Question on some Khmer loan-words in Vietnamese of the Mekong delta

On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 8:07 AM, Shawn McHale <mchale@gwu.edu> wrote:

Dear list,

It seems probable that some toponyms in the Mekong delta are derived from Khmer, such as Trà Vinh (Preah Trapeang), or the number of places with "Sóc" in the name [Khmer: srok].

But I what about names of geographical features, such as rạch [canal] and giồng [dune, ridge]?

Thanks for any help!

Shawn McHale

Associate Professor of History

George Washington University

Washington, DC 20052 USA

From: Vsg [mailto:vsg-bounces@mailman11.u.washington.edu] On Behalf Of Liam Kelley

Sent: Thursday, April 6, 2017 4:44 AM

To: mchale@gwu.edu

Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>

Subject: Re: [Vsg] Question on some Khmer loan-words in Vietnamese of the Mekong delta

Hi Shawn,

The dictionaries on this site http://sealang.net/ are fun to play around with. You can put an English world in the text box and search for words in Southeast Asian languages that have that meaning.

Searching for "ditch" in the Khmer dictionary, something close comes up if you drop the initial consonant "p" (but I'm not a linguist so I'm not sure how far we can go with this):

ព្រែក prɛɛk 1 n small river, creek, waterway, channel, tidal river, affluent of a river, canal. ទន្លេ, ស្ទឹង 2 p to be naturally twinned, divided, or paired (as a banana, a finger, or a toe).

Liam Kelley

University of Hawaii

From: David Marr <david.marr@anu.edu.au>

Subject: Re: [Vsg] Question on some Khmer loan-words in Vietnamese of the Mekong delta

Date: April 5, 2017 at 4:38:23 PM PDT

To: Liam Kelley <liam@hawaii.edu>, "mchale@gwu.edu" <mchale@gwu.edu>

Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>

This topic came up in Katie Dyt’s seminar last Tuesday, in the context of an impressive map she found in the BN, compiled by Taberd in the 1830s. Vietnamese and Khmer toponyms are scattered through the Mekong delta. We talked a little about Taberd’s sources. This was not a favourable time for Catholic missionaries to collect such information. Probably Taberd consulted earlier maps and showed his draft to merchants…

David Marr

ANU

From: "Mark J. Alves" <malves98@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [Vsg] Question on some Khmer loan-words in Vietnamese of the Mekong delta

Date: April 5, 2017 at 7:14:38 PM PDT

To: Liam Kelley <liam@hawaii.edu>, "mchale@gwu.edu" <mchale@gwu.edu>

Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>

Reply-To: "Mark J. Alves" <malves98@yahoo.com>

If these are strictly in southern, Mekong Vietnamese, then a Khmer source must be considered.

Liam's proposal is reasonable. The reduction of 'pr' to 'r' patterns with other historical changes in Vietnamese as it lost initial consonant clusters (such as rừng, from Proto-Vietic *k-rəŋ). The vowel and final consonant combination are also reasonable (a similar pattern between mainstream and central Vietnamese occurs). If Vietnamese rạch (there is also lạch in dictionaries) is strictly used in the south, then Khmer prɛɛk is indeed a reasonable proposal.

As for 'ridge', there is Khmer រង rɔɔŋ - n ridge or hill in a field. The initial Khmer /r/, which can be trilled, leading to Vietnamese 'gi' is not unreasonable, but it is a little less solid than the first instance. However, no other comparable words come up for 'dune', so having only one source increases the possibility.

One must be careful about positing loanwords, but if the semantics are precisely consistent, if they are in a restricted geographic region to the south, and if they have reasonable sound correspondences (as I believe them to be, and both have low tones from the voiced initial) , Khmer prɛɛk and rɔɔŋ are certainly possible sources of Vietnamese rạch and giồng. But any missing details in the geography or semantics would reduce these possibilities somewhat.

Mark

From: Shawn McHale <mchale@gwu.edu>

Subject: Re: [Vsg] Question on some Khmer loan-words in Vietnamese of the Mekong delta

Date: April 7, 2017 at 8:36:37 PM PDT

To: Liam Kelley <liam@hawaii.edu>, Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>

Cc: Tom Nguyen <nguyencungthong@yahoo.com>

Reply-To: mchale@gwu.edu

Dear all,

Thanks for this informative discussion! It shows that when historians like me wade into areas like this, where linguists rule, one has to be warned to be careful about etymologies. So thanks to all of you.

Like some of you, I imagine, I have been struck by names in the Mekong Delta that seemed strange or interesting to my ear -- place names like Thốt nốt, for example; the number of places beginning with "Cần" (Cần Thơ, Cần Giột . . .) or "Sóc" (Sóc Trăng, etc.), the name of the Vàm Cỏ River, and so on. But with Khmer, Chinese, Malay, and Cham all having peopled the delta in addition to Vietnamese, I've often not known how to make heads or tails of these names.

The note about lạch/ rạch being in Alexandre de Rhodes' dictionary would suggest that it was not derived from Khmer -- though perhaps it could have a common Austroasiatic (Mon-Khmer) ancestor?

