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From: Nhung Tran <nhungtuyet.tran@utoronto.ca>
Sent: Friday, January 7, 2022 7:42 AM
To: Hue-Tam Tai <hhtai@fas.harvard.edu>; Markus Taussig <mtaussig@business.rutgers.edu>
Cc: vsg@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] "Hang Bethlem, or why Vietnamese love to put baby Jesus in a cave? (Anthony Morreale)" - a recap
Hi Everyone,
Sorry to chime in late, but there are not enough hours in the day. It's a topic that I 've done quite a bit of thinking and digging about in the last decade.
The story of the birth of Jesus is only brief in the bible, and comes from the apocryphal text known as the "Gospel of James." It is in the Protovangelium of James where we see reference to the birth of Jesus in a cave. Though it appears to have been important in the centuries after its emergence (from about the second century), elements of the story became wildly popular when it was incorporated in tho Jacabus de Voragine's Golden Legend, first published in the thirteenth century but became one of the most widely circulated books in the early modern era.
Because the texts attributed to Majorica's texts so clearly embellish those found in the Golden Legend and in the Bollandists' Acta Sanctorum, it's probably why this particular version became favored in the Vietnamese versions through the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries.
As for the stories of the cave, references to it appear in the Blessed Mother's Hagiography, as well as the catechism modeled after Bellarmine's famous one, often attributed to Maijorica.
There's a longer discussion about authorship which I won't get into here. However, in the catechism, to make it even more complex, there's an early reference to an apparition of the Blessed mother in a cave in the Philippines.
Dating is difficult, but I think I've found a version of the Acta Sanctorum written in the nom which either predates the first publication of the Acta Sanctorum in Antwerp in 1643, or at the very least, was produced around the same time.
Nhung
I wish to acknowledge this land on which the University of Toronto operates. For thousands of years it has been the traditional land of the Huron-Wendat, the Seneca, and the Mississaugas of the Credit. Today, this meeting place is still the home to many Indigenous people from across Turtle Island and we are grateful to have the opportunity to work on this land.
***********************
Nhung Tuyet Tran
Associate Professor
Department of History
On leave July 1-December 31, 2021
From: Hue-Tam Tai <hhtai@fas.harvard.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 7, 2022 6:57 AM
To: Markus Taussig <mtaussig@business.rutgers.edu>
Cc: vsg@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] "Hang Bethlem, or why Vietnamese love to put baby Jesus in a cave? (Anthony Morreale)" - a recap
Hi, every one
I consulted the French version of Wikipedia to verify my childhood memories of the Nativity scene in a stable. The history of the representation of the birth of Jesus allows for the birth in both a stable and a grotto.
Given this dual history, what is interesting to me is why, in Vietnam, the birth in a grotto is the overwhelmingly predominant representation. That must have to do with the introduction and spread of Catholic iconography since the sixteenth century. The late Jonathan Spence wrote a wonderful book about Matteo Ricci and China Perhaps one could be written about Girolamo Maiorica and Vietnam.
Hue-Tam Ho Tai
Harvard University emerita
From: Markus Taussig <mtaussig@business.rutgers.edu>
Sent: Friday, January 7, 2022 6:07 AM
To: vsg@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] "Hang Bethlem, or why Vietnamese love to put baby Jesus in a cave? (Anthony Morreale)" - a recap
Hi VSG friends,
I’ve enjoyed following the interesting discussion about Jesus Birth and caves in Vietnam—including the debate over whether the traditional placement of the birth in a cave is unique to Vietnam. I forwarded some of the discussion to my dad, Hal Taussig, who is a semi-retired scholar of the historical Jesus (formerly at Union Seminary in NYC) to get his take, which I think might be of interest to some here on this list and I’m pasting below:
*****
Yes, the baby Jesus piece is pretty interesting and wide open. There are just two Bible stories about Jesus's birth, and they disagree with each other; and most of the Bible does not seem to know or care. Beyond the Bible there are lots of other stories that disagree. Here are the outlines of the two biblical birth stories:
One in Matthew2:1-12: Born in a house in the city of Bethlehem, no date at all, visited by some magi/wise people/ (how many?); Mary, Joseph, and Jesus flee to Egypt to escape the governor who has started to kill all the babies.
Second in Luke 2:1-20: Born in a barn in Bethlehem at the time of an Roman empire wide census (no government record at all of such a massive event). Also the Luke story has none of the story of Matthew except that it is in Bethlehem. In Luke no visit to Jesus by "wise men", but some shepherds.
So there is every reason to think that there is no accurate record of Jesus's birth at all. Stories around the world in different countries are quite varied, and there are some other stories of a birth of Jesus in a cave.
