Chinese loanwords in Vietnamese
From xuanzhixuan@yahoo.com Tue Sep 21 08:33:10 2004
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:28:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Fredrich Kahrl <xuanzhixuan@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: VSG: Chinese loanwords in Vietnamese
Dear all,
Am currently putting together a database of Chinese loanwords in Vietnamese (an engaging distraction of sorts), and, finding the waters a bit choppy in greyer regions, was interested to see if anyone might know of any materials (dictionaries, papers, etc.) that might be enlightening.
Many thanks,
Fritz
From hhtai@fas.harvard.edu Tue Sep 21 08:46:09 2004
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 11:44:24 -0400
From: Tam Tai <hhtai@fas.harvard.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Chinese loanwords in Vietnamese
A good place to start would be a dictionary such as Han-Viet tu dien by Dao Duy Anh. You could even start with Alexandre de Rhodes' dictionnary.
From rob@coombs.anu.edu.au Tue Sep 21 15:28:29 2004
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:25:46 +1000 (EST)
From: Rob Hurle <rob@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: VSG: Chinese loanwords in Vietnamese
Dear Fritz,
There's a 2001 dictionary "Tu+` DDie^?n Tu+` Ha'n Vie^.t" by Phan Van Cac, and published by NXB HCM City. I'm sure that there are others in the bookshops in Hanoi and HCM City. Hope this helps.
Cheers,
Rob Hurle
From judithh@u.washington.edu Tue Sep 21 18:20:39 2004
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:19:31 -0700
From: Judith Henchy <judithh@u.washington.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: VSG: Chinese loanwords in Vietnamese
These may be useful:
Author Nguyên, Nhu Ý
Title Tu diên giai thích thành ngu gôc Hán / Nguyên Nhu Ý, Nguyen Van Khang, Phan Xuân Thành Pub info [Hà Nôi?] : Van hóa, 1994
Author Nguyên, Tài Cân
Title Nguôn gôc và quá trình hình thành cách doc Hán Viêt / Nguyên Tài Cân Pub info [Hà Nôi] : Nhà xuát ban Ðai hoc quôc gia Hà Nôi, 2000
From gclchew@yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 21 20:01:19 2004
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 04:00:31 +0100 (BST)
From: Grace Chew <gclchew@yahoo.co.uk>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: VSG: Chinese loanwords in Vietnamese
Fritz:
I need clarification.
Is it assimilated loanwords in Chinese "re-borrowed" in Vietnamese or words from Chinese "loaned" in Vietnamese?
Best,
From M.Stokhof@fsw.vu.nl Wed Sep 22 15:30:47 2004
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:26:55 +0200
From: Malte Stokhof <M.Stokhof@fsw.vu.nl>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: VSG: Chinese loanwords in Vietnamese Rob Hurle
Dear Rob,
Great initiative!
This may be of use to you:
Hòang V*n Hành (P.G.S, P.T.S.) 1991 t* *i*n y*u t* hán vi*t thông d*ng NXB Khoa H*c Xã H*i. HN
(Toyota Foundation money)
regards,
Malte Stokhof
Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam
m.stokhof@fsw.vu.nl
From lfie@loc.gov Thu Sep 23 05:20:17 2004
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 08:19:19 -0400
From: Lien Huong Fiedler <lfie@loc.gov>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: VSG: Chinese loanwords in Vietnamese Rob Hurle
Dear Rob,
Buu Ke's dictionary, Tu Dien Han Viet Tu Nguyen with its URL http://hanosoft.com is a wonderful source. This was revised and published in 1999 by his son Vinh Cao, who is my cousin in Hue.
Lien Huong Fiedler
From xuanzhixuan@yahoo.com Thu Sep 23 23:57:16 2004
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 23:56:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Fredrich Kahrl <xuanzhixuan@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: loanwords: modest clarification
Dear all,
Thanks much to Grace for your insightful comments, to others for suggestions, and apologies for the confusion - I take full responsibility for this monstrosity (Rob is innocent).