I could not find "giồng," however, in his dictionary.

Again, many thanks!

Shawn McHale

On Fri, Apr 7, 2017 at 10:30 PM, Liam Kelley <liam@hawaii.edu> wrote:

Subject: Re: [Vsg] Question on some Khmer loan-words in Vietnamese of the Mekong delta

Date: April 8, 2017 at 5:44:00 AM PDT

To: "mchale@gwu.edu" <mchale@gwu.edu>, Liam Kelley <liam@hawaii.edu>, Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>

Cc: Tom Nguyen <nguyencungthong@yahoo.com>

Reply-To: "Mark J. Alves" <malves98@yahoo.com>

Shawn and all,

Regarding Austroasiatic, there is no Proto-Austroasiatic form that matches the words in question (sealang.net/monkhmer/dictionary). Vietnamese mương 'canal' is generally considered a Tai-Kadai loanword as that word is widespread in Tai-Kadai (e.g., Proto-Tai *hmɯeŋ) and is in only Viet-Muong, not other Austroasiatic branches. So it makes sense to look for a native term in Vietnamese for the origins of rạch, no such form is is in neighboring Katuic, Bahnaric, or Khmuic groups. By the way, Khmer prɛɛk ព្រែក 'canal' also has in Headley's dictionary entry the detail "(common element in Cambodian place names)", which does provide additional support. I don't think seeing the word even in 1400s Vietnamese texts further north doesn't mean there couldn't be a connection (direction of borrowing unclear), but the bottom line is the evidence is meager, not enough to make strong claims.

On r vs l, there are instances of /r/ vs /l/ alternations in diachronic phonology, generally with /r/ being older than /l/, but I can't say whether this is such an instance). However, I wonder whether the /l/ initial is for 'stream', while the /r/ initial is for 'canal'. Consider the Nom Foundation data. It does seem as though the /r/ initial is the relevant etymon.

rạch 澤 U+6fa4 kênh rạch vhn canal

rạch 瀝 U+701d kênh rạch btcn canal

rạch 𤃝 U+240dd kênh rạch gdhn canal

lạch 㴖 U+3d16 lạch sông gdhn stream

lạch 瀝 U+701d lạch sông vhn stream

lạch 𤃝 U+240dd lạch sông gdhn stream

As for giồng, Khmer រង rɔɔŋ is for a "ridge or hill in a field (for planting certain crops such as potatoes)", not the best semantic match for a geographic name. There is also Proto-Wa-Lawa *rɔŋ "ravine, ditch, stream", but the semantics are even weaker. I don't see a source--native or otherwise--of Vietnamese giồng.

So unfortunately, the linguistic data gives tempting bits, but not strong supporting data. I think the best one can say is that it is not impossible that rạch is from Khmer, but it could well be a native Vietnamese term with no clear etymological source (it's definitely NOT an Austroasiatic etymon).

I've occasionally seen studies of place names in Vietnamese publications (I think it was central to northern Vietnam), but I haven't seen one for southern Vietnam.

Mark

From: Shawn McHale <mchale@gwu.edu>

To: Mark J. Alves <malves98@yahoo.com>

Cc: Liam Kelley <liam@hawaii.edu>; Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>; Tom Nguyen <nguyencungthong@yahoo.com>

Sent: Sunday, 9 April 2017, 1:44

Subject: Re: [Vsg] Question on some Khmer loan-words in Vietnamese of the Mekong delta

Mark, On this comment, a clarification please:

"As for giồng, Khmer រង rɔɔŋ is for a "ridge or hill in a field (for planting certain crops such as potatoes)", not the best semantic match for a geographic name. There is also Proto-Wa-Lawa *rɔŋ "ravine, ditch, stream", but the semantics are even weaker. I don't see a source--native or otherwise--of Vietnamese giồng."

The giồng in the Mekong delta, such as in Trà Vinh province (with lots of Khmer Krom living on them) are permanent dunes/ ridges that have exactly this function -- people live on them and plant crops. So wouldn't this be a good match?

Many thanks!!

Shawn McHale

From: Tom Nguyen <nguyencungthong@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [Vsg] Question on some Khmer loan-words in Vietnamese of the Mekong delta

Date: April 8, 2017 at 9:16:47 PM PDT

To: "mchale@gwu.edu" <mchale@gwu.edu>, "Mark J. Alves" <malves98@yahoo.com>

Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>

Reply-To: Tom Nguyen <nguyencungthong@yahoo.com>

Hi Liam,

BTW, Le Trung Hoa (and a few others) did suggest the connection between rạch and ព្រែក prɛɛk. I have some reservations about this: he didn't know that rạch/lạch 瀝 occurred in de Rhodes's work (1651) and other older Nom texts. The above nexus is quite different in comparison to the case of Vàm, Nam Vang, Trà Vinh, Cà Mau ខ្មៅ kmav ,etc (A). Historical data should compliment linguistic data and vice versa.