*****
I also think of how even what one thinks of as a house or a barn is contextual and about the variety of dwellings carved into rocky mountainous terrain in the broader Middle East that still exist as amazing tourist sites. In other words, it seems to me we can be most sure that the setting did not look the way it’s usually presented in traditional American manger scenes. I admit that I’m also somewhat influenced by images from “Life of Brian”. :D
Hope everyone’s staying as safe, healthy, and sane as possible. Things are so crazy here in the US and I understand that an opening up Vietnam is now among the world’s hardest hit countries in terms of the pandemic’s mortality.
Cheers, Markus
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Markus Taussig
Associate Professor, Management & Global Business
1 Washington Park, Ofc. 1095, Newark, NJ 07102
Tel (Ofc): (+1) 973-353-2922
=========================================
From: Vsg <mailman-bounces@mailman11.u.washington.edu> On Behalf Of Tom Nguyen
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2022 1:17 PM
To: Hue-Tam Tai <hhtai@fas.harvard.edu>; Tuan Hoang <tuan.hoang@pepperdine.edu>
Cc: vsg@u.washington.edu;
Subject: Re: "Hang Bethlem, or why Vietnamese love to put baby Jesus in a cave? (Anthony Morreale)" - a recap
Hi anh H Tuan
I just scanned the manuscript of father Josepho Morrone (Lexicon Cochin-Sinense Latinum ad usum missionarium) handed over to Captain John White (1819) and he mentioned hang đá (where Jesus was born and where he was buried). This is consistent with Philip Binh's writings.
Relevant page copied from https://archive.org/details/c495.11d937.2lexicon/page/n65/mode/2up?view=theater
Cheers,
Nguyễn Cung Thông
From: Vsg <mailman-bounces@mailman11.u.washington.edu> On Behalf Of Thi Bay Miradoli
Sent: Thursday, January 6, 2022 7:25 AM
To: Tom Nguyen <nguyencungthong@yahoo.com>
Cc: vsg@u.washington.edu;
Subject: Re: "Hang Bethlem, or why Vietnamese love to put baby Jesus in a cave? (Anthony Morreale)" - a recap
US-based catholics do not put Jesus in a cave (I presume according to this thread), but this does not mean that this is a uniquely Vietnamese tradition. In fact, a lot of European catholics do.
Furthermore, there was a question about people worshiping in nature, such as caves. This is also a widespread catholic practice (and the practice of many other religions) throughout the world, except (as far as I have witnessed) in the US (maybe the rest of the Anglo-Saxon world as well?). I just feel that often we ask why something is unique to Vietnam but the actual question would be why is this not common in the US/Anglo-saxon world and why do we use the US/anglo world as a standard of normality?
Thi Bay Miradoli
New Jersey
Unaffiliated
From: Vsg <mailman-bounces@mailman11.u.washington.edu> On Behalf Of Tom Nguyen
Sent: Wednesday, January 5, 2022 2:59 PM
To: Hue-Tam Tai <hhtai@fas.harvard.edu>; Tuan Hoang <tuan.hoang@pepperdine.edu>
Cc: vsg@u.washington.edu;
Subject: "Hang Bethlem, or why Vietnamese love to put baby Jesus in a cave? (Anthony Morreale)" - a recap
Re " Hang Bethlem, or why Vietnamese love to put baby Jesus in a
cave? (Anthony Morreale)"
Hi anh H. Tuan,
Happy new year to all VSGers!
Just a recap of time line about "rock cave tradition" of the nativity scene in VN (with added info. from Philip Binh's writing)
1. 1942: Hải Linh's famous song "Đêm đông lạnh lẽo Chúa sinh ra đời nằm trong Hang Đá nơi máng lừa ..."
2. 1884: Trương Vĩnh Kýs definition of "La sainte crèche" (literally the Holy manger, in his French Vietnamese dictionary) with added explanation "trong Hang Đá" (in a rock cave, perhaps a 'subconscious' display)
3. late 18th century-early 19th century: Philip Bỉnh's hand-written texts - detailed description of Hang Đá (rock cave) in Jesus birth story (see pasted text below)
4. 17th century: Maiorica Nom texts regularly mention rock cave (Nativity scene) versus de Rhodes Nativity scene narrative in chữ quốc ngữ/Phép Giảng Tám Ngày (without Hang Đá, common feature is the manger). Textual details indicate two different approaches to evangelism in An Nam: R model (de Rhodes) versus M model (Maiorica),etc.
Just a very brief note for your info.