Just to clarify, the original idea was more or less a product of curiosity and a desire to improve Vietnamese reading abilities by turning a more systematic eye to some of the phonological/morphological patterns in Vietnamese borrowings from Chinese. I have a few Han-Viet dictionaries here, but discovered that indeed there are many grey areas where the Han and Viet don't quite match, for a variety of reasons that probably require a more than a drop of fascination with the obscure to be broadly interesting. Was thus hoping to find (and am still hunting for) someone who's already braved and made sense out of the ambiguity.
The idea with all of this was to construct a database to eventually do two things: i) put together an algorithm that checks for patterns in phonemes/morphemes (e.g., tr/an but also tran) from Viet transliterations back into Han (recognizing that the sounds in Han have changed but assuming in good reconstructivist fashion that such changes were consistent/regular), ii) lend itself to a bit of comparative historical linguistics at some point further down the road (through adding Yue, Min, etc. and potentially adding sound files). A longer term project.
I would love to make this publicly available (and a public work) on the web at some point provided that it turns out to be remotely interesting. If anyone has suggestions for a potential home I would certainly be grateful.
- Fritz
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From adam@aduki.com.au Fri Sep 24 02:59:45 2004
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 19:55:20 +1000
From: "Adam @ Aduki @ FPT VN" <adam@aduki.com.au>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: loanwords: modest clarification
I have been watching this exchange with interest; I found and bought a book in Hanoi a few years ago, with a Vietnamese title I cannot clearly recall ~V something that would be translated as “Ruses and tricks: Coping with Chinese words in Vietnamese”. Its serious point was that what Vietnamese think are, and so teach their young as being, Chinese loan words, are what they refer to as Han-Viet words, but that from a linguistic point of view there are a wider range of words of Chinese origin, of which only some are refered to as Han Viet, some of which are not, and some of which are ~V interestingly loans through intermediary languages. So one can have more fun with Vietnamese if one knows about this, just as knowing that genteel is French, helps with having fun with English. A true gentle man also Rappers play with these things, as did
Shakespeare.
The book is in my room at MIALS and I will put up a proper reference when I get back. I read it as making a number of good and useful academic points in a somewhat playful manner.
My ~Sfun with Vietnamese~T today was trying out whether the Vietnamese Press~Rs use of ~Qkha nang tu luc tai chinh~R could be equated to (~Qresonates with~R) my own (via Bui Phung) use of Virtual in the ~QVirtual Share Holders~R of a ~QVirtual Share Company~R as ~QCo dong an~R ~V it worked. This is to do with SOEs.
We originally had ~Qao~R, but did not like it and Thay Phung suggested ~Qan~R which seems to groove away happily. I wish I knew what ~Qan~R means in classical Chinese ~E I know ~Qan so~R, of course.
The English version of the paper is up at SEARC in City University Hong Kong. I have a good Vietnamese translation if people are interested. Dau Thuy Ha was the translator.
Another fun translation is ~Qdac loi kinh te~R for ~Qeconomic rent~R, which was the creation of a ~QCau~R at NXB Chinh Tri Quoc gia when we were haggling about the translation of From Plan to Market, which I think is superb (dia to kinh te misses the point utterly ~E).
Adam Fforde (in Hanoi)
From hhtai@fas.harvard.edu Fri Sep 24 03:49:43 2004
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 06:47:55 -0400
From: Tam Tai <hhtai@fas.harvard.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: loanwords: modest clarification
Adam:
An: hidden. Chinese yin.
An danh: anonymous
A lot of neologisms are of Japanese coinage in late 19th century, adopted by Chinese but also probably introduced more directly into Vietnamese by Phan Boi Chau (I would love for someone to do a dissertation on PBC's role in this transmission, which I think will be of longer lasting impact than his political activism). Some neologisms became more widely used in Vietnam than in China, e.g. "in case of" "trong truong hop", which is not used that much in Chinese. It would be interesting to find out whether terms for new concepts such as virtual share company are the same as in Chinese; since the Chinese economy is ahead of Vietnam's, the phenomena have already had to be labeled. If not, we may have different terms, both "Chinese," to describe the same thing.
There are lots of words that Vietnamese do not think of as being of Chinese origins as in "hong" "pink, or rose." I remember Nguyen Dinh Hoa wanted to include it in his list of nom words.
