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On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 8:07 AM, Shawn McHale <mchale@gwu.edu> wrote:
Dear list,
It seems probable that some toponyms in the Mekong delta are derived from Khmer, such as Trà Vinh (Preah Trapeang), or the number of places with "Sóc" in the name [Khmer: srok].
But I what about names of geographical features, such as rạch [canal] and giồng [dune, ridge]?
Thanks for any help!
Shawn McHale
Associate Professor of History
George Washington University
Washington, DC 20052 USA
From: Vsg [mailto:vsg-bounces@mailman11.u.washington.edu] On Behalf Of Liam Kelley
Sent: Thursday, April 6, 2017 4:44 AM
To: mchale@gwu.edu
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Question on some Khmer loan-words in Vietnamese of the Mekong delta
Hi Shawn,
The dictionaries on this site http://sealang.net/ are fun to play around with. You can put an English world in the text box and search for words in Southeast Asian languages that have that meaning.
Searching for "ditch" in the Khmer dictionary, something close comes up if you drop the initial consonant "p" (but I'm not a linguist so I'm not sure how far we can go with this):
ព្រែក prɛɛk 1 n small river, creek, waterway, channel, tidal river, affluent of a river, canal. ទន្លេ, ស្ទឹង 2 p to be naturally twinned, divided, or paired (as a banana, a finger, or a toe).
Liam Kelley
University of Hawaii
From: David Marr <david.marr@anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Question on some Khmer loan-words in Vietnamese of the Mekong delta
Date: April 5, 2017 at 4:38:23 PM PDT
To: Liam Kelley <liam@hawaii.edu>, "mchale@gwu.edu" <mchale@gwu.edu>
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
This topic came up in Katie Dyt’s seminar last Tuesday, in the context of an impressive map she found in the BN, compiled by Taberd in the 1830s. Vietnamese and Khmer toponyms are scattered through the Mekong delta. We talked a little about Taberd’s sources. This was not a favourable time for Catholic missionaries to collect such information. Probably Taberd consulted earlier maps and showed his draft to merchants…
David Marr
ANU
From: "Mark J. Alves" <malves98@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Question on some Khmer loan-words in Vietnamese of the Mekong delta
Date: April 5, 2017 at 7:14:38 PM PDT
To: Liam Kelley <liam@hawaii.edu>, "mchale@gwu.edu" <mchale@gwu.edu>
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Reply-To: "Mark J. Alves" <malves98@yahoo.com>
If these are strictly in southern, Mekong Vietnamese, then a Khmer source must be considered.
Liam's proposal is reasonable. The reduction of 'pr' to 'r' patterns with other historical changes in Vietnamese as it lost initial consonant clusters (such as rừng, from Proto-Vietic *k-rəŋ). The vowel and final consonant combination are also reasonable (a similar pattern between mainstream and central Vietnamese occurs). If Vietnamese rạch (there is also lạch in dictionaries) is strictly used in the south, then Khmer prɛɛk is indeed a reasonable proposal.
As for 'ridge', there is Khmer រង rɔɔŋ - n ridge or hill in a field. The initial Khmer /r/, which can be trilled, leading to Vietnamese 'gi' is not unreasonable, but it is a little less solid than the first instance. However, no other comparable words come up for 'dune', so having only one source increases the possibility.
One must be careful about positing loanwords, but if the semantics are precisely consistent, if they are in a restricted geographic region to the south, and if they have reasonable sound correspondences (as I believe them to be, and both have low tones from the voiced initial) , Khmer prɛɛk and rɔɔŋ are certainly possible sources of Vietnamese rạch and giồng. But any missing details in the geography or semantics would reduce these possibilities somewhat.
Mark
From: Shawn McHale <mchale@gwu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Question on some Khmer loan-words in Vietnamese of the Mekong delta
Date: April 7, 2017 at 8:36:37 PM PDT
To: Liam Kelley <liam@hawaii.edu>, Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Cc: Tom Nguyen <nguyencungthong@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: mchale@gwu.edu
Dear all,
Thanks for this informative discussion! It shows that when historians like me wade into areas like this, where linguists rule, one has to be warned to be careful about etymologies. So thanks to all of you.
Like some of you, I imagine, I have been struck by names in the Mekong Delta that seemed strange or interesting to my ear -- place names like Thốt nốt, for example; the number of places beginning with "Cần" (Cần Thơ, Cần Giột . . .) or "Sóc" (Sóc Trăng, etc.), the name of the Vàm Cỏ River, and so on. But with Khmer, Chinese, Malay, and Cham all having peopled the delta in addition to Vietnamese, I've often not known how to make heads or tails of these names.
The note about lạch/ rạch being in Alexandre de Rhodes' dictionary would suggest that it was not derived from Khmer -- though perhaps it could have a common Austroasiatic (Mon-Khmer) ancestor?
I could not find "giồng," however, in his dictionary.
Again, many thanks!
Shawn McHale
On Fri, Apr 7, 2017 at 10:30 PM, Liam Kelley <liam@hawaii.edu> wrote:
Dear Nguyễn Cung Thông,
Thanks for this!!
I had in the back of my head that "lach" is an old term (people have argued that the "lac" in the term "Lac vuong" comes from that word. But I still wonder how "lach" became "rach" in the south. Is the change from "l" to "r" part of a larger pattern?
This is a very amateur linguistic observation, but if I spend time around British people, I'll start to do things like call a "LABratory" a "laBORatory." Vietnamese and Khmer are both Austroasiatic languages. I would assume then that lach and preek have the same origin, as they have the same meaning and sound similar. So could it be possible that through Viet-Khmer contact in the Delta the Vietnamese there started to alter the way that they pronounced lach?
In which case, "rach" would not be a direct loanword, but it would still be related to Khmer through a form of linguistic influence. Just a wild guess by a non-linguist.
Liam Kelley
University of Hawaii
On Fri, Apr 7, 2017 at 2:03 PM, Tom Nguyen <nguyencungthong@yahoo.com> wrote:
----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Tom Nguyen <nguyencungthong@yahoo.com>
To: "vsg@u.washington.edu" <vsg@u.washington.edu>; "vsg-request@mailman11.u.washington.edu" <vsg-request@mailman11.u.washington.edu>; Dien Nguyen <nguyendien519@gmail.com>; Hue-Tam Tai <hhtai@fas.harvard.edu>; Grace Chew <tropicalfern007@yahoo.co.jp>; Lư Giang Đinh <lugiangdinh@gmail.com>; Tuan Cuong Nguyen <cuonghannom@gmail.com>; Ngô Thanh Nhàn <nhan@temple.edu>
Sent: Saturday, 8 April 2017, 9:54
Subject: Re: Vsg Digest, Vol 267, Issue 5
Re: Question on some Khmer loan-words in Vietnamese of the
Mekong delta (David Marr)
Hi Liam,
We should be cautious in linking toponyms such as Rạch (Vietnamese, canal/channel/creek) to Khmer ព្រែក prɛɛk in the Taberd's map context (1830s). Taberd recorded both forms Rạch and Lạch (A) as lịch 瀝 as in Behaine's (his dictionary/1838 essentially copied Behaine's work/1772-1773). In both dictionaries, there was a place name called Ba Lạch (an important location to and from inland Cambodia, also known as Núi Sập, Ba Rạch, Thoại Giang ...). Lạch already existed in some very old Nôm texts, for instance
Lẻo (leo) lẻo duềnh xanh nước tựa dầu
Trăm ngòi ngàn lạch chảy về chầu (Hồng Đức Quốc Âm Thi Tập)
...
Khê cảng hẹp vướng lạch ngòi thông thu (Chỉ Nam Ngọc Âm Giải Nghĩa)
...
In Alexandre de Rhodes's dictionary (1651), lạch was recorded as a stream/channel (rivus). Note that An Nam (in de Rhodes's time) has its southernmost border at approx. 12° latitude.
While some words were obviously imported into Vietnamese such as ពាម piem > vàm (labialise front consonant) 汎 (phiếm, this is closer phonetic to Khmer piem) in Taberd's dictionary (1838, as in vàm rạch).
Cheers,
Nguyễn Cung Thông
(Home) +61385222298 (Mobile) 0422874335
(A) It should be noted here about the semantic field of lạch (canal/channel), rạch: (verb) to divide, lách (verb) to digress, rách (torn to pieces),etc.
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Question on some Khmer loan-words in Vietnamese of the Mekong delta
Date: April 8, 2017 at 5:44:00 AM PDT
To: "mchale@gwu.edu" <mchale@gwu.edu>, Liam Kelley <liam@hawaii.edu>, Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Cc: Tom Nguyen <nguyencungthong@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: "Mark J. Alves" <malves98@yahoo.com>
Shawn and all,
Regarding Austroasiatic, there is no Proto-Austroasiatic form that matches the words in question (sealang.net/monkhmer/dictionary). Vietnamese mương 'canal' is generally considered a Tai-Kadai loanword as that word is widespread in Tai-Kadai (e.g., Proto-Tai *hmɯeŋ) and is in only Viet-Muong, not other Austroasiatic branches. So it makes sense to look for a native term in Vietnamese for the origins of rạch, no such form is is in neighboring Katuic, Bahnaric, or Khmuic groups. By the way, Khmer prɛɛk ព្រែក 'canal' also has in Headley's dictionary entry the detail "(common element in Cambodian place names)", which does provide additional support. I don't think seeing the word even in 1400s Vietnamese texts further north doesn't mean there couldn't be a connection (direction of borrowing unclear), but the bottom line is the evidence is meager, not enough to make strong claims.
On r vs l, there are instances of /r/ vs /l/ alternations in diachronic phonology, generally with /r/ being older than /l/, but I can't say whether this is such an instance). However, I wonder whether the /l/ initial is for 'stream', while the /r/ initial is for 'canal'. Consider the Nom Foundation data. It does seem as though the /r/ initial is the relevant etymon.
rạch 澤 U+6fa4 kênh rạch vhn canal
rạch 瀝 U+701d kênh rạch btcn canal
rạch 𤃝 U+240dd kênh rạch gdhn canal
lạch 㴖 U+3d16 lạch sông gdhn stream
lạch 瀝 U+701d lạch sông vhn stream
lạch 𤃝 U+240dd lạch sông gdhn stream
As for giồng, Khmer រង rɔɔŋ is for a "ridge or hill in a field (for planting certain crops such as potatoes)", not the best semantic match for a geographic name. There is also Proto-Wa-Lawa *rɔŋ "ravine, ditch, stream", but the semantics are even weaker. I don't see a source--native or otherwise--of Vietnamese giồng.
So unfortunately, the linguistic data gives tempting bits, but not strong supporting data. I think the best one can say is that it is not impossible that rạch is from Khmer, but it could well be a native Vietnamese term with no clear etymological source (it's definitely NOT an Austroasiatic etymon).
I've occasionally seen studies of place names in Vietnamese publications (I think it was central to northern Vietnam), but I haven't seen one for southern Vietnam.
Mark
From: Shawn McHale <mchale@gwu.edu>
To: Mark J. Alves <malves98@yahoo.com>
Cc: Liam Kelley <liam@hawaii.edu>; Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>; Tom Nguyen <nguyencungthong@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sunday, 9 April 2017, 1:44
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Question on some Khmer loan-words in Vietnamese of the Mekong delta
Mark, On this comment, a clarification please:
"As for giồng, Khmer រង rɔɔŋ is for a "ridge or hill in a field (for planting certain crops such as potatoes)", not the best semantic match for a geographic name. There is also Proto-Wa-Lawa *rɔŋ "ravine, ditch, stream", but the semantics are even weaker. I don't see a source--native or otherwise--of Vietnamese giồng."
The giồng in the Mekong delta, such as in Trà Vinh province (with lots of Khmer Krom living on them) are permanent dunes/ ridges that have exactly this function -- people live on them and plant crops. So wouldn't this be a good match?
Many thanks!!
Shawn McHale
From: Tom Nguyen <nguyencungthong@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Question on some Khmer loan-words in Vietnamese of the Mekong delta
Date: April 8, 2017 at 9:16:47 PM PDT
To: "mchale@gwu.edu" <mchale@gwu.edu>, "Mark J. Alves" <malves98@yahoo.com>
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Reply-To: Tom Nguyen <nguyencungthong@yahoo.com>
Hi Liam,
BTW, Le Trung Hoa (and a few others) did suggest the connection between rạch and ព្រែក prɛɛk. I have some reservations about this: he didn't know that rạch/lạch 瀝 occurred in de Rhodes's work (1651) and other older Nom texts. The above nexus is quite different in comparison to the case of Vàm, Nam Vang, Trà Vinh, Cà Mau ខ្មៅ kmav ,etc (A). Historical data should compliment linguistic data and vice versa.
Cheers (to be continued)
Nguyễn Cung Thông
(Home) +6138522229 (Mobile) 0422874335
(A) these new-comer terms only exist from 18th century till now
From: Tom Nguyen <nguyencungthong@yahoo.com>
To: "mchale@gwu.edu" <mchale@gwu.edu>; Mark J. Alves <malves98@yahoo.com>
Cc: Liam Kelley <liam@hawaii.edu>; Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Sunday, 9 April 2017, 13:04
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Question on some Khmer loan-words in Vietnamese of the Mekong delta
Hi Liam/Shawn,
Liam may have alluded to different language contact strata in his search for rạch/lạch vs. ព្រែក prɛɛk. Let me repeat some of more obvious synchronic data:
(p > v)
ពាម piem > vàm (labialised front consonant) 汎 (phiếm, this is closer phonetic to Khmer piem) in Taberd's dictionary (1838, as in vàm rạch)
ភ្នំពេញ /pnum pɨɲ/ Phnom Penh (capital of Cambodia) > Nam Vang/Vinh 南榮
ត្រពាំង /trɑpeaŋ/ > Trà Vinh 茶榮
...
...
In an older stratum, the following is noted
*pəram (proto Bahnaric, number five) : ប្រាំ pram (Khmer) - lăm năm dăm (Việt)(A)
Hi Mark,
There have been some works done on these Mekong Delta toponyms in the past, I believe there was a PhD thesis on this two decades ago (viz. Lê Trung Hoa),etc. Please read this page for example http://www.vanhoahoc.vn/nghien-cuu/van-hoa-viet-nam/vhvn-nhung-van-de-chung/76-le-trung-hoa-dia-danh-nhung-tam-bia-lich-su-van-hoa-cua-dat-nuoc.html
Cheers (to be continued)
Nguyễn Cung Thông
(A) the liquid consonant r (due to its complex articulation features) certainly plays important role in English language (American, British, Scottish, Australian ... in addition to Liam's observation of intonation LAboratory/laBOratory), Chinese (Mainland vs. Taiwan ...) and Vietnamese is no exception. Northern accent of ra (exit) is za: in comparison to Southern ɹa: and ja: (note the palatalised trend), this is an important consideration of rạch/lạch and "Is the change from "l" to "r" part of a larger pattern?" (Liam's very interesting question)
From: "Mark J. Alves" <malves98@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Question on some Khmer loan-words in Vietnamese of the Mekong delta
Date: April 9, 2017 at 12:27:06 PM PDT
To: Tom Nguyen <nguyencungthong@yahoo.com>, "mchale@gwu.edu" <mchale@gwu.edu>
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Reply-To: "Mark J. Alves" <malves98@yahoo.com>
Thank you, Shawn. Your pointing out the close semantics of giồng and the data in Khmer and Wa-Lawa languages I had noted does increase the likely connection. It actually seems that giồng is a likely Austroasiatic etymon (not a loanword from Khmer as Wa-Lawa languages are in n. Burma and s. China) as it is seen in multiple branches. However, highly specialized shared semantics of Khmer and Vietnamese could be attributed to more recent (i.e., the last several centuries) contact in the region.
Thanks, Tom, for pointing out the dissertation and useful points on distinguishing more recent loanwords from original shared Austroasiatic words. I'm still not sure that PREEK can be fully excluded as a shared Viet-Khmer word since it's an initial cluster /pr/ reducing to /r/, so we don't expected /p/ to /v/. But it's clearly not an Austroasiatic etymon and so if it is borrowed, it would have to have been borrowed from Khmer into Viet, or else the intial /pr/ cannot be accounted for.
Mark
From: Hue-Tam Tai <hhtai@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Question on some Khmer loan-words in Vietnamese of the Mekong delta
Date: April 10, 2017 at 7:07:06 AM PDT
To: "Mark J. Alves" <malves98@yahoo.com>
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>, Tom Nguyen <nguyencungthong@yahoo.com>
I've been reluctant to contribute to this fascinating thread as I still am inept with diacritics.
I am amused at Le Trung Hoa's use of "thieu so" to refer to toponyms, especially in the Mekong Delta. These toponyms are evidence of prior settlement by non-Viet people.
As a chiid, I used to be puzzled by the many places named after women, or s I thought: Ba Ria, Ba Diem, Ba Chieu, Ba Queo. Even Ba Den mountain is now suspect.
My father was born in Cai Rang in Can Tho, adjacent to Cai Chanh. These names always made me laugh.
Interestingly, it does not seem that southern villages have "beautiful names" (ten chu) as in the north. For example, Dong Ky's colloquial name is Lang Coi, the Kham Thien neighborhood in Hanoi was known as Lang Chay, etc...
Hue-Tam Ho Tai
Harvard
On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 10:17 AM, Tom Nguyen <nguyencungthong@yahoo.com> wrote:
Thank you Mark for your inputs - I 'd like to add a few more details for clarity and bring the Chamic sub-stratum into this discussion (leaving the field open for further thoughts), Cham interaction shouldn't be ignored from historical and geographical perspectives?
1. The sound shift p- to v- is facilitated by Southern dialect, i.e. v is actually pronounced close to mj- (labialised and palatalised trend):
ពាម piem > vàm (labialised front consonant) 汎 (phiếm, this is closer phonetic to Khmer piem) in Taberd's dictionary (1838, as in vàm rạch)
ភ្នំពេញ /pnum pɨɲ/ Phnom Penh (capital of Cambodia) > Nam Vang/Vinh 南榮
ត្រពាំង /trɑpeaŋ/ > Trà Vinh 茶榮
..etc...
(the above Vietnamese forms probably wouldn't occur, if Cambodia was to be located next to Northern provinces/Red river delta)
2. Let's look closer at the semantic field of រង rɔɔŋ :
1a p to support (from below); to parry, to block or ward off(a blow); to bear, to endure.
1b n legs or supports (of a box...).
2 n ridge or hill in a field (for planting certain crops such as potatoes).
3 p to become clear, to clear up; to be clear, limpid (as liquid after the dregs have settled).
4 p big, large, prosperous, progressive. រង់, រុង
Meaning 4 p has an equivalent Vietnamese word rộng (large/big), with the palatalisation trend of the Southern accent, it can lead to the current form giồng (and other variants such as nhồng/cao nhồng, nhồng nhộng ...) with more specialised meaning (dune - definition 2 n) - this adds weight to a possible Khmer etymon?
However, in Behaine (1772/1773) and Taberd (1838) dictionaries, they recorded an interesting entry vồng (ground elevated for cultivation - vồng khoai, vồng rau). This word has a wide semantic field from cầu vồng/rainbow to vượt vồng (determined). Again, with the Southern accent (và > dà/jà, vui > dui/jui), this can also lead to the current form of giồng (dune).
However still, if Cham language is to be considered (A) - there is a word which is consistent with the meaning of giồng, i.e. plon/plong (bulging out, a mound). This brings on the scene another possible stratum of Chamic connection, which happened earlier than Vietnamese final settlement in Mekong Delta since 18th century (Cham has approx. 10% from Mon-Khmer lexicons/Headley 1976).
My two bob's worth,
Nguyễn Cung Thông
(Home) +61385222298 (Mobile) 0422874335
(A) ghe (Viet) means a boat, which has entered Vietnamese vocabulary since 18th century till now (Southern VN), has cognates in Cham gaiy/ke and Khmer គែ kɛɛ
On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 10:00 AM Shawn McHale <mchale@gwu.edu> wrote:
A Cham/ Chamic connection? I suppose anything is possible. But some notes.
Yes, there are Cham in the delta - around Châu Đốc, for example, and formerly in Tây Ninh. But if I am remembering my Nicholas Weber correctly, these Cham settlements in the Mekong delta were established by the Vietnamese as đồn điền or military settlements to lay claim to territory on the frontier between Cambodia and Vietnam. (In other words, the Cham moved to the far West serve the Nguyễn.) The Cham are not found more to the East in and around Trà Vinh/ Sóc Trăng, which is where many giồng are, and which have been Khmer settlements for aeons. And in fact we can easily guess where Khmer settlements were historically, simply by looking at when Khmer temples were established in the Mekong delta and when.
It is worth noting that the Khmer have long lived on these giồng (when no Vietnamese did).
So . . . it seems most plausible to argue that giồng has EITHER an Austroasiatic etymon OR is of Cambodian origin. The Cham angle seems far less likely.
It is worth putting forth a guess of mine, which is that Vietnamese did not become more than 50% of the population of the delta until the late 18th century. It was settled by Khmer and of course by Ming refugees. The rapid Vietnamization of the delta occurs in the 19th century, both because of Vietnamese inflows and, it appears, Khmer outflows.
Shawn McHale
From: William Noseworthy <wnosewor@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Question on some Khmer loan-words in Vietnamese of the Mekong delta
Date: April 10, 2017 at 9:16:41 AM PDT
To: Tom Nguyen <nguyencungthong@yahoo.com>, mchale@gwu.edu
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Dear All,
To tag on to this thread, in response to Professor McHales suggestion:
During my dissertation work I found many Chamic and Cham names through south central Vietnam, as many will likely know, even the famous Ia Drang valley is the same Chamic root as the coastal town Nha Trang (Aia Trang in Cham: Aia being water: and Trang being a place where either warm and cold, or fresh and salt, waters mix).
You also find a good number of Cham names in Kampong Cham province in Cambodia, as well as in Kandal.
The Tay Ninh community, is, as Professor McHale notes, and Weber has proven, almost entirely a feature of Don Dien (sorry no diacritics on the phone), but you might find some tracts of agricultal land that reference Chamic names in oral encounters. Still, never on the maps I examined in the archives.
Chau Doc is more complicated because there is a record of Don Dien, as well as a record of both Malay and Cham claiming to be in the area well before the Don Dien were established.
I found evidence that clerics in Chau Doc were more tied to Chruoy Changvar by Phnom Penh, where they essentially had a Mufti to look up to, well into the colonial period, even as they were supposed to be well under Vietnamese administration by the eighteenth and nineteenth century. But linguistically, and interestingly enough, this didn't result in assertions of Cham, Arabic, or Malay toponyms as we might expect. Rather a smattering of Khmer terms were adopted. Where you get into grey area is terms that are basically the same in Khmer and Cham (Phum in Khmer and Bhum in Cham), but Khmer language influence was still quite strong among Chau Doc Cham in the twentieth century. On that note "sway" (xoai; svai) might occasionally be used for Mango in Chau Doc, but the Cham word is Pa-ok, which you almost never hear in the delta, let alone see written in sources from the area.
Another example, there is some evidence to suggest Cham were referring to Chau Doc as Maot Chroak (the Khmer name, apologies if I'm romanizing oddly), well into the 1950s. This changes in the 1960s when clerics become recognized by RVN in more official capacity, and Cham adapt the term Chau Doc much more broadly.
It's a wrinkle, but hopefully one that supports what I've found to be very good explanations, hypotheses and suggestions so far, with thanks to Professor McHale for starting the thread, and to all others for their contributions. Language is fun!
Very best to all,
Billy
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