Nguyen Cung Thong
From Truyện về đức Chúa Giê Su và các thánh tông đồ ... Mã sô Borg.tonch.16 (thư viện Tòa Thánh La Mã)
From: Tom Nguyen <nguyencungthong@yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, December 24, 2021 2:15 PM
To: Hue-Tam Tai <hhtai@fas.harvard.edu>
Cc: vsg-request@mailman11.u.washington.edu; vsg@u.washington.edu; tuannyriver@gmail.com; dieuhien.edu@gmail.com; vsg-owner@mailman11.u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Vsg Digest, Vol 511, Issue 4
Hi chi Hue,
I really like your use of the word motif ilo model (R model versus M model)! The way R (de Rhodes) and M (Maiorica) describe Jesus birthplace may reflect somehow their profound belief and background (A). Just a picture for your viewing from Wikipedia (note the obvious cave scenery):
Below is "The Presepio" from Roma (Italy) for your quick comparison
BR,
Nguyễn Cung Thông
(A) I must posit a reminder here that Portuguese and Vietnamese are the two languages that (I know so far) still employ the naming of days of the week according to their sequential order (from Medieval Roman Catholics): the first day (the Lorf's day ~ (ngày thứ nhất > Chúa nhật), the second day (ngày thứ hai) ... ... the seventh day (ngày thứ bảy).
From: Hue-Tam Tai <hhtai@fas.harvard.edu>
Sent: Friday, December 24, 2021 5:57 AM
To: Tom Nguyen <nguyencungthong@yahoo.com>
Cc: vsg-request@mailman11.u.washington.edu; vsg@u.washington.edu; tuannyriver@gmail.com; dieuhien.edu@gmail.com; vsg-owner@mailman11.u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Vsg Digest, Vol 511, Issue 4
I had not thought about this issue before Tuan posted the article with the fabulous pictures. Thanks to Tom Nguyen for pointing out the different teachings of de Rhodes and Maiorica
I wonder what their different origins made to Vietnamese beliefs in the circumstances of Jesus' birth.
Despite de Rhodes birth in the papal city of Avignon ( not France) and speculation that he came from Rhodes in Greece,his wikipedia entry suggests that on his paternal side he came from Spain and may have had Jewish ancestors (could they have converted to Catholicism the previous century because of the Inquisition?).
As for Maiorica, he was from Portugal.
Given the division of the Vietnamese bishoprics between Spain and Portugal, could we ascribe the popularity of the "birth in a cave " motif to the greater spread of Maiorica's teachings in Dang Trong and the diminished severity of Catholic persecutions in the 19th century outside the north (see Makino Motonori on the different application of Minh Mang's edict in Nam Dinh and Nghe An)?
Just a thought on Christmas eve.
Hue Tam Ho Tai
Harvard University emerita
From: Tom Nguyen <nguyencungthong@yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, December 24, 2021 3:42 AM
To: vsg@u.washington.edu; vsg-request@mailman11.u.washington.edu; Hue Tam Tai <huetamtai@gmail.com>; tuannyriver@gmail.com; dieuhien.edu@gmail.com; mchale@gwu.edu; vsg-owner@mailman11.u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Vsg Digest, Vol 511, Issue 4
A page from Petit Dictionnaire annamite francais by Truong Vinh Ky (1884): the extended explanation "manger in a rock cave" as the birthplace of Jesus. The literal meaning of "La sainte crèche" is just "the holy manger".
Nguyen Cung Thong
From: Tom Nguyen <nguyencungthong@yahoo.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2021 10:19 PM
To: vsg@u.washington.edu; vsg-request@mailman11.u.washington.edu; Hue Tam Tai <huetamtai@gmail.com>; tuannyriver@gmail.com; dieuhien.edu@gmail.com; mchale@gwu.edu; vsg-owner@mailman11.u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Vsg Digest, Vol 511, Issue 4
Hi all,
There are at least two narratives of Jesus nativity scene from early texts: 1) one from de Rhodes’s Phep Giang Tam Ngay and 2) one from Maiorica’s Nom texts (viz. Thien Chua Thanh Mau, quyen thuong). I will name model R (R version of Jesus nativity scene) for de Rhodes text and model M (M version for Jesus nativity scene) for Maiorica texts (A). It is interesting that both Jesuit priests Maiorica and de Rhodes graduated from similar Jesuit training tradition and of the same group (and same generation) despatched to SouthEast Asia for evangelism. However, they havedescribed rather different versions of Jesus nativity scenes as written in de Rhodes’s Phep Giang Tam Ngay versus Maiorica’s Nom texts. R version refers to all full hostels in Bethlehem and hence (not-so-well-off) Joseph/Mary have to deliver Jesus in a manger. M version refers Jesus birthplace as “a rock cave with a length of 28 meters, a width of 8 meters and a height of just fitting a person” (translated from Nom text “Thien Chua Thanh Mau, quyen thuong” – page 198, note that the unit is in old Vietnamese length unit which is not the same as current metric unit). M version seems to be gaining popular until present days (possible due to penetration level of Nom texts).
My quick reflection on this query,
Nguyen Cung Thong (Melbourne, Australia)
(A) There are various versions even in each model (nativity scenes), depending on what Christian faith and how you read the bible(s),etc.
