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From thompsonc2@southernct.edu Sun Jan 23 11:58:09 2005
Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 14:56:31 -0500
From: Michele Thompson <thompsonc2@southernct.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Fwd: Calender Cats
Dear VSGers,
I have had some questions from another list about the Vietnamese use
of a cat rather than a rabbit as one of the 12 calender/cyclical
animals. Does anyone know when this custom originated? Does anyone
know why? Since the terms for most of the Vietnamese calender animals
clearly come from Chinese, but not modern Mandarin, and thus don't
correspond very well to the everyday terms for those same animals but
the term for cat is the same as the everyday term does anyone know
whether the term for cat originally came into Vietnamse from a
different form of Chinese than the other animals? Maybe the Chinese
borrowed the modern Mandarin term for cat from Vietnamese since they
don't seem very dissimilar?
Any thoughts on any of the above points would be welcome.
Michele Thompson
Dept. of History
Southern Connecticut State University
From daniel.m.goodkind@census.gov Mon Jan 24 05:29:05 2005
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 08:28:01 -0500
From: daniel.m.goodkind@census.gov
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Lunar Calender Cats
Michelle -
I encountered this same question in my research on zodiacal birth timing
among Chinese (and other Asian) societies, and discussed it briefly in my
thesis.
A very general explanation for the switch in animals could be that
Vietnamese deliberately wanted to "personalize" their zodiac calendar, if
even in a small way, in contrast to the original Chinese. Note also that
the Thai zodiac calendar substitutes the Year of the Elephant for the Year of the PIg (tourists to Bangkok will note this from postcards and posters available from Jim Thompson's House).
As to the specific motivation, you would have to figure out when Vietnamese started to use the zodiac calendar (e.g., did Vietnamese originally use the Rabiit, and then only later switch to the Cat?).
I asked many people in Vietnam about the origins of the Cat Year, including fortune tellers, but none seemed to have a clue. My best guess is that it is related to the symbols of the original 60-year pre-zodiac Chinese calendar (I think this is what you were referring to below). The animal zodiac calendar evidently developed about 2000 years ago during China's Han dynasty, with the 12 zodiac animals and 5 elements (earth, wood , fire, water, metal) being "painted over" a pre-existing system of 12 earthly branches and 5 heavenly stems which were associated with Chinese characters. The fourth of the 12 branches is pronounced "mau" in most Chinese dialects, which rhymes coincidentally with the word for cat, in both Chinese and Vietnamese.
Perhaps that concidence provided some guideline for switching to the Cat?
Or could this point to some kind of mis-translation?! I am not sure.
Daniel
Daniel Goodkind,
Demographer
International Programs Center (Population Division)
Eurasia Branch
U.S. Census Bureau
tel (301) 763-6240
fax (301) 457-1539
"Tam Tai"
<hhtai@fas.harvar To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>
d.edu> cc:
Sent by: Subject: Re: Lunar Calender Cats
VSG-owner@u.washi
ngton.edu
01/24/2005 12:12
AM
Please respond to
vsg
There are rabbits in Vietnam. They're called tho?. The names of the zodiac animals actually are not the usual ones in either Chinese or Vietnamese.
Example: thin` (long, rong).
Hue-Tam
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tobias Rettig" <magic_rettig@hotmail.com>
To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 9:49 PM
Subject: Lunar Calender Cats
Dear Michele and List,
The explanation that I have come across in a (very) popular
English-language book on Chinese (not Vietnamese) astrological signs is
that the Vietnamese, not knowing rabbits (are there rabbits in Vietnam?)
opted for the cat instead.
I am not sure whether this is factually / historically / linguistically
correct, but this could be a starting point for more informed
explanations.
Tobias
From: Michele Thompson <thompsonc2@southernct.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Fwd: Calender Cats
From sinh.vinh@ualberta.ca Mon Jan 24 05:34:46 2005
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 06:33:55 -0700
From: Sinh Vinh <sinh.vinh@ualberta.ca>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Ma~o : Hares or Cats ?
Why is it that the Vietnamese have come to use Ma~o, the fourth of the
earthly branches, as a symbol of the Cat (Me`o) rather than a Hare
(Tho?)? This is a highly intriguing question, like numerous other things
Vietnamese....
To begin with, there are 2 Chinese characters for hares/rabbits, i. e.
ma~o (mao in Chinese pinyin) and tho^? (also pronounced tho?, tu in
Chinese pinyin). Tho^?/tho?, used by itself or with nguye^.t (moon),
also implies the moon.
If you open a Sino-Vietnamese dictionary and look for Ma~o, most of them
do not explain that Ma~o means hares/rabbits, but only indicate that it
is the fourth of the earthy branches, v.v. Strange indeed! Only a
Sino-Vietnamese dictionary by Nguye^~n To^n Nhan indicates its correct
meaning (i.e. "hare/rabbits").
