early Nguyen Anh Gia Long Period, in Vietnam Borderless History, eds., Tuyet Nhung Tran and Tony Reid, (Madison: University of Wisconsin, 2006)
Other, like David Biggs and Pierre Brocheux examine changing human landscape in the Lower Mekong:
Pierre Brocheux, The Mekong Delta: Ecology, Economy, and Revolution, 1860-1960 (Madison: University of Wisconsin-Madison Press, 1995)
David Biggs, “Problematic Progress: Reading Environmental and Social Change on the Vinh Te Canal in the Western Mekong Delta,” in Journal of Southeast Asian Studies, Vol. 34, No. 1 (February 2003), pp. 77-96
In Vietnamese, M?c Th? Gia Ph?, Gia Ð?nh Thành Thông Chí, Ð?i Nam Nh?t Th?ng Chí and Nguy?n Phan Quang, Cu?c kh?i binh c?a Lê Van Khôi ? Gia Ð?nh, 1833-1835 (Hochiminh City, Nxb Thanh Pho Ho Chi Minh, 1991) may be useful.
You also can take a look at:
Li Tana, Nguyen Cochinchina (Ithaca: Cornell, 1998)
Nicolas Weber, The Destruction and Assimilation of Camp (1832-5) as seen from Cam Sources, Journal of Southeast Asian Studies 43.1(2012):158 180.
Nicolas Weber, Securing and Developing the South- western Region: The Role of the Cham and Malay Colons in Vietnam (1759-1867), Journal of the Economy and Social History of the Orient 54 (2011):739-772
And others by Philip Taylor and Nola Cooke (ANU) if you can come across.
Best Regards,
____________________________________
VU DUC LIEM,
Faculty of History,
Hanoi National University of Education, VIETNAM
& Southeast Asian Studies Center,
Chulalongkorn University, THAILAND
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From: Tai, Hue-Tam
Date: Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 7:53 PM
To: Vietnam StudiesGroup <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Happy New Year to you as well, Liem and Marc.
I don't know if Loan will find an answer to her specific question in the literature that Liem cites. Just one anecdote, however. Le van Khoi, Le van Duyet's adopted son was described as member of an ethnic minority.
Because of polygamy and remarriages, many extended families are multi- ethnic. That happened to my father's lineage. But how widespread was adoption is more difficult to document, let alone trans-ethnic adoption.
Fascinating question.
Hue Tam Ho Tai
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From: David Brown
Date: Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 7:54 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
I get the impression that -- as suggested in the post that started this string -- no one's looked into the extent to which the dominant Vietnamese culture changed as it moved south. True?
Anyone who's eaten many meals in both Saigon and Hanoi can't help but realize that the Southern cuisine has incorporated lots of Cambodian, Chinese and probably also Cham elements. Such seems to be also the case in religious practice and music, and probably lots of other things I'm less aware of.
It's the sort of inquiry that Vietnamese scholars could do far better than foreigners, were the party state less sensitive to inquiries that point to fundamental differences between South and North.
David Brown
Quondam diplomat,
occasional journalist
Fresno, California
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From: Melanie Beresford
Date: Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 8:38 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Hasn't Li Tana or somebody written about that - the absorption by the Viet of southern cultures as they moved south? I read it so long ago (at least 20 years) that I can't recall exactly who wrote it.
I do have a very distinct recollection of the smell of coconut oil permeating the streets of Saigon around meal times (I presume the smell of traffic has overwhelmed it by now). It's a very Southeast Asian smell which I never picked up in Hanoi.
cheers,
Melanie
--
Melanie Beresford
Associate Professor in Economics
Faculty of Business & Economics
Macquarie University, NSW 2109, Australia
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From: David Brown
Date: Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 8:47 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
When I tell my northern friends that my favorite Vietnamese dish is ca-ri gà n?u d?a (coconut chicken curry) they make a really pained face . . . .
In Nguyen Cochin China, as I recall, Li refers to the cultural assimilation but doesn't discuss it at any length. David
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From: Tai, Hue-Tam
Date: Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 5:59 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Food definitely bears a SEA and even SA imprint. When I lived in Sg, pho was definitely seen as northern. We southerners were more likely to eat hu tieu Nam Vang or hu tieu My Tho ; of course, this is the same dish as th Cambodian ku tiew--same name, too. Banh xeo, which you would not find in the North, is suspiciously similar to the South Indian dhosa. Speaking of which, the tray of betel leaves, areca nuts and lime pot that is an essential part of a wedding ceremony is also to be found in South Asian wedding rituals.
The quest for authenticity and cultural uniqueness is a fool's errand.
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From: Erica J. Peters
Date: Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 11:42 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
At my book launch party last night in San Francisco, Sonny Le noted that he was from the south, and had never tasted pho before leaving Vietnam in 1980.
There have always been significant differences between the northern and southern cuisines, even as they have also adopted elements of the other region's foods to some extent, along with endless other influences... And of course there are ongoing/evolving differences between the cuisines of the cities and the countrysides, and the lowlands and the uplands...
For those who are interested, Sonny blogs at http://25hawkinsroad.blogspot.com/, and his post today is about fish sauce...
Erica
Erica J. Peters
Director, Culinary Historians of Northern California
Author, Appetites and Aspirations in Vietnam: Food and Drink in the Long Nineteenth Century (AltaMira Studies in Food and Gastronomy, 2012)
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From: David Brown
Date: Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 11:55 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Hanoi-style pho is broth, meat, noodles and a bit of green onion. No bean sprouts, herbs or hoisin sauce, as in the south and in most diaspora restaurants. Chili optional in both instances. David
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From: Carl Robinson
Date: Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 1:37 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Of course, the Vietnamese absorbed elements of the Cham and Cambodian cultures as they migrated southwards. And when they finally arrived in the South, they found Chinese refugees from the downfall of the Ming Dynasty had already been provided refuge there by the southern Nguyen Lords. It was also inevitable that inter-marriage occurred, especially in cases where military action had taken place with "enemy" soldiers killed or taken prisoner and the victorious Vietnamese ones literally settling in. And who would have been doing the cooking? Certainly not the men! So, throw in cuisine too.
I've always been curious on where -- and who? -- introduced the Vietnamese to chillis? There is a real Chilli DMZ in the country. Further, the "pho" everyone knows around the world is the southern version which was embellished by '54 northern refugees in the South and then exported. The northern version is actually quite plain -- unless you pop until a Pho24 franchise which was started by a southerner!
If you were to do a DNA study on southern Vietnamese and compare them to northerners, I'm sure you'd pick up a much more homogeneous lot in the North. I've found that what makes a Vietnamese is the simple assertion that's what they are, especially with Chinese who've become totally absorbed after only a couple generations, have inter-married and no longer even speak their own language. Perhaps it's not fashionable to say this, but I'd also say that the physical appearance of southerners is much more diverse than northerners.
Best,
Carl Robinson
Former AP Correspondent, Saigon '68-75
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From: Melanie Beresford
Date: Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 10:37 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Don't recognize this description of the Hanoi pho. I always get a side dish of bean sprouts and herbs, also fresh chilli and lemon or cumquat which is added according to taste. Most people heap in some chilli sauce from the usual offering of 2-3 different ones to be found on every table. Hoisin sauce is Chinese and that part is true - you don't get it.
cheers,
Melanie
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From: Tai, Hue-Tam
Date: Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 5:36 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
in Hanoi, I never get bean sprouts with my pho. it comes with hoisin sauce, chili and lime. My Hanoi friends are rather dismissive of the southern practice of putting bean sprouts in pho. I used to say, in fact, that southerners tend to put bean sprouts and peanuts into every dish.
In Saigon, we used to buy pho from an itinerant vendor who sold pretty much the same thing. Then one day, around 1963 perhaps, my brother drove us to a restaurant that served new style pho, with different kinds of meat. I don't know how quickly this caught on.
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From: Melanie Beresford
Date: Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 6:36 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Do you guys eat your pho in one of those southern food chain places?
Melanie
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From: Tai, Hue-Tam
Date: Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 6:48 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
The one I ate last May at quite a few times is supposed to be famous. It's close to the cathedral. Does that help?
Hue Tam
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From: Melanie Beresford
Date: Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 9:05 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
I don't know that one. Maybe I've just never noticed the hoisin because I only go for the chilli sauce. Or maybe in the last decade or two there's been more of a N-S fusion in the cuisine.
cheers,
Melanie
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From: Hoang t. Dieu-Hien
Date: Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 12:03 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To add more anecdotes:
In 1994, my husband Joe and I rode a friend's Honda Dream (a 125cc Honda scooter) from HCMC to Ha` No^.i. We made many stops along the way. Joe drew a crowd of children everywhere we went with his brown hair, hazel eyes, red nose, and pale face. Somewhere between Phan Thie^'t and Qui Nho*n, I noticed a change in the general physical appearances of the children. It was something about the shape of their faces, eyes, and noses, and their bone structure. I felt like we had arrived at a new country and were looking at a genetically different people. That feeling came again when we crossed into Ha` Ti~nh. From these observations, I would venture that there were lots of intermarriages among the Vie^.t and the indigenous peoples as the Vie^.t extended South.
Closer to home, both my parents claim pure Vietnamese heritage, with no knowledge of ethnic minority blood. My mother is from Ta^y Ninh province. My relatives on my mother's side are of larger frames, wider eyes, and fuller lips, although their skin is a couple shades lighter than a Khmer. My father is from Ha` Ðo^ng in the North. My relatives on father's side are smaller built, have smaller eyes, more delicate noses, and fairer skin. They resemble more someone from China than relatives on my mother's side. I would not be surprised if my mother's side have Khmer blood somewhere in the past.