From: Anthony Morreale <amorreale22@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2021 8:49 PM
To: Tuan Hoang <tuannyriver@gmail.com>
Cc: Hoang t. Dieu-Hien <dieuhien.edu@gmail.com>; Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Hang Bêlem, or why Vietnamese love to put baby Jesus in a cave?
Hi all,
The article does mention that the traditional site of Jesus’ birth, the Church of the Nativity, is a consecrated grotto and even mentions that St. Francis’s first nativity scene was set in a cave. It makes me wonder when the tradition of portraying the nativity scene as a stable began…
Best,
Anthony Morreale
UC Berkeley PhD Candidate.
From: Tuan Hoang <tuannyriver@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2021 7:11 PM
To: Hoang t. Dieu-Hien <dieuhien.edu@gmail.com>
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Hang Bêlem, or why Vietnamese love to put baby Jesus in a cave?
There's something to each of the things in this thread... Since reading the article, I also found the term hang đá (cave) in some old sources. From 1919: vì khi Đức Mẹ sinh Đ. C. G. nơi hang đá thành Bê-lem, thì có Thiên thần xuống hát mầng tán tạ khen Chúa.
My guess is that the image of "birth in a cave" was impressed upon Vietnamese Catholics early and often. The tradition might have begun elsewhere but, perhaps, conveniently aligned to their familiarity of caves and grottos in folktales and the physical world. Besides--and I owe this insight to Hue-Tam Ho Tai--there weren't "stables" in Vietnam back then (except for horses at race tracks), were there?
Ironically, it's likely that Jesus was born neither in a cave nor a stable/barn, but at a house's lower level that was used for work during the day and sheltering livestock at night. All the same, let's admire Vietnamese employment of different materials in constructing these nativity caves: tin foil, plastic, tarp, metal, even grocery brown bags as Dieu-Hien said. I hope you still have a photo of that rudimentary nativity scene. 🤓
Tuan Hoang
Pepperdine University
On Wed, Dec 22, 2021 at 3:45 PM Hoang t. Dieu-Hien <dieuhien.edu@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you, Thi Bay, for this insight. What you said makes a lot of sense. I have had the same question as you, Tuan. I am guessing that it had to do with the version of the bible that was translated.
I have fond memories of the early days in the U.S. when we poor starving refugee college students rumpled up supermarket brown paper bags. Then we sprayed paint it white for snow and decorated the grotto with handmade Christmas trees, figurines, and streamers. Our Christmas presents for each other were our presence, our togetherness, because many of us did not have a family to go home to here in the U.S.
Happy Holidays to all,
Dieu-Hien
University of Washington affiliate
From: Thi Bay Miradoli <thibay.miradoli@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2021 2:56 PM
To: Shawn McHale <mchale@gwu.edu>
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>; Tuan Hoang <tuannyriver@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Hang Bêlem, or why Vietnamese love to put baby Jesus in a cave?
There are two nativity versions of which I know (and probably many more) one that Gesus was born in a cave and one that he was born in a stable. It is not uncommon in Mediterranean countries to keep animals in caves, hence there could be a cave with the containers of animal feed (not sure what they are called) typical of nativity scenes. It is also not uncommon for homes, hence stables, to be built against the mountain and retaining the cave-like rock walls. So this is not a uniquely Vietnamese tradition. Many Italians build cave-like nativity scenes.
Thi Bay Miradoli
Unaffiliated
From: Shawn McHale <mchale@gwu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2021 2:42 PM
To: Tuan Hoang <tuannyriver@gmail.com>
Cc: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Hang Bêlem, or why Vietnamese love to put baby Jesus in a cave?
Tuân,
It would be interesting to see if this Catholic practice just built on pre-existing Vietnamese/ Southeast Asian worship in caves. For example, the Chùa Hương in the north, a pilgrimage site to Phật Bà Quán Thế Âm Chùa Hương is in a cave. Go down to the Mekong delta and into Cambodia, and you find grottos used to venerate pre-Angkorian statues or other objects, many of which are Hindu or early Mayahana Buddhist, and "remade" into modern Buddhist statues.
Shawn McHale
George Washington University
From: Tuan Hoang <tuannyriver@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2021 11:53 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: [Vsg] Hang Bêlem, or why Vietnamese love to put baby Jesus in a cave?
https://vietcetera.com/en/why-vietnamese-love-to-put-baby-jesus-in-a-cave-at-christmas
Dear List-
Here's a fun write-up about the popularity of the nativity cave in Vietnam. There are many photos plus a couple of quotes from yours truly.
All the same, I don't know enough to trace the exact origin of its popularity among Vietnamese. And the popularity is massive and long-standing. Even in the diaspora, some refugees back then and immigrants today would construct nativity scenes as caves rather than stables that are the norm in Western countries.
Holiday cheers!
Tuan Hoang
Pepperdine University
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