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From: Liam C Kelley <liam@hawaii.edu>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Wed, Mar 12, 2008 at 10:08 PM
Dear list,
Heading off on a slight tangent, albeit one inspired by comments in this discussion, I've long wondered about the characters on Dong Ho paintings. They look to me like they are written by people who never learned how to read and write characters, but are simply trying to copy them, like someone would copy a drawing. They do not follow any calligraphic style (that I can tell), and they certainly don't look like hand-written characters that I am familiar with from Vietnamese manuscripts. I have some Dong Ho prints and many of the characters are indecipherable, and not because they are written in cursive, because cursive writing has a logic to it, and when you know it you can read characters in cursive. They frankly look like they are written by someone who doesn't know what s/he is doing.
So I'm curious, does anyone on the list know anything about this? Who writes the characters on Dong Ho paintings? Has s/he, or have they, been trained to read and write (classical) Chinese? If so, why do they write in a manner that does not look like the way Vietnamese used to write, when literacy in classical Chinese was the norm? Again, my guess is that the people doing it do not know how to read and write what they write on those prints. If that is the case, then it adds an interesting twist to the "revival" of this art form.
Liam Kelley
U. of Hawaii
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From: Grace Chew <gclchew@yahoo.co.uk>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 1:24 AM
Dear List:
Can anyone make out what the third character on the
Thay Coc picture is in the line (probably title)
"æ¤ u?˜V"? And what that character closest to the
table is as well?
"Drawing" Chu Han is not easy and carving the
characters on blocks even tougher. I am also inclined
to think that they were artists, not trained in
writing Chu Han like the scholars.
G
Best wishes,
Grace
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From: will pore <willpore@gmail.com>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 8:49 AM
Dear Grace,
Korean artisans carved the complete Buddhist Tripitaka on over 80,000
woodblocks in flawless, easy to read characters before 1400. A second
set of these woodblocks can still be seen at Haein Temple in Korea.
The Vietnamese characters we've been looking at on these panels are
merely vague scratches by comparison.
Will Pore
[Quoted text hidden]--
William F. Pore, Ph.D.
Department of History
Temple University
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From: Chung Nguyen <Chung.Nguyen@umb.edu>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 10:40 AM
Attachments: winmail.dat
I think Grace is most likely right here for the simple reason of economic constraints. To print the Tripitaka in woodblocks, artisans have to be able to carve the ideograms correctly; otherwise no one can read it. It's a form of high art. The whole project should be well funded, i.e. sufficient to pay for the more highly-skilled workers. For the Dong ho paintings, it's a low pay, local handicraft type of production, aiming at sales at the local market for the mass. As the paintings are inexpensive, the owners can't afford hiring well-educated craftsmen. I remember visiting Dong Ho village, and was charmed by its very homely village atmosphere.
Another factor could be the transition in Vietnam, vis-a-vis Korea, from the Sino-based writing script to the demotic script. In most villages, it'd be difficult to find someone who could write Chinese characters AND be willing to learn how to carve Dong Ho paintings.
-Chung
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From: Michele Thompson <thompsonc2@southernct.edu>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 12:23 PM
Dear Everyone,
I would agree with Liam on all points and I'd be very interested to hear if anyone knows how and by whom these are actually produced these days. Also is it possible that because these have become so much a part of the "tourist" trade that there are some produced in mass quantities like those we have been discussing but perhaps there are others produced with a higher level of calligraphy?
cheers
Michele
Michele Thompson
Dept. of History
Southern Connecticut State University
--------
From: T. Nguyen <nguyenthanhbl@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 12:46 PM
I think it is "oa" [Pinyin: wa]
Cheers,
Thanh Nguyen
will pore <willpore@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Grace,
Korean artisans carved the complete Buddhist Tripitaka on over 80,000
woodblocks in flawless, easy to read characters before 1400. A second
set of these woodblocks can still be seen at Haein Temple in Korea.
The Vietnamese characters we've been looking at on these panels are
merely vague scratches by comparison.
Will Pore
--------
From: jkirk <jkirk@spro.net>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 12:59 PM
The online bit about Dong Ho painted prints here http://tinyurl.com/25zbg3
says that the maker "Nguyen Dang Che can trace his family's involvement in
the print-making business back 20 generations. The walls of his small studio
are lined with over 100 carved blocks, some of which are 200 years old."
One way to find out about quality of the carved calligraphy would be if
someone went to the village and inspected the oldest carved wood templates.
Are the oldest ones any better than contemporary ones? The maker probably
would have some informative views on the subject as well.
Cheers, Joanna
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From: Nora Taylor <nthanoi04@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 1:07 PM
Joanna,
I know some things about Dong Ho prints myself. Dong
Ho village is now a UNESCO cultural heritage site.