For the sake of fun, let's open a Vietnamese dictionary. I first tried
the Tu+` ddie^?n tie^'ng Vie^.t, edited by Va(n Ta^n et al (Hanoi: Nxb
Khoa hoc Xa hoi, 1967). It explains: "Ma~o: cg. Me.o\. Chi thu+' tu+
trong 12 chi\. Gio+` ma~o\." ===> Nothing about the animal, but highly
suggestive because it reminds us that people also use tuo^?i me.o, na(m
me.o (Year of the Hare) in addition to tuo^?i ma~o and na(m ma~o\ ====>
phonetically, me.o is very close to me`o (cats). How many people out
there would know/care that the original meaning of Ma~o is
hares/rabbits? ===> To them, Ma~o/me.o ==> me`o would make more sense.
Let's try another Vietnamese dictionary. I have also tried a more
updated one, edited by the well respected Vie^.n Ngon ngu+~ ho.c (Hanoi
& Da Nang: Nxb Da Nang & Trung tam Tu+` ddie^?n ho.c, 1997). It says:
"Ky' hie^.u thu+' tu+, la^'y me`o la`m tu+o+.ng tru+ng" (the fourth
sign, using the Cat as a symbol) ==> it has become an accepted fact that
Ma~o is the year of the Cat, rather than the Year of the Hare!
>From the above example, one might speculate although Chinese characters
(chu+~ Ha'n) were used for a long time in VN, there were cases in which
the common folks simply neglected their original meaning (the semantic
component) and simply go by their sound (the phonetic component).
VS
-----Original Message-----
From: VSG-owner@u.washington.edu [mailto:VSG-owner@u.washington.edu] On
Behalf Of Tam Tai
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 10:13 PM
To: Vietnam Studies Group
Subject: Re: Lunar Calender Cats
There are rabbits in Vietnam. They're called tho?. The names of the
zodiac animals actually are not the usual ones in either Chinese or Vietnamese.
Example: thin` (long, rong).
Hue-Tam
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tobias Rettig" <magic_rettig@hotmail.com>
To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 9:49 PM
Subject: Lunar Calender Cats
From thompsonc2@southernct.edu Mon Jan 24 07:30:34 2005
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:26:23 -0500
From: Michele Thompson <thompsonc2@southernct.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Lunar Calender Cats
Dear Tobias and all,
Well there are certainly domestic rabbits raised for meat in Vietnam
and I sort of can't imagine that there aren't wild rabbits since it
seems like perfectly suitable rabbit territory but I admit that I
haven't seen a wild one there. So maybe this is popularly believed,
by the Chinese, but I can't imagine that it's correct.
cheers
Michele
From ProschanF@folklife.si.edu Mon Jan 24 08:44:49 2005
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 11:39:43 -0500
From: Frank Proschan <ProschanF@folklife.si.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Lunar Calender Cats
When doing linguistic research among Northern Mon-Khmer speakers (Kmhmu,
Khang, Odu, Mang, Ksing Mul, etc.) I have been struck that there does not
seem to be a stable old etymon for "rabbit/hare" as there are for almost all other animals commonly encountered in villages or forests. Most of these languages use a Vietnamese (Sino-VNese) or Tai loanword to denote this beast. Staying only in the rodent family, we do see ancient etyma for rat, bat, squirrel, etc.--so the absence of a core etymon for rabbit/hare would demand some explanation. From this suggestive evidence, a more serious linguist than I might wish to generate an argument that the rabbit was not commonly encountered by speakers of those languages in ancient times, when the languages evolved, and thus when they encountered it it was unfamiliar and they relied on a loanword. There are other speculative explanations: "tiger" is typically different among related languages, but this can be explained as a taboo on the name of a powerful and dangerous animal--perhaps
not so relevant to our gentle friend the rabbit. Yet another empirical case demanding more collaboration between linguists and naturalists.
Best,
Frank Proschan
Project Director
postal mail:
Center for Folklife and Cultural Heritage
Smithsonian Institution
PO Box 37012
Victor Building Suite 4100, MRC 0953
Washington, DC 20013-7012
office location and express services:
Center for Folklife and Cultural Heritage
750 9th Street N.W., Suite 4100
Washington DC 20560-0953
tel: 202-275-1607
fax: 202-275-1119
From jhannah@u.washington.edu Mon Jan 24 10:31:04 2005
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:28:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Joe Hannah <jhannah@u.washington.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Calender Cats
So, out of idle curiosity, I have to ask: why the Water Buffalo (in the
Vietnamese calendar) in place of the Ox (in the Chinese calendar)?
I have heard the geogrpahy/ecology argument -- (northern) China makes more use of oxen whereas Vietnam (and southern China) makes more use of water buffalo for farm work. But oxen are certainly present in Vietnam and commonly used to pull carts (if not for plowing).
Joe Hannah
Department of Geography
University of Washington, Seattle
From willpore@gwu.edu Mon Jan 24 11:28:44 2005
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:26:04 -0500
From: William Pore <willpore@gwu.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Calender Cats
Michele,
Interesting question. From my own reading, use of the hare/rabbit (tho)
in the Chinese/Vietnamese zodiac seems to have been of longstanding. In
his autobiography, Phan Boi Chau writes in Chinese that he was born in
the year of the hare (1868).He clearly uses the character for
hare/rabbit not cat.