On a different note: We passed by Super 88 market in Chinatown, which is owned by a Trieu Chau (an incredible success story in Boston). Some kiwi fruits were on display, labeled in Chinese. My Mandarin-speaking mother-in-law read aloud ji guai (strange), which did not make sense; my Cantonese-speaking husband said something else, closer but not enough. I read aloud ky quai using the southern pronounciation-- ky oai. Sounds close enough to kiwi. Now, I don't know how kiwi is called in China. I wonder whether this translation is a DIY on the part of the supermarket owner or whether it is widely accepted.
Hue-Tam
From bcampdvs@u.washington.edu Fri Sep 24 06:45:35 2004
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 06:44:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: bcampdvs@u.washington.edu
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: loanwords: a modest proposal
Adam and list:
last summer, i had a chance to begin looking at some nom with a tutor in Hanoi. he was careful to point out that many chinese characters have a Han Viet and a Nom reading. "peace" for instance, hoa binh. binh, "ping2" in mandarin, can also be read "bang" dau huyen. like in Cao Bang Province, which in the PRC is often referred to as "gao ping." if you can get your hands on a Nom dictionary, especially one that is organized according to Vietnamese pronounciation (i will dig up the reference for the one i have), nom graphs are listed along with the nom and Han Viet readings of Chinese graphs. this probably won't be too much help with the 19th century vocabulary, but it may clear up some grey areas for you.
best,
Bradley Davis
University of Washington
From adam@aduki.com.au Fri Sep 24 09:22:31 2004
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 02:19:55 +1000
From: "Adam @ Aduki @ FPT VN" <adam@aduki.com.au>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: loanwords: modest clarification
Hue-Tam
Isn~Rt this fun? The Vietnamese often refer to how the Chinese do very well taking foreign word sounds and giving them Chinese equivalents that have linked/~Rfunny~R meanings. What is Coke? I forget.
The ~Qan so~R of a set of equations is usually put in English as the ~Qunknown~R ~V ie, that which is knowable but to be known. This is more pointed than ~Qhidden~R, which suggests intent to hide, rather than simply something concealed as a result of the ~Qway things are~R ~E The Vietnamese use of ~Qta~R and related ways of refering to the local, allows one to play with the ways in which insiders know the unknown before it is known to the outsider ~E so to speak! ~QNo biet~R as juxtaposition for the ~Qta~R now set as our ~Qta~R rather than their~Rs (of course!).
Adam
From sinh.vinh@ualberta.ca Fri Sep 24 16:08:38 2004
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 17:07:08 -0600
From: Sinh Vinh <sinh.vinh@ualberta.ca>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: loanwords: modest clarification
Dear all,
I suppose Vietnamese borrowings from Chinese, or Chinese loanwords in Vietnamese, would include not only what are commonly called Sino-Vietnamese words (tu+`/tie^'ng Ha'n-Vie^.t), but also words that appear as if they do not have a Chinese connection (ba`n, ghe^', va^n va^n, etc.) but in fact they do. The number of the latter is also enormous. Apart from the words which belong to these two groups, there are also those of native or other origins.
To make a complex story short, in practice Fredrich's conceived project might be the compilation of a Vietnamese etymological dictionary (tu+. ddie^?n tu+` nguye^n), encompassing every subject field.
Needless to say, in order to compile such a dictionary, in addition to modern Vietnamese, knowledge of chu+~ Ha'n and chu+~ No^m would be essential\.
Have a great weekend.
VINH Sinh
From judithh@u.washington.edu Fri Sep 24 16:24:34 2004
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 16:23:21 -0700
From: Judith Henchy <judithh@u.washington.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: loanwords: modest clarification
Here's another title that may be interesting:
Author
Phan, Van Các
Title Tu diên tu Hán Viêt / Phan Van Các Pub info [Hà Nôi] : Giáo duc, 1994
From adam@aduki.com.au Thu Oct 7 01:49:50 2004
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 2004 18:47:25 +1000
From: "Adam @ Aduki" <adam@aduki.com.au>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Han-Viet reference
I mentioned earlier a book I had in my MIALS office ~V it is ~QMeo giai nghia tu Han Viet va chua loi chinh ta~R, Phan Ngoc, NXB Thanh Nien Ha Noi 2000
Adam