As for pho*?, in the summer of 1989, Joe and I, along with 10 other Americans, spent the summer in Ha` No^.i. We were assigned to live at the Ta^y Ho^` Hotel, also known as Qua?ng Ba' Resort, where party and top high level government officials went for retreats. After getting tired of several breakfasts of Russian butter on crust-less Russian white bread and sunny-side-up eggs, we requested pho*? for breakfast. The hotel staff was delighted. We waited with anticipation. We were going to have pho*? at the place of its creation, at the best government hotel, the only kind of hotels at the time, in Ha` No^.i with a fabulous kitchen staff who had fed us well. Bowls of clear broth with meat, noodles, and a sprinkle of green onions arrived. No basil, bean sprouts, lime, hoisin sauce, chili sauce, or anything else. We waited for the condiments, chatting all the while. A member of the kitchen staff came out later, looking very concerned. "You don't like the pho*?" she asked. "We were just waiting for the herbs and stuff," we replied. Looking puzzled, she said indicating the bowls of pho*?, "What herbs? It's all in there!"
Back then, the only Southerners who lived in Ha` No^.i were the handful of cadres who ta^.p ke^'t in 1954 and did not return home, and a handful or so who were assigned to work in HN after 1975. I would say that David Brown's descriptions of Ha` No^.i-style pho*? is closer to the "pure" original version. The version we are used to in the U.S. and many other places, is the version modified by the 1954 Northern migrants to the South. When the government began to allow people to travel from one place to another (inside Vie^.t Nam) without having to obtain permission from the police, there have been more mixing of people from different regions. Now we see a more fusion of regional cuisines, particularly in urban centers.
Today, we can find plateful of herbs served with pho*? in HN. There maybe hoisin sauce at the table, even. On the other hand, in the 21st century, when we traveled to HCMC for work, my Hanoian colleagues would insist to eat pho*? at "real pho*? Ba('c" places, where the proprietors were recent immigrants from HN. The herbs and sauces are available there, but the broth does taste different. Less sweet.
To put things into context, I was born and raised in Saigon, resettled in the U.S. in 1980, lived and worked for NGOs in HCMC 1993, HN 1994-1997. I move between the two cultures, north and south. When I am in the North, I enjoy pho*? for what it is. When I am in the South or overseas, I appreciate pho*? for what the migrants have made it.
I am now grappling with pho*? made by Korean or Filipino immigrants in the U.S. There is something missing in such pho*?
Hie^`n
Hoang t. Dieu-Hien, RN, MN, MPH
Lecturer/Fieldwork Coordinator
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From: Melanie Beresford
Date: Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 12:49 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
I had pho like that once - when I was staying in Hanoi during the 1980s - at the Metropole (then state-run and known as Thong Nhat). I think it was a function of the planned economy because the rest of the food was similarly tasteless. Maybe modern Hanoians think the real pho is what they ate in the era of austerity?
cheers,
Melanie
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From: Melanie Beresford
Date: Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 1:16 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Meant to add, by the way, that I would never expect good food from a state-run hotel like the Tay Ho. They were always full of Russians who refused point blank to eat Vietnamese food - which explains your problem with the white bread and the eggs. Hanoians grew up believing that westerners (or maybe white people) couldn't eat Vietnamese food. A Vietnamese colleague in 1991 described Russians in, quite frankly, racist terms - s**t-eating. Had its funny side though. On a plane trip once, on a Tupolyev, I was given a tiny sponge cake thing and my Vietnamese minder got a fried savoury snack. We swapped. She wanted the Russian food! Ah! The good ol' days - no seat belts and pretty much no cabin service! I asked for a glass of water as I had the flu and it took half an hour and many proddings to come. Also there was a wall separating the foreign passengers (and their minders) from the locals.
cheers,
Melanie
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From: Tai, Hue-Tam
Date: Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 4:00 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
The pho that Hien got tthe Tay Ho hotel was what southerners called pho Bac in the 1950s. I'm obviously older than Hien.
The pho we get in the US has much richer broth, partly because meat is so much cheaper here.
As for the inclusion of different cuts of beef, as I mentioned earlier, it seems to have been an early 1960s Saigon invention.
As for multi-ethnicity, I have also noticed regional differences.
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From: David Waters
Date: Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 10:16 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear participants,
This--thread--is--brilliant. I have learned much already. During my stays in Vietnam I noticed that many people living in the southern part of the country have features that I identify with Cambodians; namely, darker skin and cute, puffy cheeks.
Thank you (x) infinity
D. D. Waters
UW-Madison