They disburse some funds to Nguyen Dang Che and his
family to recarve the blocks that had disappeared
during the war. Woodblocks wear down after use and so
"new" ones would be sharper in quality than the old
ones. These prints are primarily sold to tourists in
shops and rarely "used" by Vietnamese as in the "old"
days when they were hung on doors and walls in
celebration of Tet.
You should look at Maurice Durand's Imagerie Populaire
Vietnamienne printed at EFEO in Paris. Philippe Papin
is reediting it with color plates based on recovered
ancient prints of all kinds. But if you want an
accurate reading of the "calligraphy" (which is carved
into the wood) you can consult the book. It has all
the text printed out. I am not sure where you are
based, but you can check your library or online.
As for Liam's observation about the quality of the
calligraphy, the fact that they are carved out of wood
make the characters more difficult to read and the
carvers would have copied the script from ancient
woodblocks and that knowledge is transmitted through
the generations. So, no formal training in "chinese"
per se.
Nora
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From: Bill Hayton <bill.hayton@bbc.co.uk>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 2:57 PM
Most households in Dong Ho seem to have moved into the votive offering
business. A paper washing machine anyone? Watching the motorbikes
leaving the village around Moon Festival laden down with vast mountains
of cardboard consumer items is an impressive site. Although, in another
sign of the times, some households seem to be simply folding pre-printed
cardboard 'flats' rather than making the offerings from scratch.
--------
From: jkirk <jkirk@spro.net>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 4:30 PM
Hi Nora,
Thanks for this citation by Durand. Do you happen to know when Philippe Papin plans to complete his re-edit and who will publish it? I would get his edition if I could. The original came out in 1960, so probably not easy to find, or anyway I want to own it not borrow it on ILL. The title reminds of another similar production, Centlivres & Centlivres-Dumont's Imageries populaires en Islam. Paris: Georg, 1997.
I am not looking into the calligraphy issue as I don't control either Chinese or Vietnamese, but my special interest is vernacular/folk/popular (whatever) arts, so when I visited VN in January and found some of these prints, naturally I got interested in them.
Perhaps various locations becoming World Heritage sites is good for some people living there, but there are deleterious side effects as well. January I was also in Laos, another such site, and found it overrun with tourists and its old quiet charm eroded. It was also inundated by plastic bags, part of the tourist shopaholicism encouraged by the creation of such sites.
Joanna
--------
From: jkirk <jkirk@spro.net>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 4:50 PM
Sorry--I was referring here to Luang Prabang, the former royal capital of Laos.
JK
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From: Nora Taylor <nthanoi04@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 4:56 PM
Johanna, Yes, Bill is right. And also, in regards to
the Chinese on the prints, it would have been carved
backwards in order for it to appear "normal" on the
print, in other words in reverse or negative in order
to make a positive print from it which may account for
the awkwardness of the writing.
Philippe Papin's book should appear soon. He emailed
me about it. I think June,
Nora
--------
From: jkirk <jkirk@spro.net>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 7:39 PM
Yes--I see the point about the carving issue--
But who is going to publish Papin's book???
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From: Grace Chew <gclchew@yahoo.co.uk>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, Mar 13, 2008 at 8:55 PM
But if the person is well-versed in ideograms, he'd
still be able to produce the correct character,
wouldn't he?
There seems to be some individual creativity involved
there. If you look at the printed words on the
painting of Thay Con Coc carefully, e.g. character æ¤
only has a minor part. The missing part is 'ŠL', which
didn't follow the original script. The artist seemed
to want to combine the cursive manuscript with the
'standard' manuscript, and although the final
character didn't suggest a logical, systematic way of
doing the cursive, most parts of the original (the
radicals) have correctly been produced.
Also, as Chung mentioned, it is a village/household
craft. Most of the time - I'd like to add here- the
job could have been delegated to the 'tho' who was
trained in carving but not calligraphy. I have a good
friend who fits into this example.
Grace
--------
From: Grace Chew <gclchew@yahoo.co.uk>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 2:55 AM
Good guess, Thanh.
But gosh! I wonder which ancient script it resembles?
Grace
--------
From: Nora Taylor <nthanoi04@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Date: Fri, Mar 14, 2008 at 10:21 AM
Sorry, either Les Indes Savantes or EFEO. I am trying
to find his email but I must have deleted that
information somehow.
Nora
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Grace Chew <gclchew@yahoo.co.uk>
date Mar 14, 2008 6:59 PM
subject RE: [Vsg] Query on reading - Dong Ho tangent-Clarification
Dear List:
Some words have been missed out in my earlier posting
(see below) which made my message unclear.
Sorry. The paragraph should have been:
There seems to be some individual creativity
involved there. If you look at the printed words on
the painting of Thay Con Coc carefully, e.g. character
æ¤ only has some minor parts missing. The missing part
is 'ŠL', and a dot which didn't follow the original
script...
G
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