Will
From sinh.vinh@ualberta.ca Mon Jan 24 12:48:30 2005
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:46:26 -0700
From: Sinh Vinh <sinh.vinh@ualberta.ca>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Calendar Cats
Hi Joe et al.
The Chinese characters (chu+~ Ha'n), devised by the Han people who then
inhabited around the Yellow River basin, did make a clear difference
between Ox (ngu+u in Sino-Vietnamese) and Water buffalo (thuy? ngu+u in
SV).
But when Vietnamese adopted the Chinese graphs/ideographs, ngu+u to them
was simply water buffalo (tra^u) and not Ox (bo`). They could not relate
to OX (bo`). In the romantic story "Ngu+u Lang and Chu+'c Nu+~", Ngu+u
Lang was after all a water buffalo boy. As they have in "ca dao":
Tu.c truye^`n tha'ng 7 mu+a nga^u,
Con tro+`i la^'y ddu+'a cha(n tra^u cu~ng thu+o+`ng.
In the Tale of Kie^`u, there are only tra^u, and no "bo`", e.g.
"DDa^`u tra^u ma(.t ngu+.a a`o a`o nhu+ xo^i" (line 578).
The gifted translator Tru+o+ng Cam Vu~ understood well that when
Nguye^~n Du says tra^u (water buffalo), he means Ox in Chinese, thus
when translating The Tale of Kie^`u into into Chinese, TCV simply put:
Ngu+u dda^`u ma~ die^.n the^' hung hung
Some Sino-Vietnamese dictionaries explained that "the Vietnamese mistook
tra^u for ngu+u". But I think the question is not such simple. For along
time, to the Vietnamese, Ngu+u by and large implies tra^u\. In chu+~
No^m (demotic stript), the Vietnamese do have 2 different characters for
"tra^u" and "bo`". In the Tale of Kie^`u written in chu+~ No^m, tra^u is
written by a combination of "ngu+u" (for meaning) and "la^u" for sound.
In the Sino-Vietnamese dictionary compiled by a group of Chinese
scholars at the Beijing Foreign Languages Publishing House (the edition
I have was published in 1994), the compilers are smart by explaining
"ngu+u" as "tra^u bo`" -- could be both or either way.
It might of interest to note that "jeans" used to be called "qua^`n co^
bo^`i" (lit. cow-boy pant) when I grew up in South Vietnam in the 1950s,
but now, the accepted Vietnamese term for jeans is "qua^`n bo`", and no
one would call it "qua^`n tra^u". I suspect there is an imported/modern
element (image) in things related to bo`, in contrast to tra^u, which is
entirely indigenous/native\.
About cat and hare/rabbit, it is interesting to note that me`o in
Sino-Vietnamese is mie^u, pronounced as mao in Chinese pinyin, very
similar to mao (ma~o as hare/rabbit), though the tone is different.
Best,
VS
-----Original Message-----
From bcampdvs@u.washington.edu Tue Jan 25 03:39:58 2005
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 03:38:36 -0800 (PST)
From: bcampdvs@u.washington.edu
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Calender Cats
Michele and VSGers:
I had a chance to ask Professor Nguyen Quang Hong at the Han-Nom Institute about the cat in the
Vietnamese calendar. He had two tentative explanations.
The first one has to do with studies of older phonologies of the language we call Vietnamese. Although
the Han-Viet pronunciation of the chu Han that represents hare in the Chinese calender is mao~ (mao3
in Chinese), it has two other readings according to Professor Hong. "meo." and "meo\" So one of the
other alternates is identical to the word for cat. So that's a hardcore philological answer that may point
to some possibilities.
His other explanation was that many "dan toc" changed elements of the standard lunar cycle to reflect
their own traditions and cosmologies. Rather than deviations from a model, there could have been
many elements coming together. He added that no one knows for certain about any of this, especially
about when the cat came into play for the Vietnamese calendar.
One last thing, the book I have been using to convert dates to and from the Gregorian calendar,
Nguyen Trong Binh's _Am Duong Lich 2000 Nam va Nien Bieu Lich su_ [NXB Khoa Hoc Xa Hoi, Ha Noi
1976] has a very interesting introduction that talks about changes to the can chi (stem and branch)
system, and the varying use of reign titles in Vietnamese history. No word about cats though.
bradley davis
From david.biggs@ucr.edu Tue Jan 25 09:14:30 2005
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 09:12:40 -0800
From: David A Biggs <david.biggs@ucr.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Calender Cats to Days of the Week
VSG-
This talk of cats has me thinking of a recurring question about days
of the week in Vietnam. How long have the terms for the seven-day
cycle (thu hai...thu bay...chu nhat) been in use and was there an
earlier form like the can chi system to describe days in the recurring
cycle?
D
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