Cheers (to be continued)

Nguyễn Cung Thông

(Home) +6138522229 (Mobile) 0422874335

(A) these new-comer terms only exist from 18th century till now

From: Tom Nguyen <nguyencungthong@yahoo.com>

To: "mchale@gwu.edu" <mchale@gwu.edu>; Mark J. Alves <malves98@yahoo.com>

Cc: Liam Kelley <liam@hawaii.edu>; Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>

Sent: Sunday, 9 April 2017, 13:04

Subject: Re: [Vsg] Question on some Khmer loan-words in Vietnamese of the Mekong delta

Hi Liam/Shawn,

Liam may have alluded to different language contact strata in his search for rạch/lạch vs. ព្រែក prɛɛk. Let me repeat some of more obvious synchronic data:

(p > v)

ពាម piem > vàm (labialised front consonant) 汎 (phiếm, this is closer phonetic to Khmer piem) in Taberd's dictionary (1838, as in vàm rạch)

ភ្នំពេញ /pnum pɨɲ/ Phnom Penh (capital of Cambodia) > Nam Vang/Vinh 南榮

ត្រពាំង /trɑpeaŋ/ > Trà Vinh 茶榮

...

...

In an older stratum, the following is noted

*pəram (proto Bahnaric, number five) : ប្រាំ pram (Khmer) - lăm năm dăm (Việt)(A)

Hi Mark,

There have been some works done on these Mekong Delta toponyms in the past, I believe there was a PhD thesis on this two decades ago (viz. Lê Trung Hoa),etc. Please read this page for example http://www.vanhoahoc.vn/nghien-cuu/van-hoa-viet-nam/vhvn-nhung-van-de-chung/76-le-trung-hoa-dia-danh-nhung-tam-bia-lich-su-van-hoa-cua-dat-nuoc.html

Cheers (to be continued)

Nguyễn Cung Thông

(A) the liquid consonant r (due to its complex articulation features) certainly plays important role in English language (American, British, Scottish, Australian ... in addition to Liam's observation of intonation LAboratory/laBOratory), Chinese (Mainland vs. Taiwan ...) and Vietnamese is no exception. Northern accent of ra (exit) is za: in comparison to Southern ɹa: and ja: (note the palatalised trend), this is an important consideration of rạch/lạch and "Is the change from "l" to "r" part of a larger pattern?" (Liam's very interesting question)

From: "Mark J. Alves" <malves98@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [Vsg] Question on some Khmer loan-words in Vietnamese of the Mekong delta

Date: April 9, 2017 at 12:27:06 PM PDT

To: Tom Nguyen <nguyencungthong@yahoo.com>, "mchale@gwu.edu" <mchale@gwu.edu>

Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>

Reply-To: "Mark J. Alves" <malves98@yahoo.com>

Thank you, Shawn. Your pointing out the close semantics of giồng and the data in Khmer and Wa-Lawa languages I had noted does increase the likely connection. It actually seems that giồng is a likely Austroasiatic etymon (not a loanword from Khmer as Wa-Lawa languages are in n. Burma and s. China) as it is seen in multiple branches. However, highly specialized shared semantics of Khmer and Vietnamese could be attributed to more recent (i.e., the last several centuries) contact in the region.

Thanks, Tom, for pointing out the dissertation and useful points on distinguishing more recent loanwords from original shared Austroasiatic words. I'm still not sure that PREEK can be fully excluded as a shared Viet-Khmer word since it's an initial cluster /pr/ reducing to /r/, so we don't expected /p/ to /v/. But it's clearly not an Austroasiatic etymon and so if it is borrowed, it would have to have been borrowed from Khmer into Viet, or else the intial /pr/ cannot be accounted for.

Mark

From: Hue-Tam Tai <hhtai@fas.harvard.edu>

Subject: Re: [Vsg] Question on some Khmer loan-words in Vietnamese of the Mekong delta

Date: April 10, 2017 at 7:07:06 AM PDT

To: "Mark J. Alves" <malves98@yahoo.com>

Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>, Tom Nguyen <nguyencungthong@yahoo.com>

I've been reluctant to contribute to this fascinating thread as I still am inept with diacritics.

I am amused at Le Trung Hoa's use of "thieu so" to refer to toponyms, especially in the Mekong Delta. These toponyms are evidence of prior settlement by non-Viet people.

As a chiid, I used to be puzzled by the many places named after women, or s I thought: Ba Ria, Ba Diem, Ba Chieu, Ba Queo. Even Ba Den mountain is now suspect.

My father was born in Cai Rang in Can Tho, adjacent to Cai Chanh. These names always made me laugh.

Interestingly, it does not seem that southern villages have "beautiful names" (ten chu) as in the north. For example, Dong Ky's colloquial name is Lang Coi, the Kham Thien neighborhood in Hanoi was known as Lang Chay, etc...

Hue-Tam Ho Tai

Harvard

On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 10:17 AM, Tom Nguyen <nguyencungthong@yahoo.com> wrote: